Oh goodness, I wasn't suggesting that we had a total solution, I was
pointing out that the gaming community was missing the point, even with
evidence in their hands.
That suggests we have not made the point to a technically aware part of
our community.
--dave
On 2024-05-06 20:43, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
Dave,
We just can’t represent that we have the total solution.
We need to show the problem can be reduced.
We need to show that latency is a significant negative phenomena.
Take out one contributor and sic the users to the next contributor.
If we expect to solve the whole problem in one step, we end up where
we are and effectively say the problem is too complex to solve.
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society,
Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair
IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
eugene.ch...@ieee.org
m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
On May 6, 2024, at 2:11 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I think that gamer experience doing simple (over-simple) tests with
CAKE is a booby-trap. This discussion suggests that the real
performance of their link is horrid, and that they turn off CAKE to
get what they think is full performance... but isn't.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/174k0ko/low_latency_gaming_and_bufferbloat/#:~:text=If%20there's%20any%20chance%20that,out%20any%20intermittent%20latency%20spikes.
(I used to work for World Gaming, and follow the game commentators
more that I do now)
--dave
On 2024-05-06 07:25, Rich Brown via Starlink wrote:
Hi Gene,
I've been vacillating on whether to send this note, but have decided
to pull the trigger. I apologize in advance for the "Debbie Downer"
nature of this message. I also apologize for any errors, omissions,
or over-simplifications of the "birth of bufferbloat" story and its
fixes. Corrections welcome.
Rich
------
If we are going to take a shot at opening people's eyes to
bufferbloat, we should know some of the "objections" we'll run up
against. Even though there's terrific technical data to back it up,
people seem especially resistant to thinking that bufferbloat might
affect their network, even when they're seeing problems that sound
exactly like bufferbloat symptoms. But first, some history:
The very idea of bufferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in
2011 [1] couldn't believe it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At
the time, it seemed incredible (that is "not credible" ==
impossible) that something could induce 1.2 seconds of latency into
his home network connection. He called in favors from technical
contacts at his ISP and at Bell Labs who went over everything with a
fine-toothed comb. It was all exactly as spec'd. But he still had
the latency.
This led Jim and Dave Täht to start the investigation into the
phenomenon known today as "bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency
that comes from a router or other network equipment buffering too
much data. Over several years, a group of smart people made huge
improvements: fq_codel was released 14 May 2012 [3]; it was
incorporated into the Linux kernel shortly afterward. CAKE came in
2015, and the fixes that minimize bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arrived in
2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] arrived to handle varying speed ISP
links. All these techniques work great: in 2014, my 7mbps DSL link
was quite usable. And when the pandemic hit, fq_codel on my OpenWrt
router allowed me to use that same 7mbps DSL line for two
simultaneous zoom calls.
As one of the authors of [2], I am part of the team that has tried
over the years to explain bufferbloat and how to fix it. We've
spoken with vendors. We've spent untold hours responding to posts on
assorted boards and forums with the the bufferbloat story.
With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily set about to tell the
world about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met with
skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the objections?
- This is just the ordinary behavior: I would expect things to be
slower when there's more traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of
magnitude increase in delay.)
- Besides, I'm the only one using the internet. (Except when my
phone uploads photos. Or my computer kicks off some automated
process. Or I browse the web. Or ...)
- It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. That's probably when
something's uploading photos, or your computer is doing stuff in the
background.)
- Those bufferbloat tests you hear about are bogus. They
artificially add load, which isn't a realistic test. (...and if you
actually are downloading a file?)
- Bufferbloat only happens when the network is 100% loaded. (True.
But when you open a web page, your browser briefly uses 100% of the
link. Is this enough to cause momentary lag?)
- It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to use the internet when
I'm gaming. (Huh?)
- I have gigabit service from my ISP. (That helps, but if you're
complaining about "slowness" you still need to rule out bufferbloat
in your router.)
- I can't believe that router manufacturers would ever allow such a
thing to happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story above.)
- I mean... wouldn't router vendors want to provide the best for
their customers? (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires
engineering effort. They're selling plenty of routers with
decade-old software. The Boss says, "would we sell more if they made
these changes? Probably not.")
- Why would my ISP provision/sell me a router that gave crappy
service? They're a big company, they must know about this stuff.
(Maybe. We have reached out to all the vendors. But remember they
profit if you decide your network is too slow and you upgrade to a
faster device/plan.)
- But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. But see [5])
- Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router". Obviously, I
bought the most expensive/best possible solution on the market (But
I still have lag...)
- You're telling me that a bunch of pointy-headed academics are
smarter than commercial router developers - who sold me that $300
router? (I can't believe it.)
- And then you say that I should throw away that gaming router and
install some "open source firmware"? (What the heck is that? And why
should I believe you?)
- What if it doesn't solve the problem? Who will give me support?
And how will I get back to a vendor-supported system? (Valid point -
the first valid point)
- Aren't there any commercial solutions I can just buy? (Not at the
moment. IQrouter was a shining light here - available from Amazon,
simple setup, worked a treat - but they have gone out of business.
And of course, for the skeptic, this is proof that the
"fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a solution - it seems just like snake
oil.)
So... All these hurdles make it hard to convince people that
bufferbloat could be the problem, or that they can fix for themselves.
A couple of us have reached out to Consumer Reports, wondering if
they would like a story about how vendors would prefer to sell you a
new, faster router (or new faster ISP plan) than fix your
bufferbloat. This kind of story seemed to be straight up their
alley, but we never heard back after an initial contact. Maybe they
deserve another call...
The recent latency results from Starlink give me a modicum of hope.
They're a major player. They (and their customers) can point to an
order of magnitude reduction in latency over other solutions. It
still requires enough "regular customers" to tell their current ISP
that they are switching to Starlink (and spend $600 to purchase a
Dishy plus $100/month) to provide a market incentive.
Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopeful that things will
get better. We know the technology exists for people to take control
of their network and solve the problem for themselves. We can
continue to respond on forums where people express their dismay at
the crummy performance and suggest a solution. We can hope that a
major vendor will twig to this effect and bring out a mass-market
solution.
I think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is intriguing.
They're highly motivated to make their personal networks better. And
actually solving the problem would have a network effect of bringing
in others with the same problem.
Good luck, and thanks for thinking about this.
Rich Brown
[1]
https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bufferbloat.pdf
[2]
https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
[3]
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html
[4] https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate
[5]
https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Bufferbloat/#what-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos
On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Of course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. They have
control of everything else.
With our high latency and wide range of values, the eSports teams
train on campus. It will be interesting to see how much
improvements there can be for teams to be able to training from
their homes.
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society,
Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair
IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
eugene.ch...@ieee.org
m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
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System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain
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