what about Aix-la-Chapelle (French) or Aken (Dutch) for Aachen in Germany ? At least the destination signs in Flanders show "Aken (Aachen)". Or destinations "Parijs" signs for Paris (still +200 km to go) in Flanders.
For satnavs this does not matter, you just have to follow the destination they tell you to follow. If you are using a map, it's different of course. But is that a reason to add the name in multiple languages to the map ? m p.s. Luckily you didn't follow the exit signs for Lille while driving in Flanders, otherwise you would have ended up here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1282972 On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 3:12 PM djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello ! > > I have in mind my trouble when driving back from Amsterdam toward France. I > knew I had to pass through Lille but I did not see it on the directional > signs. (No gps device back in the days ;-) ) I understood at last close to > the border that the Rijsel I saw all the time on the signs means Lille >_< > > Rijsel is not used in France. But it would be very useful to display it on a > map as it it used only several kilometers from the city. > > > djakk > > > Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 09:57, Jo <winfi...@gmail.com> a écrit : >> >> Every street in Brussels HAS a name:fr tag. They also ALL have a name:nl tag. >> >> An IPA representation also needs information about the language it is for. A >> name, even spelled with the exact same characters will be pronounced >> differently by a French speaker compared to a Ducht speaker. Sometimes very >> differently, sometimes it's simply a matter of which syllable to stress. >> >> Polyglot >> >> Op wo 19 sep. 2018 om 04:43 schreef Joseph Eisenberg >> <joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: >>> >>> Paul, >>> >>> Thank you for your comments. >>> Have you read the complete Proposal page? Perhaps I need to improve the >>> wording to clarify some of your concerns >>> >>>>> >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the >>>>> >renderer 'should' use.” >>>>> >>>>> By recording each name in a separate “name:<code>=*” tag, database users >>>>> and map makers will be able to pick the best name for their audience. >>>> >>>> >>>> The best name for the audience is the one which matches the signage. It >>>> does me no good to see an English >>>> translation of a Russian street sign. >>> >>> >>> This is true if your database use case is rendering a map for a local >>> audience. That's why the Openstreetmap Carto style renders names this way. >>> This proposal will not change the way names are rendered on the standard >>> map, except in the rare case where, for example, "name:fr=*" is present on >>> a feature in France but the "name=*" tag is missing. In this case it will >>> now render properly. >>> >>> But not all names are street or shop names. There are internationally know >>> features, like Mt Everest and the Yellow River, which have well-known names >>> in many names, which are quite different than the locally used name. Take a >>> look at the current rendering of Nepal or China. The Openstreetmap Carto >>> style is useful if you are in Nepal and want to find a sign point you >>> towards Mt Everest, but a person sitting at their computer in Brazil will >>> have trouble finding the mountain on the standard map style. >>> >>> The French style already renders names in French preferentially, but this >>> loses the information about the locally used name. I agree that this is a >>> problem! >>> But with the current use of names, it's not possible to make an >>> international map style that shows French names and the locally name at the >>> same time. >>> If you try to render "name:fr=*" and "name=*" together, you'll render the >>> French name twice for every street in Brussels >>> >>>> >>>> The only thing the map should render is the name as it is displayed on >>>> signage. >>> >>> >>> For local routing yes, for Openstreetmap Carto yes, but all applications? >>> Not always >>> >>>> >>>> It would also be useful if the IPA characters representing how a local >>>> would pronounce that name is present so applications could feed that >>>> to text-to-speech. >>> >>> >>> Yes! IPA is a great idea. I believe "name:ipa=*" could work for this. Want >>> to write up a proposal? :-) >>> >>>> >>>> It is also somewhat useful, for multilingual signage, to use name:xx and >>>> name:yy to hold the individual >>>> language components of that name. >>> >>> >>> You've got it! That's exactly what we want to encourage. If every street in >>> Brussels has name:fr=xx and name:nl=yy, the French map style could render >>> both. >>> (<joke> Or being the French, they might just render "name:fr=yy", but >>> there's nothing to be done about that. <joke>) >>>> >>>> >>>>> The local name still needs to be specified so that database users know >>>>> what name or names are actually used “on the ground” vs foreign names. >>>>> The default language format tag makes this possible, but separates this >>>>> function from the name=* tag. And the proposal includes a language:local >>>>> tag so that all local names can be shown, even those that are less common >>>>> or in a minority language. >>>> >>>> >>>> No, no and thrice no. >>> >>> >>> ??? What are you objecting to here? The "language:local=<lg>" tag? >>> This will not be rendered by Openstreetmap Carto style or anyone really. It >>> just lets database users that certain languages are actually locally used >>> names, vs foreign names. >>> >>> For example, Puncak Trikora (id) / Wilhelmina Top (nl) / Mount Trikora (en) >>> is the 2nd or 3rd tallest mountain in Indonesia. It's currently tagged with >>> name="Puncak Trikora", which is appropriate, because that's the name used >>> in Indonesian, the official langauge, and would be recognized by most >>> people in the country. But there is also a local name in the Lani language, >>> which is only known to people who live closest to the mountain and isn't >>> used on any offical signs. This language:local= tag would show that the >>> Lani name for the mountain is in fact a local name, not a foreign language >>> name. >>> >>> It's probably not a tag that will be used much in Europe, where minority >>> languages often have official recognition and signage, but it will be quite >>> helpful in parts of the world with many languages, particularly for >>> mountains and rivers that may have foreign names from the colonial period. >>> >>>>> >>>>> If this proposal is implemented, map makers and database users will have >>>>> many more options for using names in data or as map labels. >>>> >>>> >>>> Why would they want to? What possible use does it serve? Most street >>>> names and even place names are opaque. >>>> They may once have had meaning but no longer do. Near me is "Market Lane" >>>> but at neither end of it is there a market. >>>> Back in medieval times there was a market, perhaps, but it's been hundreds >>>> of years since there was a market there. >>>> Several miles from me is Felin Wen. That's Welsh for "White Mill." It's >>>> not been a mill for many, many years. >>> >>> >>> It's incorrect to tag name:en=White Mill, then, because the local name used >>> by English speakers is "Felin Wen." >>> >>> I believe this is clear on the name:<lg>= wiki page and the name=* tag >>> page, but I'd be happy to put in a clearer definition there, if necessary. >>> >>> I absolutely agree that no one should be making up translated name:<lg>= >>> tags. The language-specific name tags should only be used for names that >>> exist in the real world, on the ground. >>> >>>>> >>>>> For example, a vector map on a smartphone app could show names in the >>>>> user’s language by default. But when the user selects a feature by >>>>> tapping or clicking, the name on the local language would also be shown. >>>> >>>> >>>> Wrong way around. The sane thing to do is show the local name, because >>>> that's what I'd be looking for on signage. >>> >>> >>> Sure, good point, the other way around would be best for most purposes. >>> App designers will now have the choice, and users can decide what settings >>> they prefer. >>> The app could even detect the user's location and use that to help guess >>> what name lables to show. >>> When I'm in China, I'll want to see the names in Chinese characters, but >>> when I'm back home in the USA and just browsing around, it would be nice to >>> be able to recognize the Yangtze or Yellow River, or Mount Everest, on the >>> map. >>> >>> Joseph >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Tagging mailing list >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
