done, excellent suggestion
On Jul 17, 5:10 pm, waTR <r...@devshell.org> wrote:
> I would really love to see a web2py-developers google group form, and
> a web2py-management group. At least then there can be a forum to
> discuss the strategic plan, and general organization for the project,
> and not pollute the web2py-users group.
>
> One must not forget that we are comparing frameworks that are at
> different points in their development. Django is established and
> mature, Web2py is young and still in early stages. While the web2py
> code is as solid and stable as (if not more than) Django, a project is
> more than just code, it is the community of volunteers and the
> consistent effort they are putting in.
>
> The best example of the framework that COULD, but didn't due to
> failure in creating an involved community was Perl's Gantry. The tech
> was great, it was also far simpler to get up and running than any
> other perl framework. It was really a "rails" for perl. HOWEVER, the
> community never materialized, and the project is now dead in the
> water. One of the biggest killers of open-source projects is the
> failure to build a strong participatory community.
>
> In fact, I learned web2py before any other framework, but not before
> researching a lot of other frameworks (including Django, and those in
> other languages other than Python). However, as it is, if the effort
> behind web2py is built around convincing coders from Django and making
> them see the light that web2py is better. I am not interested in
> participating in that crusade. I would prefer if the framework
> concentrates on just being another framework that is different in just
> the right ways. It is still a goal to be better than the rest, but you
> need to be a bit more specific than that to reach your goal.
>
> On Jul 17, 2:15 pm, Bottiger <bottig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Since no one else completed, web2py didn't get recognized at the
> > > conference
>
> > You also forgot to mention that no one else *competed*.
>
> > Now it may very well be true that Web2Py is quicker to develop. When I
> > look at the code, it does seem shorter and cleaner, but I can still
> > program the same thing faster in Django than I can in Web2Py because:
>
> > 1. I learned it a while ago first.
> > 2. The free Django documentation is much better than the Web2Py one.
>
> > Again, this goes back to my point that Web2Py will remain in 2nd place
> > until its benefits are larger than its learning curve. Fortunately for
> > me, I have not sunk too much time into Django and I have had the time
> > to see where it is better than Django. However the majority of people
> > are not so fortunate.
>
> > Being easy to develop is good, but at the same time it can come with a
> > cost. It produces a bunch of unpolished apps that the public sees and
> > becomes immediately turned off. Here are a few examples that I found
> > on Reddit and Google:
>
> >http://www2.un.int/-Broken pictures everywhere. Completely static
> > front page. Subpages appear completely
> > static.https://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/personal/default/register-Brokenhttp://yao.appspot.com/-Featureless
> > bloghttp://mmlado.com/-Yet another featureless
> > bloghttp://morrisdecode.com/-Looks like the same theme as Web2Py
> > default.http://www.professionalit.com.br/-Completely static page that could
> > have been done in HTML.
>
> > This is not to say that being easy to develop is bad. But it does say
> > that Web2Py is not so easy compared to Django that we can rely on it
> > to set us apart.
>
> > On Jul 17, 1:12 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Bottiger <bottig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Django also has the ability to use SQLite.
>
> > > > Web2Py is a somewhat better at everything Django tries to do, but the
> > > > differences are simply not enough for the average programmer to see
> > > > through in 1 sitting. Let's take a look at the commonly cited features
> > > > of Web2Py.
>
> > > > **Please note this is not a bashing of Web2Py.**
>
> > > > - Web Editor
>
> > > > This is pretty nice yes, but its no replacement for a regular text
> > > > editor. Often times when I am using it, there will be graphical
> > > > glitches where text gets smeared all over the place. Often times when
> > > > I am editing even a simple tutorial, the save stops working, and
> > > > doesn't even tell you that the session has timed out. For most people,
> > > > this is not that much of a difference.
>
> > > You have these kinds of lockups?!?
>
> > > I've always found I prefer using MY editor - if I _really_ want to do it
> > > thru the web (even for small stuff) I use firefox, and get the "It's all
> > > Text" plugin - specify "my favorite editor" (vim, for me). The only thing
> > > annoying is that "plain text" is not the default mode in web2py, so I
> > > always
> > > have to either twiddle this (which is what I do - because I usually
> > > develop
> > > from WingIDE, which I greatly prefer) or patch the defaul (don't know I've
> > > ever done that... I just stay out of any but the most minor of developing
> > > on
> > > the web).
>
> > >https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4125
>
> > > > - Compilation
>
> > > > Django does this automatically, so I don't know why this is considered
> > > > a feature.
>
> > > Really?!?
>
> > > Are we talking byte code compilation / precompilation (prior to
> > > deployment),
> > > or are we talking about compilation of all-in-one executables for Mac of
> > > PC?
>
> > > "Automatic" compilation (bytecode) is what Python does, actually.... but I
> > > don't think that's what we mean here...
>
> > > > - Secure
>
> > > > The average programmer does not have the ability to see any concrete
> > > > benefit this has over Django. From what I've seen learning Web2Py, it
> > > > doesn't do anything that Django doesn't do with filtering and escaping
> > > > text, html etc.
>
> > > Does django now do this by default? (I think it didn't used to - it just
> > > provided a way for you to, as I recall...).
> > > Anyway, that's a good thing.
>
> > > all the rest of this is smack-dab peachy: I'll remind you of one thing -
> > > there was a website, guy from NOAA I think it was - that showed all the
> > > frameworks that claimed to have something; he tried building something
> > > simple with them and uncovered all the flaws and gotchas and try to say
> > > "here's what I would (wouldn't) want to build with".... most things just
> > > took a long time...
>
> > > web2py wasn't in that, but we discussed this about a year ago - web2py
> > > would
> > > have done really well in that. I have often pined that it would be good
> > > to
> > > re-do that video with current versions of "stuff", and include web2py...
>
> > > For example: 1 year ago, there was a contest: "come bring your favorite
> > > framework and deliver an app" - no pre-anouncement of what you would
> > > build,
> > > 24 hr (? or was it 12 hrs) time limit, start to finish.
>
> > > The ONLYONE that even finished: you guessed it: web2py; and that in LESS
> > > than the alloted time. (See a running result
> > > onhttp://web2py.appspot.com/survey). Since no one else completed, web2py
> > > didn't get recognized at the conference (I think they didn't want to
> > > alienate the other frameworks).
>
> > > SO - this is what there is to remember about web2py.
>
> > > There is more - at the PyCon DoJo, no one (not Bruce Eckel - who suggested
> > > and helped us outline and plan it - he thought we were too ambitious, that
> > > no one would get "all that done" in an hour; not people participating,
> > > including some knowledgable people - they were surprised... but it was a
> > > lot
> > > of "mind shift" to absorb in an hour regardless)...
>
> > > SO when you spout features, spout accessibility of those features too....
>
> > > The reason (my opinion) Massimo is not wanting "help" w/ next DAL is he's
> > > trying to make it easier for people to use, based on all the questions
> > > he's
> > > answered (no one else has that accumulation of experience w/ the
> > > questions).
>
> > > Is there work to do? Yes.
>
> > > Is there anything to web2py ("that other's don't have") - You bet ... just
> > > be sure you're measuring the right things.
> > > (I really, now, am going to have to dig up that URL to the video
> > > comparison...)
>
> > > - Yarko
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