If frost depth is 36-48” in the region wouldn’t an 18” deep conduit still heave? We see sidewalk blocks lifted out of place on cold days, and if someone doesn’t put the sliding junction on a riser you’ll see conduit shove through a box like a spear.
It’s wet here if that makes a difference. NY would be a rain forest if it was warmer. ….and yeah replace every pole sounds like they want you to upgrade their plant for them. I don’t know if they think you have infinite pockets, or maybe they just don’t really want you there. In NY the PSC rules say that the Elco & LEC are required to share pole access with us, but they have to use a prescribed cost recovery formula for pole rental cost, and they’re not allowed to earn profit on the applications, engineering, or make-ready. It’s crossed my mind that if they’re not allowed to make money on us then we only offer them hassles and liabilities. In which case, anything they do to make joint use of plant more difficult and expensive would deter people who don’t have the time and money to deal with it, and therefore reduce those hassles and liabilities. Pure speculation on my part, but I think it’s a perspective that makes some of their policies suddenly make sense. -Adam From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2024 11:11 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ?ADSS? I had one small town owned power company want me to replace every pole for make ready. The Kentucky microtrench was really nanotrench. Now-a-days microtrench puts the conduit 6”+ below the bottom of the asphalt. Trenches are typically 12-16” deep with flowfill on top. They don’t heave. From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2024 6:30 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ?ADSS? It all depends. The wildcard on aerial is the make-ready. Installing aerial cable is nearly always cheaper than underground, but the make-ready work can easily flip that around. You can’t attach in violation of NESC clearances (–well you *can*, but you’re not *allowed*. I don’t want to get into it, but having seen it happen enough times I can say there are many circumstances where it would benefit you to install in violation now and fix it later (or never)). If they just need to trim a drip loop on the transformer to give you more clearance then it might be only a few hundred dollars, but a pole replacement starts at 10 grand. I have seen six figure quotes to replace one pole. I recall a deployment where the elco’s engineering contractor called for 800 poles out of 1000 to be replaced. Sometimes it’s their own problem and the make ready is at the Elco’s or Telco’s expense, but if the pole is otherwise perfectly fine and just needs more room for your cable then you’re paying for it. Even if it’s someone else’s expense it still costs you time. When going into a new market now you have to assess the poles and generalize or guess at how much make-ready you’ll have to do. You’re probably not going to take measurements on every pole, but you do a visual drive-by inspection and a take measurements on a statistical sample. Or you might know HDD is reliably $x/foot and therefore easier to make plans around, so maybe you just do that so you don’t have so many surprises. If you’re in conditions where you can microtrench or vibratory plow then you’ll probably be happy with the price of that. You just have to make sure you’re getting an accurate assessment. We had an engineer from down south claim he could plow most of our deployment, but he was talking about 18” depth. Some of the managers got really excited about the cost savings, and I had to burst their bubble by asking the guy about frost heave. He responded, “Frost….Heave?” Apparently he’d never heard of it. I’m sure people have heard about Google’s microtrenching in Kentucky some years back. Apparently they should have used an epoxy backfill to keep the cable in its groove, and they used normal flowable fill instead and the frost pushed all their cables out of the road. Short answer is underground might or might not be cheaper in any given situation. For reliability of aerial I’ll take strand & lash any day of the week. A tree branch won’t break the strand. If something does get broken it’s relatively easy to find it and fix it. Underground may be less likely to get hit by something, but you may be excavating whenever you have to fix something. With either one you have to make sure you have the resources available to maintain it. If you paid a contractor to bury facilities then make sure you have the ability to redo what they did so you can make a repair, or that you have a contractor you can summon on short order. -Adam From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof Sent: Monday, October 21, 2024 3:14 PM To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ?ADSS? Maybe it's because I'm in the midwest and we have actual dirt. But other than maybe crossing a river, I've only seen the big companies trench or bore their backbone fiber, no aerial except some FTTH. Is it because they have more money than brains, or do they know something? I look at the number of power outages caused by vehicles taking out utility poles. Add the windstorms and ice storms. Seems like aerial might be cheaper upfront but more expensive over the long term, and less reliable. I mean, maybe it's quicker to splice. Or maybe not if you have to wait for the power company to say it's safe and if they have to set a new pole. We've never done fiber so I don't know. ---- Original Message ---- From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> Sent: 10/21/2024 1:53:50 PM To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ?ADSS? Truth be told, I’ve never actually done ADSS. I’ve been told by a couple of different people that it wasn’t worth the trouble. They cited it being more expensive and more difficult to work with. We can do strand and lash pretty fast. At the end of the day I guess it doesn’t matter. By the time you get through pole licensing, permits, and make-ready installing the cable is practically free by comparison. -Adam From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf Of Jason McKemie Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2024 11:20 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] “ADSS” I exclusively use ADSS for my aerial plant. Much easier to put up, and you don't have to deal with strand or lashing. The option for having it in the power space can be nice as well. The attachment hardware is similar to what you use for guy wire dead ends, along with what you show above for straighter spans where you don't need fiber access, it is pretty specific to the cable size. The hardware is a bit pricey, not too bad though. On Saturday, October 19, 2024, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote: > When I search for ADSS cable I get this type: > </mail/u/0/s/?view=att&th=192a7b655b7dd5fd&attid=0.0.1&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1> > > They attach with hangers that grip a wide area around the cable like this one: > </mail/u/0/s/?view=att&th=192a7b655b7dd5fd&attid=0.0.2&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1> > > When you say ADSS that’s what I’m picturing. > That attachment hardware is expensive. The cable itself is expensive. I’ve > never worked with it but everyone says it’s more difficult. You use it > because you can get the fiber count of an OSP cable without having a strand. > Some Elco’s will allow it in the power space. You need installers qualified > to work in the power space, but sometimes people find that preferable to make > ready to make room in the comm space. > So in my mind ADSS is a specific thing with a specific purpose. I suspect > drop cable predates that stuff and people are applying the term to drop cable > retroactively because most aerial drop cable meets the literal definition of > the words. Usually being the important word there because you can order > service drop cable which isn’t all dielectric and self supporting. > > Get Outlook for iOS > ________________________________ > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > on > behalf of Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net> > > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2024 4:31:04 PM > To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <af@af.afmug.com > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] “ADSS” > > What does the manufacturer have to say? > > On 10/19/24 08:48, Adam Moffett wrote: >> There’s something driving me nuts lately. >> >> In your minds, does the term ADSS apply to *any* non-conducting, self >> supporting cable? Or does it apply more specifically to an OSP cable >> a central strength member and a concentric layer of aramid under the >> jacket? >> >> There’s an entire department at our company which keeps referring to >> 12F loose tube service drop cable as “ADSS”. I tried explaining that >> it’s not the same thing, and they’ve argued that it is. My position >> is that if I order an aerial service drop cable without any metallic >> components then it meets the literal meaning of “All Dielectric Self >> Supporting”, but that ADSS refers more narrowly to a specific cable >> which has different attachment hardware and different installation >> methods. I’ve further suggested that calling drop cable “ADSS” is >> going to cause confusion among vendors and contractors if it hasn’t >> already. >> >> Am I the crazy one? >> > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > _____ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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