Thanks Steve and Derick. I here by pleage to dig in to it! :) It looks as though what I was trying to accomplish on my own was a much less ambicios platform (does not deserve framework status! :-D) of the same approuch you did. So with Cognition I thinks i'll get a huge jump start and get much further (and faster) than I espected to.
I for one like to start of with the Database Table Model. I understand John's point since an Object model can be much ritcher then a database model... even more if we use hibernates mapping features extensivelly. But I rather have a clean and efficient database model witch I know will be performant and add a good mapping (as much automatically as possible) to get the Object model. The only thing I'm a bit nervous about is that one of my goals was rich UI. A fast. low bandwith, very user-friendly UI for an intense database application suite i'm starting to build. This in my mind was mandatory to be based on AJAX requests all over. I risk stating that a few years from now, this will simply be... the normal way of doing things. We don't expect a Win32 app to redraw the whole screen just to select a checkbox, right? Why should a webapp do this kind of stuff when there is AJAX? I'm affraid I loose control over these features with the auto-generated UI for CRUD on the database POJOs as I saw on your demo. I'll look it up and post my doubts no doubt! As for the ANT tasks, point taken! Excelent. This means one can, if one wishes, automize a great deal of work using these, though many may be done through the IDE also, right? As for the Edit components. I really wish I could see things like Tacos:Autocompleter in there. Any chance a not so brililant developer, like a no-i-am-not-able-to-build-a-framework-like-cognition-but-would-like-to-add-a-component-or-two-to-it could get this done easilly... or does one has to know the whole thing inside out? Next step, download FW and demo app. Will not burden you with more Q&A till then. Regards, On 3/29/06, Derick Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Pedro Viegas wrote: > > Steve, > > > > This Cognition framework is sounding better by the minute. > > I'm in the middle of creating a base platform for app development > exactly > > with T4, Hivemind, Hibernate, so it's really a quick fit for me, it > appears. > > Model based code generation ou reverse engeneering is preciselly what I > have > > started with, using Hibernate Tools ant scripts with custom velocity > > templates. > > Tell me Steve are there some catches to app development with > Cognition... > > things like, do you have to do things like this or other way, link pages > to > > one another for page navigation with a specificly provided feature, > > instanciate classes based on these mandatory abstract classes, or > > implementing a half a dozen interfaces and extend the method A or B, > only > > use these component librarys... you know what I mean kind of > hard-coupled > > features. > > You generally will not have to do that unless you are extending > Cognition. You also have access to anything you may otherwise do in > Tapestry or Hibernate. > > > I saw your demo, and was very impressed. It all fits togheter. I also > saw > > the dozens of ANT tasks... that scared me a little I must say. All of > this > > funcionality with a few mouse clicks is what makes me ask what I did. Is > it > > all very strickly linked in a particular and restricted way or is it > just a > > quick start witch one can easilly extend and change to ones needs. > > > > There are a lot of ant tasks, we will hide some of them using gui > elements in modeler eventually. They are more important for people who > need to do things outside eclipse, like a continuous build system. > Everything is designed to be extensible, and if you find you can't > extend something using the extension mechanisms such as EditTypes, > SearchTypes or Blocks etc, it should probably be fixed on our end. > > > You talk of the custom EditTypes we can provide. Are these components? > > > > These are simple classes which end up being contributions to a hivemind > configuration point. In the case of EditTypes, they implement EditType > interface, which is a lot simpler than it sounds because in most cases > you would extend AbstractEditType. Each edit type returns one value that > is then assigned to the correct pojo. A SearchType returns one or more > hibernate filters that are assigned to query. A ViewType can be used to > layout data differently and supports Inserts formatter option and also > uses the same formatter to display a date for example consistently on a > data grid. > > > What about Page Navigation. Does Cognition provide something for that? I > > mean, a very usefull feature in many projects is the ability to produce > Site > > Maps, ou bread crumbs for navigation, or even dynamicly generated > > hierarchical menus. > > Other features like the Structs or JSF visual action based page > navigation > > modeler, is there anything planed for these kind of features? > > > > We are currently investigating approaches to web flow as this is > critical feature. The navigation component is likely to enter the scene > during this. We may end up working on a Tapestry implementation of > Spring Web Flow or roll our own using hivemind. > > > Another issue is AJAX. You say your planning on suporting it. Do you > have it > > under way? Is it a soon to apperar feature? I think it's a must have > since > > it reduces needed bandwith in a brutal way, and adds a rich client > usability > > to prior "submit oriented" pages. > > A project comes to mind, Tacos! Are you planning to integrate it? It > seems > > to be a must have for any T4 project, even thought it's still Beta. What > do > > you plan to do here? Wait till T4.1 with AJAX allready bundled in? > > > > We will likely hold off creating Ajax Cognition components until we are > done with web flow and related designers. But we can certainly add > component libraries like Tacos, I will enter an issue for this. I was > looking at creating some type of composite edit component using taco's, > but its not at the top of my list. > > > Sorry for the pop quiz! :-) > > I'm really curious with Cognition and I'm very motivated to try it on, > but > > time is short and I would like to get a better view of it before I drill > in > > to it! > > I encourage you to check out the SLAVE example application in the > cognition src download here. It'll give you a better idea of how things > work than the viewlet does. > > http://dev.thelabllc.com/downloads/cognition/cognition-src.zip > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > On 3/28/06, Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I don't know if it's clear from the install docs, but: > >> > >> 1. We don't use the Ivy Plugin, and we use Eclipse 3.1 almost > >> exclusively. We > >> are going to get into GMF which will force all of us to use > 3.2eventually... > >> > >> 2. If you are just using the Modeler, you shouldn't need to install > Ivy. > >> > >> 3. If you are using the Framework solo with src, you will need to have > >> Ivy > >> installed to download all the dependency libs. But again this is just > Ivy > >> installed, not the plug-in. > >> > >> Is that clearer? Let me know if I need to change install docs. Key is > we > >> want > >> people to use it - to play with it and see if it is up to snuff and if > you > >> think it's the bees knees to start contributing. We can make as many > >> fancy > >> presentations as we like but if it can't execute on what it's purported > to > >> do > >> it's just more 'emperor's new software'. Please report any fatal bugs > or > >> impediments to being able to use it, thanks. > >> > >> It's Alpha, but we did some pretty aggressive QA prior to release so > that > >> the > >> community doesn't spend it's time with dumb bugs but can instead focus > on > >> current and desired functionality. > >> > >> > >> Quoting Peter Svensson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> > >>> I would really like to try it, bu for abscure reasons I run eclipse > 3.1, > >>> which the ivy plugin does not support yet :| Anyway, it looks lika a > >> great > >>> effort, and it would be very interresting to see if you could > >>> loan/borrow/support some of the existing stuff in trails. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> PS > >>> > >>> On 3/28/06, Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> Not trying to take away from Trails, which is a great project and we > >> cross > >>>> some > >>>> of the same areas. Chris said they do some of the same stuff but I > >> got > >>>> the > >>>> implication from the blog that they did not cover all these > items. We > >>>> take > >>>> some different approaches but are going to look into how we can > >>>> collaborate. > >>>> > >>>>> Wow this sounds fantastic! Is it easily possible to reuse your Edit > >>>>> components in an existing project? > >>>> Yes, you can have as many 'Cognition:Edit' components as you like in > a > >>>> page / > >>>> project. Each is backed by a generated XML file that can be edited. > >>>> Currently, all Edit components are tightly coupled with a POJO / > table > >> and > >>>> we > >>>> are looking to separate that some to be more flexible to support > >> multiple > >>>> table > >>>> forms with transactions. > >>>> > >>>>> And are they tight to hibernate objects or would they work for any > >>>> object? > >>>> > >>>> Right now Hibernate only. We are looking at supporting other ORMs as > >> well > >>>> as > >>>> other datasources other than RDBMSs, but as per Derick in another > >> thread > >>>> we are > >>>> using some features unique to Hibernate such as filters in the other > >>>> companion > >>>> components. > >>>> > >>>> We're also planning to extend them to have 'Ajax enabled' versions as > >>>> well. > >>>> Anyone want to take this on? ;) > >>>> > >>>>> Thanks > >>>>> > >>>>> Henri. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 3/28/06, Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>> Answering Howard's Blog - Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - "From the > >>>> fanciful > >>>>>> ideas > >>>>>> category ..." > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Wouldn't it be nice if I could just plop the following into the > >>>> middle of > >>>>>> my > >>>>>> form? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <span jwcid="@edit:EditObject" object="ognl:pojo"/> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Cognition Framework Edit component basically works just like > >> that, > >>>> i.e > >>>>>> .: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <span jwcid="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" persistent="ognl:new > >>>>>> com.thelabllc.product.orm.model.Product()" /> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Form fields are wrappered Tapestry components called > >> EditTypes. We > >>>> cover > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> basics - text, radio button, propertyselection, etc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> For any new field you can just create a new EditType (EditTypes > >> are > >>>>>> Hivemind > >>>>>> contributions). For example, if you have a composite field of > >> three > >>>>>> textboxes > >>>>>> that needs to be validated in a particular way, (i.e. US phone > >> number) > >>>>>> you create a 'Phone' EditType and then this can be reused within > >> any > >>>> Edit > >>>>>> component easily. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As more people contribute, this has the power to be a very > >>>> comprehensive > >>>>>> list of > >>>>>> EditTypes available for any form. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> And, of course, some set of annotations to define the validation > >> of > >>>> those > >>>>>> properties. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We do this via XML at this time, using Validators and Translators, > >>>> with > >>>>>> editable > >>>>>> defaults put in for most datatypes. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We will have more annotation support for items like this in the > >>>>>> future. The > >>>>>> advantage that the XML provides is that your configuration is not > >> tied > >>>> to > >>>>>> your > >>>>>> code; you can potentially have Nth number of variations on how > >> you'd > >>>> like > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> display your field in a form. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Maybe even so carefully named Block components to provide row > >>>> overrides? > >>>>>> Done, you can override form items with a Block. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think this logic would kick ass when building prototypes. > >>>>>> Time to take names. ;) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ........................................ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Steve Motola > >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> (310) 422-5521 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Lab, LLC > >>>>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Content is for intended recipient only. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> ........................................ > >>>> > >>>> Steve Motola > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> (310) 422-5521 > >>>> > >>>> The Lab, LLC > >>>> http://www.thelabllc.com > >>>> > >>>> Content is for intended recipient only. > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> ........................................ > >> > >> Steve Motola > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> (310) 422-5521 > >> > >> The Lab, LLC > >> http://www.thelabllc.com > >> > >> Content is for intended recipient only. > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Pedro Viegas > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Pedro Viegas
