On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 9:27 PM, Cédric Krier <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 01 Apr 17:15, Sasa Ostrouska wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Cédric Krier <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > On 01 Apr 16:42, Sasa Ostrouska wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Cédric Krier <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 01 Apr 13:26, Sasa Ostrouska wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Cédric Krier < > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 01 Apr 11:15, Sasa Ostrouska wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Cédric Krier < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 01 Apr 00:52, Cédric Krier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It is not for direct taxes which are managed by the tax > > > system in > > > > > > > > > > account module. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, I should not have talked about "direct"/"indirect" > > > taxes > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > it is not the right name. > > > > > > > > > The difference here between customs duty and standard > Tryton > > > taxes > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > that custom duties are not on the invoice. Indeed who is > > > paying the > > > > > > > duty > > > > > > > > > depend on the agreement between the supplier and the > customer. > > > This > > > > > > > part > > > > > > > > > is not covered by the blueprint but it will be a first > step for > > > > > such > > > > > > > > > management. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing IMHO is that you have to think that not > everywhere in > > > the > > > > > > > world > > > > > > > > the customs duties > > > > > > > > are treated the same way. As far as I know in most countries > > > they go > > > > > > > summed > > > > > > > > to the product cost > > > > > > > > when you import a product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand what you mean. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean that not in every country the customs duty is treated as > cost > > > and > > > > > > gets added to the product. > > > > > > When you import a product the product cost in Brasil for exemple > is > > > > > > composed of the product vaalue, > > > > > > transport charges and customs duty as a base for the other taxes > > > > > > calculation. > > > > > > > > > > Of course the cost price of a product is linked to many extra > costs. > > > > > But which taxes are you talking about? > > > > > > > > > > > > > The taxes I listed above PIS/COFINS, IPI, ICMS, ICMS-ST which are > > > internal > > > > taxes. > > > > By internal I mean in the country. So this works like as follows: > > > > > > > > Product cost (composed by product bought in the international market > + > > > > freight + customs duty or Import Tax) > > > > is the base of the PIS tax, then all those are base for COFINS , and > then > > > > IPI and then ICMS and so on. > > > > > > This sounds not logical at all. > > > > > In fact it is not much logical, to say it better its a theft. But its > that > > way. > > No I'm not talking at all about the legitimate of the tax. I mean what > you are saying make no sense. > It could be not logical for you but again it is that way. You can try it yourself if you do not think it has sense. > > > > How does it work when a company buy a product from an other local > > > company? How is PIS tax computed? > > > > > > > You have to know that in Brasil import companies are treated like local > > industry. > > I guess not because there is customs duties. > > In Italy for example an import/export company have not the same obligations as an industry, here they have it. > > And also there > > you have various types of accounting, where taxes in some cases are > > computed only at the > > end of the year and on the total amount of your turn arround. They ask > for > > the 5% of your > > total invoiced items. > > This doesn't help at all the discussion, dropping cases without any > clear example. > > It would be a need to translate a lot of things from portuguese language for me to explain it so I wont do that. There is all information on the internet. But its important to understand this as this makes a difference on how companies compute their cost. Some taxes including the customs duty are accounted as cost when you are in this special form of accounting. Therefore you do not get any credit back from the state. > > Ok PIS is computed on the base of 100 and it has a value of 1,65% > usually. > > Don't understand at all. "the base of 100"? Do you mean it is a > percentage? > No it is not a percentage, I expressed myself badly, by 100 I meant the value of the product + custom duty + extra custom charges at import act. > > > Its a simple > > like VAT, but in most cases of companies it is calculated already in the > > price. So companies > > just register their credit of what was paid. > > We have clearly here a vocabulary issue. We will never understand each > others if you are not clear about the topic. > If this tax is like VAT, it is ease to manage. The company selling > products have to collect the tax (based on the sale price) to give it to > the authorities. > No by VAT I mean its the same way of calculating it, so you have a product base price and you simply add 1,65% over to it. But you do not get credit of this until you are not in the real accounting scheme. > > > Same is for COFINS which the > > rate is different for > > imported goods and for same article when selling it. > > It is not clear what you call imported goods but if you mean that > companies buying from foreign supplier a goods (importation) will have > to "auto-declare" the tax (with a different rate). So don't see any big > issue here, it just a matter of tax rule from the supplier. > > I call imported goods, whatever comes from a foreign country into Brasil. So on the act of import you have a value of 8,60% for COFINS tax, and when you sell that item you imported you calculate that COFINS tax with a lower amount of 7,60%. > > In import you pay > > 8,60% but when > > selling you calculate it only 7,60% . There is a simulator of tributation > > on the goverment site > > I don't understand what you mean, when you say "In import you pay". > I mean that when you import , the goods arrives to the port , before you can get them and take them to your warehouse you have to pay the various taxes and in that case you calculate COFINS tax with 8,60% over your base. After you took the goods to your store and you want to sell them, then you have to sell them with 7,60% of COFINS, this makes you pay more COFINS at import then you can get credit. Do you mean you have to declare the purchase of goods with this higher > tax rate? If so, it means importing goods is more profitable than sale > local goods. But I highly doubt it is that. > Yes, you pay more at act of import then at act of selling. And no it is not more profitable as you end up with more credit at purchase, but the problem comes when you have to get this credit back. > So for me, your term "you pay" is very confusing. > I mean that the value of the tax at the import act you have to pay is higher and you have to pay more money to the state then you will get later back from your customer. > > > Also all the costs you define most of the time you don't know them when > > > you receive the products so how do you do? > > > > > All extra costs , handling of container, B/L, and other kind of costs > > related to the goods > > clearing usually go divided and then added into the product base, so they > > compose the > > cost of your product. > > I know how cost price of a product is computed. > > But it is insane to use it for taxes. The cost price is a tool for > company to manage their cost. It can not be the base of tax country > system otherwise I will put all my expenses as general expenses and > nothing goes into the goods so I have lower taxes. > But for imported goods they do it that way here, this extra costs gets divided er item and then added to the value of the product. Law permits this.
