Thanks Neville, Most balances these days are built around a strain gauge, an electronic gizmo based on piezo-electrics. They are extremely sensitive and accurate in relation to the old springs. I do not know what scale/balance you have but regardless, all I am saying is that weight does not change with temperature. The Spg of any liquid changes with temperature because the volume changes, not because the weight changes. Hooke’s law governing springs’ elasticity does not account for changes in temperature but I do take your word for it that there is some deviation. If you have a suspension of 5 ppm of silver (Spg 11) in water, there is no way that you can pick up the change in ppm at that level with a 0.001 g scale o even a 0.00001 g. balance. Consider the orders of magnitude you are dealing with. They are way too small to be detected by weight. Cheers Frank
From: Neville Munn Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 6:40 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: CS>Wet weight? No intrusion Frank. Just had a light bulb moment! I believe I see what Tom was referring to about 'scale inaccuracies'. Temperature could affect the accuracy of the scales {digital} which could result in differing weight readings? I can only assume scales of this nature would have a spring or such operating it, therefore the tension or compression of that spring would change with air temperature, and in measuring on such a small scale as this, ie, down to 0.001g, it would make it difficult to get any accuracy at all...Yes/No? If one were to do this with any degree of accuracy one would need to use a 'balance' scale, whilst trying to maintain a constant water temperature. You've got me thinking now though. The SG of water changes with temperature doesn't it? Which means the weight of the solute may not change, as you say, but the weight of the water would...Yes/No? If this is the case, then in effect I'm measuring the weight of water more than anything else...Yes/No? Sorry, but I think it best if I back out of this now cos I'm no physics professor and I'm going to rapidly get out of my depth here. Praps *I* was the one intruding in the first place <g>. Still, I guess I learnt something from it...the scales go back in the cupboard! N. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS>Wet weight? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:49:32 -0500 Hi guys Forgive me for intruding but .....The best analytical balances have a sensitivity of 0.0001 gm. and an accuracy of +-0.0002. If you are adding 5 parts per million of a compound with a specific gravity of 11 (silver) to a liquid with a Spg of 1.0 (distilled water) , how do you expect to pick up the difference in weight? Weight does not change with temperature. Only the volume does. Whether you “cluster” ions or not their weight does not change. Vortexing water will not change the weight. But if you introduce air, for example, you are changing the density and that is another matter. Keep in mind that weight is a direct reflection of mass and mass does not change with temperature, vortexing, etc. Hope it helps Frank From: Neville Munn Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 7:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: CS>Wet weight? I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the same exercise this morning and although measurements are different today from yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of that I have no doubt. However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to several factors just off the top of my head: a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling, which in turn will heat water/solution contained within {can only afford to do the procedure once}? b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the plain DW may not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used DW temp from yesterday} c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken. {again, manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp rising praps} d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion cluster characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is probly an unknown* e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent batches. Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the water and see what difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother as I don't think my weighing exercise was of any use}. Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe this method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this because as an example, the medicine cup weighs more today than yesterday {room temperature may be heating things a tad?}. Just too many external influences and variables that can affect results to be of any practical use. The idea seemed good in principal, but I don't think it works in practice, nevermind, if one never never goes one never never knows. If nothing else it's made me question any possible differences there may be between weight characteristics of Ag ions in solution and ion clusters {particles} in solution...if any? N. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:20:53 -0500 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS>Wet weight? How confident are you of your measurements? Basic chemistry says that water with silver in it should have a density which is higher, not lower than distilled water. However there have been a number of reports that nanosilver structures water, sort of like homeopathy. If that is the case, then any restructuring, or crystalization of the water would be expected to have an effect on the density. If your measurements are indeed correct, this may be confirmation of those reports. Marshall
