Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

Il giorno 24/ago/2014, alle ore 13:30, Friedrich Volkmann ha scritto: >> And now for caving. > > When there's a visible trail inside a cave, it's essentially the same as an > outside trail. Therefore, I support highway=path (or footway) in such a case. > > But I disadvise the mapping of non-

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 18 August 2014 16:10, Pieren wrote: > correct me if I'm wrong but a cave is always > underground Not strictly speaking; some are in the sides of (near) vertical cliff faces or mountain sides, with no horizontal, accessible ground above them. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewi

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 18.08.2014 17:10, Pieren wrote: > I'm afraid that the main problem here is not the use "location" or > "layer" or "cave" but "highway=path". This tag was created for > multiple vehicles ways, not exclusive to a transportation like > footways or cycleways. Currently the wiki tries to reflect this

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

I'm afraid that the main problem here is not the use "location" or "layer" or "cave" but "highway=path". This tag was created for multiple vehicles ways, not exclusive to a transportation like footways or cycleways. Currently the wiki tries to reflect this in the "path" definition: "A route open t

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

This would be preferably tagged precisely with a whole new proposal like for piste:difficulty, sac_scale, or whitewater:grade by speleo addicts, IMO. On 14 août 2014 16:16:54 UTC+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: >2014-08-14 15:56 GMT+02:00 John F. Eldredge : > >> Plus, our mapping scheme is limi

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

Hi, First, let us not confuse speleology and tourism. OSM is the most interesting for touristic caves to walk in 2D. Speleologists have their own 3D maps showing where to crawl. I worked in a touristic cave when I was a student and I can tell you that the paths look very much like man-made, especi

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 17:49 GMT+02:00 John Packer : > Forget routing in caves. There's no GPS. And those who get lost without >> routing apps will get lost in a cave anyway. >> > +1 > +1 But as always there are edge cases - for example it may be useful for routing during preparing a trip. There are caves tha

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

Sent from my iPad > On Aug 14, 2014, at 7:49 AM, SomeoneElse wrote: > >> On 14/08/2014 12:18, Dan S wrote: >> 2014-08-14 12:01 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : >>> ... >>> I am not sure about English terminology. In German, we call natural cavities >>> "Höhlen" (caves), and artificial cavities "

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 05:32:20PM +0200, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > On 14.08.2014 13:18, Dan S wrote: > > >>> I think that it is an obvious idea, but wiki claimed that "At the moment > >>> there just a > >>> tag to map the entrance to a cave." despite fact that existing tags fit > >>> well. > >

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

> > Forget routing in caves. There's no GPS. And those who get lost without > routing apps will get lost in a cave anyway. > +1 2014-08-14 12:32 GMT-03:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > On 14.08.2014 13:18, Dan S wrote: > > >>> I think that it is an obvious idea, but wiki claimed that "At the > moment >

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14.08.2014 16:54, Richard Z. wrote: >> Maybe not completely obvious, but I would agree with Janko. In my opinion, >> a "tunnel" is man-made, while a "cave" is not. > > whether or not man-made is not the biggest problem. > > The big problem with tunnel=yes or tunnel=cave is that they only would

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14.08.2014 13:18, Dan S wrote: >>> I think that it is an obvious idea, but wiki claimed that "At the moment >>> there just a >>> tag to map the entrance to a cave." despite fact that existing tags fit >>> well. >> >> No, they do not fit. Caves are complex three-dimenional structures. In most >

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote: > Maybe not completely obvious, but I would agree with Janko. In my opinion, a > "tunnel" is man-made, while a "cave" is not. On the whole, yes, but there are some artificial underground cavities that are referred to as caves, I think, suc

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

I agree on the general strategy, but in this case I don't think cave=yes would work fine by itself as these are underground ways that require to be interpreted as being underground. With that it is required to interpret the new tag to handle these ways in a useful way. Using tunnel=cave would make

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 12:31:28PM +0200, Martin Vonwald wrote: > 2014-08-14 12:25 GMT+02:00 André Pirard : > > > On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : > > > > Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this with > > cave=yes. Other than that, I have no problems with this

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 15:47 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić : > The reason "renderers don't render it" is invalid because of one of the > oldest rules in OSM: don't tag for the renderer. > This would be applicable after defining tunnels as man made (in case that somebody is using this tag anyway because of renderer

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 15:56 GMT+02:00 John F. Eldredge : > Plus, our mapping scheme is limited in its ability to record > three-dimensional spaces. I don't know how we would map "this is one > continuous passage, but with a deep pit in the center, so you will need > special equipment to bridge the gap." > b

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14.08.2014 12:47, Dan S wrote: > Well, no-one ever supports "new" tagging, the question is if it's > needed. But I agree, I can't see a benefit keeping it separate. Are you suggesting that there are no relevant differences between a man-made tunnel and a cave? I can think of a lot – naturally f

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

Plus, our mapping scheme is limited in its ability to record three-dimensional spaces. I don't know how we would map "this is one continuous passage, but with a deep pit in the center, so you will need special equipment to bridge the gap." On August 14, 2014 6:35:52 AM CDT, John Packer wrote:

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 12:24 GMT+02:00 André Pirard : > > On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : > > Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this with > cave=yes. Other than that, I have no problems with this. If a cave has two > cave entrances, then information that they are connec

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14/08/2014 12:35, John Packer wrote: One question. How would people map a cave? (answering in case it wasn't a completely rhetorical question): One option is the same way that people mapped before GPSs arrived - accurately measure a baseline and triangulate from it. Obviously it's subst

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14/08/2014 12:22, André Pirard wrote: I know I still have to learn that OSM is fuzzy, but using "cave=yes" for paths would first need a definition of it in the "highway=*" page. No, it really wouldn't(1). Cheers, Andy (1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like - and yes,

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 2014-08-14 13:35, John Packer wrote : > One question. > How would people map a cave? It depends on your definition of "how" but this could be an answer . > As far as I know, GPSes don't really work underground, and obviously > there is no sattelite imagery

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 13:35 GMT+02:00 John Packer : > One question. > How would people map a cave? > As far as I know, GPSes don't really work underground, and obviously there > is no sattelite imagery for them. > I imagine that's why there is no scheme right now. > 2D Public Domain map, imported as layer

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14/08/2014 12:18, Dan S wrote: 2014-08-14 12:01 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : ... I am not sure about English terminology. In German, we call natural cavities "Höhlen" (caves), and artificial cavities "Stollen" (adits?). A straight "Stollen" with an entrance on each end is a "Tunnel" (tunnel

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

One question. How would people map a cave? As far as I know, GPSes don't really work underground, and obviously there is no sattelite imagery for them. I imagine that's why there is no scheme right now. 2014-08-14 8:22 GMT-03:00 André Pirard : > On 2014-08-14 12:31, Martin Vonwald wrote : > >

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 2014-08-14 12:31, Martin Vonwald wrote : > 2014-08-14 12:25 GMT+02:00 André Pirard >: > > On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : >> Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace >> this with cave=yes. Other than that, I have no pr

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 12:01 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > On 14.08.2014 07:29, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: >> I added to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cave#Tagging_in_OSM how >> these may be mapped > > Given that you want to discuss wiki changes, you should start the discussion > before you actually do t

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 13:01 GMT+02:00 Friedrich Volkmann : > Given that you want to discuss wiki changes, you should start the > discussion > before you actually do the changes. You should also refer to this mailing > list thread in the comment of your wiki change, or in the talk page. I > received an automa

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14.08.2014 12:40, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > Note, I am not a native speaker - maybe it sound terrible You might find correct translations on http://www.uisic.uis-speleo.org/lexuni.html. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 14.08.2014 07:29, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > I added to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cave#Tagging_in_OSM how > these may be mapped Given that you want to discuss wiki changes, you should start the discussion before you actually do the changes. You should also refer to this mailing list th

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 11:40 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny : > 2014-08-14 12:31 GMT+02:00 Martin Vonwald : > >> 2014-08-14 12:25 GMT+02:00 André Pirard : >>> >>> On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : >>> >>> Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this with >>> cave=yes. Other than tha

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

Sorry, it was supposed to be "using highway as key also for private roads". 2014-08-14 12:40 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny : > > > > 2014-08-14 12:31 GMT+02:00 Martin Vonwald : > > 2014-08-14 12:25 GMT+02:00 André Pirard : >> >>> On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : >>> >>> Well first, tun

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 12:31 GMT+02:00 Martin Vonwald : > 2014-08-14 12:25 GMT+02:00 André Pirard : > >> On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : >> >> Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this with >> cave=yes. Other than that, I have no problems with this. If a cave has two >> c

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

2014-08-14 12:25 GMT+02:00 André Pirard : > On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : > > Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this with > cave=yes. Other than that, I have no problems with this. If a cave has two > cave entrances, then information that they are connect

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 2014-08-14 11:08, Janko Mihelić wrote : > Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this > with cave=yes. Other than that, I have no problems with this. If a > cave has two cave entrances, then information that they are connected > by footpaths is valuable information. > > Ja

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

On 2014-08-14 07:29, Mateusz Konieczny wrote : > I added to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cave#Tagging_in_OSM how > these may be mapped ("tunnels that are available for humans but closed > for typical > tourists may be mapped as highway=path with tunnel=yes and access=private, > and routes ava

Re: [Tagging] Mapping cave tunnels passable by human

Well first, tunnel=yes is obviously wrong. We need to replace this with cave=yes. Other than that, I have no problems with this. If a cave has two cave entrances, then information that they are connected by footpaths is valuable information. Janko 2014-08-14 7:29 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny : >