Re: [AFMUG] [ External ] Re: Cambium LTE

Adam Moffett Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:54:23 -0800

I've been told the attenuation from foliage in 3.5ghz is going to beabout 15db per 100m. Obviously that really depends on what/specifically/ is in the way, but I think that figure lines up with myobservations in the field. It means you can get through trees at asteep angle to a high tower, or you can penetrate a wind break or thetrees lining a suburban street. You're not literally going to getthrough a forest whether it's LTE or Wimax or anything else.

I believe LTE does have some "magic" to it. The channel space isdivided into small subcarriers and the time slots are divided into (Ithink) 125us chunks. The intersection of one time slice and onesubcarrier is a resource block. The UE/CPE sends back Channel QualityIndicators (CQI) telling the eNB/Base Station the quality of theresource blocks it's receiving. Then the Base Station can considerwho's able to receive a resource block before allocating them andthereby not waste airtime on resource blocks you won't get and thenconsequently it can waste less airtime on retransmits. You'll see thisas better jitter and packet loss compared to another product in the samelocation.

When you have trees in the way you'll get attenuation no matter whichproduct you use, but LTE seems to give you a more consistent outcomewith nLOS than other stuff does. It's an /incremental/ improvement overWimax in that regard, and the top end of performance is a lot higherthan Wimax so a UE with good signal could actually impress you.

That LTE "magic" is definitely a part of the puzzle, along with thepower, noise, etc that you mention. To reiterate, it's an /incremental/improvement over Wimax. If Wimax didn't work at a site, LTE won'teither. We had a some places where Wimax was on the bleeding edge (like-85 to -90 RSSI) and LTE didn't work at all, so we actually lost ahandful of customers in the transition from Wimax. This was worth it inthe long run because at sites where Wimax had a good signal, LTE wasbetter....and frankly you didn't want those CPE with garbage signalsanyway.

If you believed all the hype from a guy who's name rhymed with "bleary"then you were probably disappointed with LTE, but if you go inunderstanding what you'll get then I think you'll find it's a usefultool to have.

As an aside, I'm glad to see Ericsson and Cambium getting into thisspace and I'm hoping the competition will raise the bar for quality. Frankly, quality has been the biggest problem with the existing playersin LTE for WISPs.


-Adam


On 2/27/2020 12:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

For years there has been enthusiasm for the idea that 3.5 GHz issuitable for NLOS propagation in a way that doesn’t apply to other midband spectrum like 2.4, 2.5 or 5 GHz. Initially is wasn’t clear whattype of NLOS people meant – urban clutter or foliage – but I thinkit’s pretty clear people are talking about foliage.

Why do people expect this? Is it the frequency, or the protocol likeWiMAX and now LTE? Or no theoretical basis, just it works don’t ask why?

I can think of several possible explanations, not sure if any of theseare why people associate 3.65 GHz LTE with NLOS.

- 3.65 GHz somehow is absorbed less by foliage than other mid bandfrequencies


- some feature of the LTE protocol that overcomes NLOS

- LTE equipment has more sensitive receivers

- 3.65 GHz has less interference due to being semi licensed

- some combination of receiver sensitivity and lack of interference

- none of the above but LTE equipment is just made better

Maybe it’s real world experience with no theoretical basis. But Ialways like to know why something works, or doesn’t. You’d preferthat the reason it works isn’t some temporary anomaly. Like serviceis really good at this new restaurant, because nobody knows about it yet.


*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Muehleisen
*Sent:* Thursday, February 27, 2020 10:29 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] [ External ] Re: Cambium LTE

Still in winter. I'd like to see how it performs when the leaves arefull in May.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 9:26 AM dave <dmilho...@wletc.com<mailto:dmilho...@wletc.com>> wrote:

We R starting to see some real world impressive results with just thepmp450i CBRS radios on a 20Mhz channelsThis guy is nearLOS about 2.5 miles of some tree and pointing intoedge of panel



    Current Results Status

Stats for LUID: 65 Test Duration: 10 Pkt Length: 1714 TestDirection Bi-Directional


*Link Test without Bridging*

*Data
Channel
Priority*

        

*Downlink*

        

*Uplink*

        

*Aggregate*

        

*Packet Transmit*

        

*Packet Receive*

*Actual*

        

*Actual*

Low

        

50.01 Mbps

        

32.97 Mbps

        

82.98 Mbps,  6008 pps

        

23887 (2388 pps)

        

36207 (3620 pps)



*Efficiency*

*Downlink*

        

*Uplink*

*Efficiency*

        

*Fragments
count*

        

*Efficiency*

        

*Fragments
count*

*Actual*

        

*Missed*

        

*Actual*

        

*Missed*

99%

        

984301

        

7409

        

99%

        

647582

        

3593


Link Test ran on 15:20:50 02/27/2020 UTC

*Currently transmitting at:*

8X/6X MIMO-B



Current Contention Mode Status: No Piggyback of data in contention


On 2/25/20 3:59 PM, Matt Mangriotis via AF wrote:

    I completely understand your skepticism Ken. However, Cambium did
    design the 3 GHz 450m with every intention of being able to
    support a transition to LTE (specifically, as a RRH with
    cnRanger). The intent is for this device to be a fully capable 8x8
    MU-MIMO. Yes, you’ve got that right though, you’ll need new CPE
    devices and a BBU for each sector.

    We don’t have a target date when this will be developed yet… right
    now, we’re focused on getting the cnRanger CBRS 2x2 RRH and High
    Gain Cat 6 CPE devices out in August!

    With respect to NLOS coverage, I will agree that 450 is not quite
    on par with some of the things that LTE brings to the table
    (regarding range and the ability to maintain the downlink).
    However, with the increased power limits of CBRS, the 450m does an
    admirable job. In fact, in comparing equipment cost and
    performance, I would suggest that the 450 platform outperforms
    anything out there. That is, it’s less expensive to get bandwidth
    where it needs to be (at a higher rate, and to more customers). If
    the customer density can support the cost of cnMedusa, you’re
    going to be better off from total cost of ownership (both CapEx
    and OpEx) perspective.

    The new 3GHz 450b High Gain has 29 dBm Tx Pwr, and a 20 dBi dish
    integrated antenna… this is pretty impressive for CBRS CPE
    equipment (most of the high gain/high power LTE stuff I see is
    only going to be 23 dBm Tx, plus 15 dBi antenna).

    There are several customers out there that have done these
    comparisons… hopefully, they can chime in.

    Matt

    *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
    <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
    *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 7:06 PM
    *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com>
    <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
    *Subject:* [ External ] Re: [AFMUG] Cambium LTE

    You should probably talk to someone at Cambium, unless someone
    here has already done that.  There was talk 1-2 years ago about
    450m is software defined so maybe they could use it as a remote
    radio head with their cnRanger LTE BaseBand Unit (BBU).  It has
    been pretty quiet since then, but I haven’t been able to make it
    to the shows.

    Without an update directly from the horse’s mouth like Matt at
    Cambium, or some kind of announcement, I wouldn’t hold my breath. 
    Back in 2018 it was in the realm of “it would be nice”.  That’s
    pretty tentative.  Plus you’d still have to buy the BBU and new
    CPE, so it doesn’t sound like a huge savings anyway, still 2/3 of
    a forklift upgrade.  I mean, if it turned out that the 3 GHz
    cnRanger RRH was literally a 450m, that would probably be the best
    case, but how likely do you think that is?

    This is just my personal speculation, if it’s an important part of
    a decision you’re making now, you probably need to get hold of
    your Cambium regional sales manager, or the 450 or cnRanger
    product manager.  If you’re going to WISPAmerica, you can probably
    do it there.

    *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
    <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
    *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 6:03 PM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com
    <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Cambium LTE

    So the 450M is supposed to be LTE upgradable?

    On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 3:45 PM Steve Jones
    <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

        Something aboit the medusa top can be used with cnranger
        potentially with a fiber run and a software update

        On Mon, Feb 24, 2020, 3:38 PM Adam Moffett
        <dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

            In my opinion, 450 is better than Baicells or Telrad LTE
            at everything except NLOS performance.

            ....Except that NLOS performance is so useful that one can
            be tempted to ignore all of the other features of the
            450.  I do understand that tradeoff because I've had to
            make it myself.

            On 2/24/2020 4:30 PM, David Williamson wrote:

                450 3.65Ghz vs. Baicells 3.65Ghz LTE = no comparison.
                All but one of the 450 APs are already removed from
                our network.  I am just trying to determine if the SMs
                will be usable on Cambium LTE once they roll it out,
                or if it will require a completely different SM.


                David

                *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf
                Of *Jason McKemie
                *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 4:28 PM
                *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
                *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Cambium LTE

                Why are you getting rid of 3.65 Cambium in favor of LTE?

                On Monday, February 24, 2020, David Williamson
                <dwilliam...@customcomputersva.com
                <mailto:dwilliam...@customcomputersva.com>> wrote:

                Will the Cambium 3.65 LTE have a completely new SM or
                will it use the existing 450SM's? Trying to determine
                if I should keep our 450SM's or just go ahead and sell
                them to one of our secondary market distributors along
                with our 450 AP's.

                Thanks!

                David Williamson


                -----Original Message-----
                From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
                <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On Behalf Of Adam
                Moffett
                Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 1:57 PM
                To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
                Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium LTE

                I think I heard next quarter for the 3.5.

                On 2/24/2020 1:48 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:
                > 3.5 isn’t available yet.
                >
                > I believe that 2.5 can be purchased.
                >
                > Jeff Broadwick
                > CTIconnect
                > 312-205-2519 Office
                > 574-220-7826 Cell
                > jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
                <mailto:jbroadw...@cticonnect.com>
                >
                >> On Feb 24, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Avatar Davis
                <acd...@mail.harvard.edu
                <mailto:acd...@mail.harvard.edu>> wrote:
                >>
                >> Does anyone have experience with Cambium LTE? I am
                highly dissatisfied with my current manufacturer and
                was wondering if anyone had experience using/demoing
                their product line. Cambium products seem consistently
                good in my experience.
                >>
                >>
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Re: [AFMUG] [ External ] Re: Cambium LTE

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