It was advertised as up to 45mbps in a 10mhz channel. It depends on your TDD ratio though. In real life we were getting 30-35Mbps, but we were fussy about getting a minimum target signal level. I don’t think we could get more than 12mbps to a single subscriber, and I think that was a limitation of the CPE. One other thing is the CPE had two DL chains, but only one UL chain.
I don’t recall the max number of CPE, but it’s irrelevant because you’ll be maxing out bandwidth long before you hit that number. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> on behalf of Dev <d...@logicalwebhost.com> Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2024 4:28:25 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works Anyone know how much speed you can get through them on a 10MHz channel, and how many subs each will handle? On Dec 1, 2024, at 6:06 AM, Mathew Howard <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote: Yeah, the PMP320 should only be using 3650-3700, so if nobody else is using CBRS in the area, 3550-3650 would be unused (that's a big if, obviously). I would definitely consider those 100 subs to be a liability with negative value. On Sat, Nov 30, 2024, 6:16 PM Ken Hohhof <khoh...@kwom.com<mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote: I think pre-CBRS with an NN license, we could use 3650-3700. That’s what we did with our 450 gear before CBRS, and our one Purewave WiMax basestation. 450i and 450m APs can do 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 or 40 MHz channels although given CBRS orientation around 10 MHz grants it doesn’t make much sense to use the channels that don’t align on the standard 10 MHz raster. The performance is the same as in 5 GHz, all things being the same. There are no PALs in 3650-3700 so it is permanently GAA. In 3550-3650, the SAS will kick you to a different channel if a PAL holder goes on the air. Personally I think it is risky to assume you can get 3 or 4 contiguous CBRS channels but you can try. There is also the issue of coordinating timing with any cellular LTE operators since they may use all available GAA spectrum and will trash your upstream. If you have no other WISPs or cellular companies in your area using CBRS, life could be good. But if all your subs are nearby with clear LOS, 6 GHz could be even better. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Dev Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2024 5:50 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works According to one data sheet for the 320s, they operate normally between 36140 and 36740 (if I’m reading that right), is there space to run 450M’s with any speed outside of those frequencies with CBRS GA licenses anyway? On Nov 30, 2024, at 2:10 PM, Ken Hohhof <khoh...@kwom.com<mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote: > Asset sale indeed, very creative accounting I think has been going on, don’t > want that liability. Reason why not to buy the company is in case they didn’t pay their tower rent or taxes for years, or they have general liability claims against them, or other things that could come out of the woodwork and become your nightmare. One other thing to watch out for is prepays. If they got most of their customers to prepay annually, then on average you will be providing 6 months of service for no revenue. This is a bigger risk if you do a cash purchase rather than X% of revenue for Y months. > Is Tarana THAT much better than 450 AP’s in 3.6? I have no personal knowledge. If you ask Tarana, it has almost magical abilities. One of those seems to be convincing government agencies handing out grants that you can deliver 100/20 service without fiber. I’m a skeptic ever since I got burned on the WiMax hype (not PMP320 though). Maybe it is magic, who knows, not me. Ask a Tigger, not an Eeyore. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Dev Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2024 2:59 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works PMP 320 with 10MHz channels, is that still even possibly legal? Don’t know what throughput you can get from that. I also think that running these wherever their 10MHz channel would have to cut into the channel widths they can get on their 3.6 450 APs? Asset sale indeed, very creative accounting I think has been going on, don’t want that liability. How much are 450m subs in 3.6 these days? We’ve already used most of the 5GHz, looking at 6. Is Tarana THAT much better than 450 AP’s in 3.6? Also, I still might have a channel plan problem if the old gear is still up. On Nov 30, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Ken Hohhof <khoh...@kwom.com<mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote: PMP320 was WiMax, right? How many years has that been EOL? I suspect the performance isn’t that great either. Do those customers have no other choice and that’s why they haven’t switched? Seems like with Starlink and 5G Home Internet and other WISPs the customer base would be dwindling. That sounds like the WISP equivalent of a Superfund site. The value of the equipment is negative by however much it will cost to decommission and dispose of the equipment. I would ask, if you do a buyout, what exactly are you buying? Equipment? Customer list? Tower sites? Spectrum licenses? Fiber feeding the towers? You might find that the value of the assets is zero or negative, and you’d be doing the seller a favor by taking it off his hands for $1. Given there might be other shady things going on, don’t buy the business, do an asset purchase. Which comes back to the question, are the assets worth anything? Could you overbuild him and then come to an agreement where he tells all the customers the business is closing at X date and recommends they contact this new WISP (you)? What he gets is a few more months revenue and doesn’t have angry customers at his door with torches and pitchforks. And is there a reason why it needs to be done in 3 GHz and not 5 or 6 GHz? If there is a valid reason why only 3 GHz is suitable, I guess Cambium 450 maybe makes sense if you are looking to temporarily collocate sectors using 5 ms frame. But otherwise, you could also look at Tarana or LTE. Of course those would be even more expensive. Since they never switched to CBRS, I won’t ask if they bought any PALs. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2024 9:08 AM To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Cc: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works Ugh is right. Yes, they are not operating legally in CBRS. Regards, Jeff Jeff Broadwick CTIconnect 312-205-2519 Office 574-220-7826 Cell jbroadw...@cticonnect.com<mailto:jbroadw...@cticonnect.com> On Nov 29, 2024, at 9:46 PM, Dev <d...@logicalwebhost.com<mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote: So they have around 100 old 3.6 subs sitting out there, even if you did a swap to 450 subs in the 3.6 that’s still around $30K in swaps plus labor, ugh, assuming you have enough 450 APs to handle all the subs. Did someone say liability? Oh, also, if anyone complains they’d have to come off the air right away, no? On Nov 23, 2024, at 9:34 AM, <ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> <ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> wrote: Wow, access servers. Now that takes me back. Maybe 1991. I decided to use a MC68360 mcu to receive a T1 and some kind of Rockwell DSP to receive the data stream and be a modem. It would have been a 24 circuit dial up modem fed with a T1, the 360 was the first MCI I knew of with a native hardware ethernet port. I shelved it in favor of building some fax spy hardware (using the same chips but converting to E1) for some French semi intelligence related outfit to be used in Northern Africa and the middle ease. I loved the project. But I should have finished the modem. Others eventually did the same thing and were very successful. From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2024 10:23 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works Regarding dialup, we had 3 or 4 Ascend MAX4000 servers in Chicago and one in our WISP service area. We kept that one for awhile and gave free accounts to WISP customers as a backup in case of an outage, but abandoned that plan because nobody used it. 56 kbps was considered so slow as to be useless, people would drive into town and use WiFi at a coffee shop rather than use dialup. It’s getting that way now if one of our licensed backhauls goes down or has rain fade, it doesn’t make sense to fall back to a 5 GHz backup link with less capacity. If people can’t stream, in their view they have no Internet. Almost better not to use the backup link. Plus of course everybody starts running speedtests and making things worse. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of castarritt Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2024 9:32 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works Yeah, 50 subs on a 900 and 100+ on a 2.4 FSK was perfectly fine, then Netflix decided to change their business model from mailing DVDs to streaming. On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 8:02 PM Ken Hohhof <khoh...@kwom.com<mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote: I hope they were doing wholesale dialup, not running their own access servers. We dumped dialup in 2009. It was a race to the bottom, the going price I think was $6.95/mo and if you were at $6.96 you got no customers. And you had to spend half your revenue on Google ads to get the customers. I think we still have 2 900 MHz customers on one Cambium AP. I can't believe WISPs used to have like 50 subs per 900 MHz AP, at like $50/mo ARPU. And those weren't even the 450i APs, they were FSK or Ubiquiti. Well, smartgrid took care of that. -----Original Message----- From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Dev Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 6:05 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works The good news is they recently retired the two last dial-up customers! I didn’t know that still existed. They finally migrated the last customer off their 900MHz, I think. The rest of the diligence should be a fun-filled mystery I’m guessing. > On Nov 22, 2024, at 3:59 PM, t...@3dsc.co<mailto:t...@3dsc.co> wrote: > > Yeah almost all the 450 except some of the very first versions are CBRs > capable. If they still have pmp320s install there is a small chance that it > is running legaly, but not likely I had a customer that had an extended > grandfatherd license that was allowed to continue for a period of time while > they were transitioning. However its not likely. > > In this situation I would typicaly value these customers as negative for > asuming the liability or at least they would be removed from the valuation I > would recomend requireing them to be disabled before closing the deal. > > > On 11/22/24 5:48 PM, Mathew Howard > <mhoward...@gmail.com<mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> I'm fairly certain that all 450 hardware is CBRS capable, so that's just >> going to be a matter of upgrading firmware and getting everything properly >> configured and registered. >> I don't think any wimax gear is CBRS capable. >> At least some (probably most) LTE stuff can be upgraded to CBRS. >> If it's a couple of old wimax APs with a small number of customers, it's >> probably not that big of a deal, if it's hundreds of customers... yikes. >> On Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 3:57 PM Ken Hohhof <khoh...@kwom.com >> <mailto:khoh...@kwom.com<mailto:khoh...@kwom.com%C2%A0%3cmailto:khoh...@kwom.com>>> >> wrote: >> If it is Cambium 450, we switched all of ours from Part 90 / NN to >> CBRS and I don't remember having to change any hardware. Other 3.65 >> equipment like a Purewave WIMAX system and some Ubiquiti stuff and >> another brand I don't recall, those were forklift upgrades. >> That was like 5 years ago though. I know because my CPI cert is >> about to expire. >> ---- Original Message ---- >> From: "Dev" __ >> Sent: 11/22/2024 3:35:58 PM >> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" __ >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuing obsolete equipment that still works >> Also, we’d have to figure out how long it would take to swap them, >> trying to get a count of how much of a job this might be, i.e. how >> many subs. >> > On Nov 22, 2024, at 1:31?PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists >> > <jeffl...@att.net >> > <mailto:jeffl...@att.net<mailto:jeffl...@att.net%C2%A0%3cmailto:jeffl...@att.net>>> >> > wrote: >> > >> > If it’s 3.65 that isn’t SAS capable, you are buying a large legal >> > liability. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Jeff >> > >> > Jeff Broadwick >> > CTIconnect >> > 312-205-2519 Office >> > 574-220-7826 Cell >> > jbroadw...@cticonnect.com<mailto:jbroadw...@cticonnect.com> >> > <mailto:jbroadw...@cticonnect.com> >> > >> >> On Nov 22, 2024, at 4:26?PM, Dev <d...@logicalwebhost.com <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com%0b>>> >> <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> ?I think some may be in the old 3.6GHz, which is more of an issue >> >> because it gets in the way of the new 450 3.6GHz radio channel >> >> plan, so hoping not too many subs out there. >> >> >> >>> On Nov 22, 2024, at 12:11?PM, Steve Jones >> >>> <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> >>> <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com<mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com%C2%A0%3cmailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> 0 value on equipment >> >>> acquisition value on customer >> >>> cost of doing business on swap >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 12:32?PM Dev <d...@logicalwebhost.com <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com%0b>>> >>> <mailto:d...@logicalwebhost.com>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Looking at purchasing a WISP that has old wireless equipment >> >>> that’s no longer supported but happy customers connected to >> >>> it. How do you set a value on a customer you know you’re >> >>> going to have to swap client radios on and point to a >> >>> different AP, hopefully on the same tower? >> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >> >>> AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >> >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >>> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >>> >> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >> >>> AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >> >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <http:// <http://%0b/>>> >>> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>> >> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> >> AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <http:// <http://%0b/>>> >> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>> >> > -- > AF mailing list >> > AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <http:// <http://%0b/>>> > af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>> >> -- AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <http:// <http://%0b/>>> af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>> > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com ________________________________ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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