The assumptions in discussions like these are extremely numerous, approaching the very number of stars themselves. Why for instance, should we suppose that any alien life form is similar to us? What if an intelligent life form was aquatic, and lived on a planet where the atmosphere was deadly to them? What possible motive could they have to develop radio technology in the first place, and who can assume that our radio technology would even work in their atmosphere? What if the magnetic flux field of their planet was so strong, or the chemical makeup so different that radio transmissions of our kind would never even penetrate it, never mind be something they would deploy?
What if their great superior reasoning led them to conclude that the time, efforts and resources to even attempt to travel at or near light speeds, or else attempt to bend space-time was so vast, and the probability of failure to find a race like enough to themselves so great, and the time dilation that would occur so devastating to any hope of communicating or traveling back to where they came from, that it became a common child's joke amongst the great races of the universe without them even knowing it between them? So many "what if's", so little time-space. Our minds are so small that they cannot comprehend how many factors go into making our planet exactly the planet it is. There are so many balances, both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial, which if unbalanced by so much as 5% or less would render human life on this planet absolutely impossible. And we hope to find a planet so like ours, and then hope that life on that planet has evolved (the greatest begging of a question that ever there was) so like us as to allow any communication at all? This discussion can happen at all because of the human mind's inability to focus on and balance very many things at one time and measure a thesis against all other things that could weigh upon it. We simply do not possess the wisdom and mental faculty to treat such a subject. No, my friends, I think all conversation along these lines is so incredibly presumptuous, it is staggering when you really begin to think of everything we take as a given or gloss over when discussing such things. Sorry all you Star Trek fans, and anyone else I have likely offended. I love science fiction as much as the next person, but I think any race of beings wise enough to comprehend the real logistics of space travel or communication across such great distances would conclude right away that it was a total waste of their limited resources, better spent on improving their own state of affairs. (Let the flames begin!;-) Bob On Mar 26, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Roger Guay wrote: > Tom, > > Please forgive me (especially Tim) for apparently sounding argumentative. > Not my intent at all. I was merely trying to say that given the vastness of > our universe and the number of stars contained in it, many argue that it is > logical to assume a multitude of intelligent species populating our entire > galaxy. And given the vast time scale involved, it is also logical to assume > these alien civilizations will not have evolved simultaneously (criterion #1) > > The second criterion is that the radio active stages of technology of these > civilizations will be short relative to these same vast time scales. I'm sure > that I am not the first to define this criterion, but I have not seen it > discussed before. The validity of this is discussed very briefly in the > simulation notes. Further to this point, I would argue that ALL technologies > have limited durations, and the simulation allows you to adjust it over a > very long range (albeit short relative to the vast time scales of our galaxy) > to your heart's content. I would be happy to discuss this at length, but it > might be best to do so off-list?? > > My simulation starts with these assumptions and explores the outcome. These > criteria are simply derived from the statistics of the numbers involved. > There are many more qualified than I to explain the statistics involved, and > a few references are included in the notes of the simulation. For those > interested I would would start with the SETI project itself at. > > > http://www.seti.org/ > > And, the Drake equation says it all . . . statically: > > > http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/seti/drake_equation.html > > Thanks and cheers, > Roger Guay > > > On Mar 25, 2012, at 7:56 AM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: > >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:54:05 -0400 >> From: Thomas McGrath III <mcgra...@mac.com> >> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> >> Subject: Re: use-livecode Digest, Vol 102, Issue 49 >> Message-ID: <02634a04-296a-4fbe-a626-3e7587ff9...@mac.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII >> >> I didn't take either comment as overly argumentative but more like a >> challenge (which we tend to do on this list from time to time). For me, >> coming up with two criteria is intriguing and caught my interest. I would >> love to see more on the validity of those two criteria, but what really >> interested me was how Roger translated those to an interesting LC project. >> Very cool. I would love to hear more about that. >> >> -- Tom McGrath III >> http://lazyriver.on-rev.com >> 3mcgr...@comcast.net >> >> On Mar 24, 2012, at 8:31 PM, Roger Guay wrote: >> >>> Tim, >>> >>> I don't pretend to know anything! As for my thesis, I am merely making >>> assumptions based on statistics and the vast size of our galaxy and the >>> number of stars it contains. No one has decided anything about the nature >>> of our species except the religious. BTW, did you look at the simulation? >>> >>> I think it might be best to take any further discussions of this nature >>> off-list. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Roger >>> >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:03 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote: >>> >>>> Message: 9 >>>> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:44:21 -0700 >>>> From: Tim Jones <tolis...@me.com> >>>> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> >>>> Subject: Re: ANN and OT: Calling All SETI Enthusiasts >>>> Message-ID: <dabd6b02-27fe-40e6-8df5-3144fce87...@me.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII >>>> >>>> Ready to defend your thesis? Let me toss out two great Sci-Fi antithesis >>>> to your points below - >>>> >>>> How have we determined how long the "relatively short duration" of the >>>> radio stage of any societies is? >>>> >>>> How have we decided, even taking asynchronous development into account, >>>> that humans aren't the most mature and advanced species in the nearby >>>> galaxy? >>>> >>>> :-) >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Roger Guay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> The SETI project has been in existence for about 50 years, and Enrico >>>>> Fermi's question asked in the 1940's, "Where is everybody?" is still >>>>> germane today. >>>>> >>>>> I think I have finally succeded in building a simulation of two criteria >>>>> relevant to this SETI "problem": 1) The asynchronous evolution of >>>>> intelligence throughout the galaxy couple with 2) the relatively short >>>>> duration of the radio stage of alien technologies. >>>>> >>>>> You can download this stack at: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://idisk.mac.com/irog//Public/SETIproblem.livecode >>>>> >>>>> I welcome any feedback. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and cheers, >>>>> Roger Guay >>>>> ___________ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
