Tacos should be able to do the trick...We've invested a good deal of time in form logic so there should be minimal issues by the time you get to it.
On 3/29/06, Derick Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Pedro Viegas wrote: > > > Thanks Steve and Derick. > > I here by pleage to dig in to it! :) > > Great :) > > > > > It looks as though what I was trying to accomplish on my own was a much > less > > ambicios platform (does not deserve framework status! :-D) of the same > > approuch you did. So with Cognition I thinks i'll get a huge jump start > and > > get much further (and faster) than I espected to. > > > > I for one like to start of with the Database Table Model. I understand > > John's point since an Object model can be much ritcher then a database > > model... even more if we use hibernates mapping features extensivelly. > But I > > rather have a clean and efficient database model witch I know will be > > performant and add a good mapping (as much automatically as possible) to > get > > the Object model. > > > > We do plan on supporting the model driven approach, the tasks involved > there are more tedious than complicated. > > > The only thing I'm a bit nervous about is that one of my goals was rich > UI. > > A fast. low bandwith, very user-friendly UI for an intense database > > application suite i'm starting to build. > > This in my mind was mandatory to be based on AJAX requests all over. > > I risk stating that a few years from now, this will simply be... the > normal > > way of doing things. > > We don't expect a Win32 app to redraw the whole screen just to select a > > checkbox, right? Why should a webapp do this kind of stuff when there is > > AJAX? > > I'm affraid I loose control over these features with the auto-generated > UI > > for CRUD on the database POJOs as I saw on your demo. > > > > I'll look it up and post my doubts no doubt! > > > > As for the ANT tasks, point taken! Excelent. This means one can, if one > > wishes, automize a great deal of work using these, though many may be > done > > through the IDE also, right? > > > > Yes > > > As for the Edit components. I really wish I could see things like > > Tacos:Autocompleter in there. > > Any chance a not so brililant developer, like a > > > no-i-am-not-able-to-build-a-framework-like-cognition-but-would-like-to-add-a-component-or-two-to-it > > could get this done easilly... or does one has to know the whole thing > > inside out? > > > > To be honest I have not tried any AJAX components inside an EditType, > hopefully this will be somewhat seamless, and if not we may have to > tweak somethings. AJAX will be handy for things like a nested edit, so > we will be looking into it. Creating an edit type is not very difficult, > it should be fairly simple and doesnt require you to know the details > of the framework. > > > Next step, download FW and demo app. > > Will not burden you with more Q&A till then. > > > > Regards, > > > > On 3/29/06, Derick Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Pedro Viegas wrote: > >>> Steve, > >>> > >>> This Cognition framework is sounding better by the minute. > >>> I'm in the middle of creating a base platform for app development > >> exactly > >>> with T4, Hivemind, Hibernate, so it's really a quick fit for me, it > >> appears. > >>> Model based code generation ou reverse engeneering is preciselly what > I > >> have > >>> started with, using Hibernate Tools ant scripts with custom velocity > >>> templates. > >>> Tell me Steve are there some catches to app development with > >> Cognition... > >>> things like, do you have to do things like this or other way, link > pages > >> to > >>> one another for page navigation with a specificly provided feature, > >>> instanciate classes based on these mandatory abstract classes, or > >>> implementing a half a dozen interfaces and extend the method A or B, > >> only > >>> use these component librarys... you know what I mean kind of > >> hard-coupled > >>> features. > >> You generally will not have to do that unless you are extending > >> Cognition. You also have access to anything you may otherwise do in > >> Tapestry or Hibernate. > >> > >>> I saw your demo, and was very impressed. It all fits togheter. I also > >> saw > >>> the dozens of ANT tasks... that scared me a little I must say. All of > >> this > >>> funcionality with a few mouse clicks is what makes me ask what I did. > Is > >> it > >>> all very strickly linked in a particular and restricted way or is it > >> just a > >>> quick start witch one can easilly extend and change to ones needs. > >>> > >> There are a lot of ant tasks, we will hide some of them using gui > >> elements in modeler eventually. They are more important for people who > >> need to do things outside eclipse, like a continuous build system. > >> Everything is designed to be extensible, and if you find you can't > >> extend something using the extension mechanisms such as EditTypes, > >> SearchTypes or Blocks etc, it should probably be fixed on our end. > >> > >>> You talk of the custom EditTypes we can provide. Are these components? > >>> > >> These are simple classes which end up being contributions to a hivemind > >> configuration point. In the case of EditTypes, they implement EditType > >> interface, which is a lot simpler than it sounds because in most cases > >> you would extend AbstractEditType. Each edit type returns one value > that > >> is then assigned to the correct pojo. A SearchType returns one or more > >> hibernate filters that are assigned to query. A ViewType can be used to > >> layout data differently and supports Inserts formatter option and also > >> uses the same formatter to display a date for example consistently on a > >> data grid. > >> > >>> What about Page Navigation. Does Cognition provide something for that? > I > >>> mean, a very usefull feature in many projects is the ability to > produce > >> Site > >>> Maps, ou bread crumbs for navigation, or even dynamicly generated > >>> hierarchical menus. > >>> Other features like the Structs or JSF visual action based page > >> navigation > >>> modeler, is there anything planed for these kind of features? > >>> > >> We are currently investigating approaches to web flow as this is > >> critical feature. The navigation component is likely to enter the scene > >> during this. We may end up working on a Tapestry implementation of > >> Spring Web Flow or roll our own using hivemind. > >> > >>> Another issue is AJAX. You say your planning on suporting it. Do you > >> have it > >>> under way? Is it a soon to apperar feature? I think it's a must have > >> since > >>> it reduces needed bandwith in a brutal way, and adds a rich client > >> usability > >>> to prior "submit oriented" pages. > >>> A project comes to mind, Tacos! Are you planning to integrate it? It > >> seems > >>> to be a must have for any T4 project, even thought it's still Beta. > What > >> do > >>> you plan to do here? Wait till T4.1 with AJAX allready bundled in? > >>> > >> We will likely hold off creating Ajax Cognition components until we are > >> done with web flow and related designers. But we can certainly add > >> component libraries like Tacos, I will enter an issue for this. I was > >> looking at creating some type of composite edit component using taco's, > >> but its not at the top of my list. > >> > >>> Sorry for the pop quiz! :-) > >>> I'm really curious with Cognition and I'm very motivated to try it on, > >> but > >>> time is short and I would like to get a better view of it before I > drill > >> in > >>> to it! > >> I encourage you to check out the SLAVE example application in the > >> cognition src download here. It'll give you a better idea of how things > >> work than the viewlet does. > >> > >> http://dev.thelabllc.com/downloads/cognition/cognition-src.zip > >> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> > >>> On 3/28/06, Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> I don't know if it's clear from the install docs, but: > >>>> > >>>> 1. We don't use the Ivy Plugin, and we use Eclipse 3.1 almost > >>>> exclusively. We > >>>> are going to get into GMF which will force all of us to use > >> 3.2eventually... > >>>> 2. If you are just using the Modeler, you shouldn't need to install > >> Ivy. > >>>> 3. If you are using the Framework solo with src, you will need to > have > >>>> Ivy > >>>> installed to download all the dependency libs. But again this is > just > >> Ivy > >>>> installed, not the plug-in. > >>>> > >>>> Is that clearer? Let me know if I need to change install docs. Key > is > >> we > >>>> want > >>>> people to use it - to play with it and see if it is up to snuff and > if > >> you > >>>> think it's the bees knees to start contributing. We can make as many > >>>> fancy > >>>> presentations as we like but if it can't execute on what it's > purported > >> to > >>>> do > >>>> it's just more 'emperor's new software'. Please report any fatal > bugs > >> or > >>>> impediments to being able to use it, thanks. > >>>> > >>>> It's Alpha, but we did some pretty aggressive QA prior to release so > >> that > >>>> the > >>>> community doesn't spend it's time with dumb bugs but can instead > focus > >> on > >>>> current and desired functionality. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Quoting Peter Svensson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >>>> > >>>>> I would really like to try it, bu for abscure reasons I run eclipse > >> 3.1, > >>>>> which the ivy plugin does not support yet :| Anyway, it looks lika > a > >>>> great > >>>>> effort, and it would be very interresting to see if you could > >>>>> loan/borrow/support some of the existing stuff in trails. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> PS > >>>>> > >>>>> On 3/28/06, Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>> Not trying to take away from Trails, which is a great project and > we > >>>> cross > >>>>>> some > >>>>>> of the same areas. Chris said they do some of the same stuff but I > >>>> got > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> implication from the blog that they did not cover all these > >> items. We > >>>>>> take > >>>>>> some different approaches but are going to look into how we can > >>>>>> collaborate. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Wow this sounds fantastic! Is it easily possible to reuse your > Edit > >>>>>>> components in an existing project? > >>>>>> Yes, you can have as many 'Cognition:Edit' components as you like > in > >> a > >>>>>> page / > >>>>>> project. Each is backed by a generated XML file that can be > edited. > >>>>>> Currently, all Edit components are tightly coupled with a POJO / > >> table > >>>> and > >>>>>> we > >>>>>> are looking to separate that some to be more flexible to support > >>>> multiple > >>>>>> table > >>>>>> forms with transactions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> And are they tight to hibernate objects or would they work for any > >>>>>> object? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right now Hibernate only. We are looking at supporting other ORMs > as > >>>> well > >>>>>> as > >>>>>> other datasources other than RDBMSs, but as per Derick in another > >>>> thread > >>>>>> we are > >>>>>> using some features unique to Hibernate such as filters in the > other > >>>>>> companion > >>>>>> components. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We're also planning to extend them to have 'Ajax enabled' versions > as > >>>>>> well. > >>>>>> Anyone want to take this on? ;) > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Henri. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/28/06, Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Answering Howard's Blog - Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - "From the > >>>>>> fanciful > >>>>>>>> ideas > >>>>>>>> category ..." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Wouldn't it be nice if I could just plop the following into the > >>>>>> middle of > >>>>>>>> my > >>>>>>>> form? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> <span jwcid="@edit:EditObject" object="ognl:pojo"/> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The Cognition Framework Edit component basically works just like > >>>> that, > >>>>>> i.e > >>>>>>>> .: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> <span jwcid="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" persistent="ognl:new > >>>>>>>> com.thelabllc.product.orm.model.Product()" /> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Form fields are wrappered Tapestry components called > >>>> EditTypes. We > >>>>>> cover > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> basics - text, radio button, propertyselection, etc. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> For any new field you can just create a new EditType (EditTypes > >>>> are > >>>>>>>> Hivemind > >>>>>>>> contributions). For example, if you have a composite field of > >>>> three > >>>>>>>> textboxes > >>>>>>>> that needs to be validated in a particular way, (i.e. US phone > >>>> number) > >>>>>>>> you create a 'Phone' EditType and then this can be reused within > >>>> any > >>>>>> Edit > >>>>>>>> component easily. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As more people contribute, this has the power to be a very > >>>>>> comprehensive > >>>>>>>> list of > >>>>>>>> EditTypes available for any form. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> And, of course, some set of annotations to define the validation > >>>> of > >>>>>> those > >>>>>>>> properties. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We do this via XML at this time, using Validators and > Translators, > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> editable > >>>>>>>> defaults put in for most datatypes. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We will have more annotation support for items like this in the > >>>>>>>> future. The > >>>>>>>> advantage that the XML provides is that your configuration is not > >>>> tied > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> your > >>>>>>>> code; you can potentially have Nth number of variations on how > >>>> you'd > >>>>>> like > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> display your field in a form. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Maybe even so carefully named Block components to provide row > >>>>>> overrides? > >>>>>>>> Done, you can override form items with a Block. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think this logic would kick ass when building prototypes. > >>>>>>>> Time to take names. ;) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ........................................ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Steve Motola > >>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>> (310) 422-5521 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The Lab, LLC > >>>>>>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Content is for intended recipient only. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> ........................................ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Steve Motola > >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> (310) 422-5521 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Lab, LLC > >>>>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Content is for intended recipient only. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>> ........................................ > >>>> > >>>> Steve Motola > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> (310) 422-5521 > >>>> > >>>> The Lab, LLC > >>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>> > >>>> Content is for intended recipient only. > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Pedro Viegas > >>> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Pedro Viegas > > > > > -- > ......................................... > > Derick Fernando > Lead Architect > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (323) 314-9593 > http://www.thelabllc.com > > Content is for intended recipient only. > Copyright 2001-2005, The Lab, LLC > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Jesse Kuhnert Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer Open source based consulting work centered around dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://opennotion.com
