Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Even though the bridges were not the best example, I would not dismiss their importance. Maybe a better example is when two roads (numbers) run on the same asphalt. It is not uncommon in my country and probably possible elsewhere. There is support for this - that is JOSM + RelationToolbox plugin.

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Bridge ref & highway ref: bridge ref should have a specific tag, such as bridge:ref=whatever Two roads meet at roundabouts: roundabout has higher-ranking (ie lower) number, unless the higher-ranking road has a flyover or underpass. Or don't have a ref. None of the issues raised justify changing a

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hello Peter, you have raised interesting question, so I'll try to address at least some of the questions regarding editor support and describe it from my point of view (as user of Merkaartor). Peter Wendorff wrote: > The point is to keep the correct, even if deprecated work of local > mappers int

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi, On 08/01/12 19:41, "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundament

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 02.08.2012 11:42, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Peter Wendorff wrote: There are two big differences between CSS and the proposed relation stuff. 1) The inventors of CSS provided a working implementation for core CSS features 2) For a considerably long time css was used only very sparse a

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Peter Wendorff wrote: > There are two big differences between CSS and the proposed relation stuff. > 1) The inventors of CSS provided a working implementation for core CSS > features > 2) For a considerably long time css was used only very sparse and most > of the time with a html4 styling "fallbac

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 01.08.2012 22:56, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Peter Wendorff wrote: If you rise a flag for the consumers side and decrease the mapping useability with that, these mappers will go away - and afterwards most probably the data consumers will follow, because there's no (updated) data any m

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Peter Wendorff wrote: > If you rise a flag for the consumers side and decrease the mapping > useability with that, these mappers will go away - and afterwards most > probably the data consumers will follow, because there's no (updated) > data any more in a reasonable quality and quantity. I did no

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hello Chris, please, do not put words into my mouth. I did not call you or any other OSM contributor a monkey. And I did not call any consumer "super important". If you think, I did, I kindly ask you to read my email again and more carefully. Chris Hill wrote: > most people who make grand stateme

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 01.08.2012 21:02, schrieb Mike N: On 8/1/2012 2:51 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote: Bing I think provided the imagery, but I don't think we really got much mappers through bing. Apart from the news we got due to that in the press, I don't even believe many bing users REALIZE that they use an open pr

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On 8/1/2012 2:51 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote: Bing I think provided the imagery, but I don't think we really got much mappers through bing. Apart from the news we got due to that in the press, I don't even believe many bing users REALIZE that they use an open project where they could contribute.

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 01.08.2012 19:41, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Frederik Ramm wrote: Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundamental

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Chill guys. Refs and street names on ways are OK in most countries. So leave well alone. Data consumers can and do cope. If you're one of the few places that use multiple refs on a single street, then code them by local agreement - probably using relations. Yes, relation support should improve.

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On 01/08/12 18:41, "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundamentally d

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Paul Johnson wrote: > So fix the other editors. Potlatch is notoriously painful when it > comes to relations, and it really shouldn't be. Sigh. Are you going to quantify that and offer some suggestions (or, hey, some code), or just throw around unsubstantiated assertions? Richard -- View t

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Frederik Ramm wrote: > Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards > making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; > consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundamentally disagree. Consumers and data usability is importa

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > Obviously you haven't used it enough otherwise you would know better. > It had so many bugs over time the list of broken relations is endless. > Read the archives and you will see. > It has been improved over the years but still far fr

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Aug 1, 2012, at 7:01 AM, Simone Saviolo wrote: > > I use mostly JOSM which has good relation support. But still it's a pain and > a challenge. Just downloading a huge relation takes too much time. No editor > can fix this because it's the nature of the data model. > > What's painful and ch

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi, On 08/01/2012 04:01 PM, Simone Saviolo wrote: What would consumers' assumptions be, reasonably? I think that we are talking too much about consumers here. OpenStreetMap mappers are *already* providing a tremendous value to many "consumers" around the world, no matter how limited and chao

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 01.08.2012 17:24, schrieb Simone Saviolo: 2012/8/1 Peter Wendorff > Am 01.08.2012 16:01, schrieb Simone Saviolo: Do you know how many editors are out there? and there are bots all kinds of scripts with API upload support ... Feel free to fix

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: > I apologize if my words sounded harsh or offending. I admit that I'm > not regular user of Potlach, so my knowledge of it is kind of limited. I can tell... you can't even spell it. ;) (Sorry, cheap shot. But it's PotlaTch.) > 1) Pointless members of relations, e.

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

"Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" wrote: On the other side of the spectrum is Potlach, which makes anything involving relations overly complicated. I've fixed my share of relation bugs, that I dare to say came from these poor editing capabilities. I've resurrected about half a dozen relations since t

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: >> On the other side of the spectrum is Potlach, which >> makes anything involving relations overly >> complicated. I've fixed my share of relation bugs, that I dare to say >> came from these poor editing capabilities. > > Wow. When was th

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012/8/1 Peter Wendorff > Am 01.08.2012 16:01, schrieb Simone Saviolo: > > > Do you know how many editors are out there? and there are bots all kinds > of scripts with API upload support ... Feel free to fix all of them. As far > as I know not a single editor for mobile applications has any rela

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 01.08.2012 16:01, schrieb Simone Saviolo: 2012/7/31 Apollinaris Schöll > Instead of saying "don't impose your views on others", you should provide an argument why the proposal is bad and ideally, propose alternative solution to the presented

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: > On the other side of the spectrum is Potlach, which > makes anything involving relations overly > complicated. I've fixed my share of relation bugs, that I dare to say > came from these poor editing capabilities. Wow. When was the last time you used Potlatch? 1873

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012/7/31 Apollinaris Schöll > Instead of saying "don't impose your views on others", you should >> provide an argument why the proposal is bad and ideally, propose >> alternative solution to the presented problem. This way, I can react >> with counter-argument, or admit that the original propos

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

These are all good arguments but I think we should give more credit to mappers. Sorry if I'm being boring but I will again come back to OSMonitor reports that Polish community is now using for fixing roads - since I started publishing the reports every day I am shocked by how quickly people fix stu

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Nobody suggests that all information is immediately transferred to relations.But in this particular case where one real-world linear objects is represented by many OSM primitives (better yet if these primitives are common for more objects), relations seem to be the clearly right way to go. 2012/7/

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 10:41 PM, LM_1 wrote: > Actually almost any proposal containing relations is criticised from > this perspective (relations being too complex/complicated for > mappers). If you explain OSM to an average newcomer, not a geek or a s/w dev: - yes, concept of relation is compli

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 6:11 AM, "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" < xific...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > What worries me is that very often in threads like this, two "arguments" > and their variations against the change come up. > 1) You are a bad, because you try to impose your preferences on others. > no

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Actually almost any proposal containing relations is criticised from this perspective (relations being too complex/complicated for mappers). You say someone has to do the coding, I disagree. It has already been done. JOSM with RelationToolbox plugin and, as Petr says, Merkaartor are handling relati

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: > This is actually not an argument against any tagging proposal, > but argument for improving relation handling in editors. I don't think anyone's arguing with that. But are you offering to do the coding? Because someone has to. cheers Richard -- View this me

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hello, first of I'm sorry for a bit longer mail, but this is just another example of what gets me worried about the future of OSM. This thread is another one of those, where someone came to discuss a specific problem and proposed a solution, a solution that changes a few old things. I fear that i

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 31.07.2012 12:12, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Peter Wendorff wrote: Am 31.07.2012 10:33, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": If he knows for sure, that on that road from point A to point B is ref=42 and not ref=56 as the OSM data says, then the user should fix it as I wrote in previous

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Peter Wendorff wrote: > Am 31.07.2012 10:33, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": >> If he knows for sure, that on that road from point A to point B is >> ref=42 and not ref=56 as the OSM data says, then the user should fix >> it as I wrote in previous email. Remove the ways from the current >> relat

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Paweł Paprota wrote: > The recommendation of using relations in this case is just to kick > off the whole thing and define some base line for collaboration - > not because I desperately am itching for fixing some technical > design problem in OSM. In theory there is certainly a logic to using re

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 31.07.2012 10:33, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Kytömaa Lauri wrote: Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: 2) A relation exists with member ways without ref tag. This means that the route is essentially mapped and any further editor is correcting errors, that he found. Then someone comes and

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi, On 07/31/2012 09:31 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote: No. We only create relations when the ref tag is not sufficient. We don't recommend that relations be created for roads otherwise, and anyone doing anything with the data should not expect relations to be there. How would you define "sufficient"

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012/7/31 Peter Wendorff : > If you ever worked with mappers who do mapping in their spare time and are > not digital natives, programmers or database geeks, you will have seen some > who don't touch stuff as soon as it's too complex: Better keep the wrong > data than to break something that of cou

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 31.07.2012 10:33, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": If he knows for sure, that on that road from point A to point B is ref=42 and not ref=56 as the OSM data says, then the user should fix it as I wrote in previous email. Remove the ways from the current relation and add the correct ref tag

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Kytömaa Lauri wrote: > Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: >> 2) A relation exists with member ways without ref tag. This means that >> the route is essentially mapped and any further editor is correcting >> errors, that he found. Then someone comes and adds a ref tag to one of >> the ways - why? > >

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: >2) A relation exists with member ways without ref tag. This means that >the route is essentially mapped and any further editor is correcting >errors, that he found. Then someone comes and adds a ref tag to one of >the ways - why? He drove by, and saw a different re

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012, at 23:55, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > No. We only create relations when the ref tag is not sufficient. We > don't recommend that relations be created for roads otherwise, and > anyone doing anything with the data should not expect relations to be > there. > How would you d

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Peter Wendorff wrote: > I'm not talking about data duplication in the meaning of "I add my data > twice in different ways", but about redundant (not duplicate) data in > the meaning of "Sven added his data there not nowing that it's possible > here too; I add the data here - and you can check if we

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi, On 30.07.2012 23:41, Paweł Paprota wrote: But maybe I should have made it clearer in the first place that I'm talking about major roads - this stuff really should be in tip top shape (relations created, no discrepancy with ref on ways/relations etc.) No. We only create relations when the r

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

As I wrote before in this thread in response to the hiking trail example - this is great, I myself love mapping forest tracks for mountain biking and stuff. But maybe I should have made it clearer in the first place that I'm talking about major roads - this stuff really should be in tip top shape

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 30.07.2012 20:11, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Hi Peter, Peter Wendorff wrote: I think, this would lead to a situation where the error count doesn't decrease, but the remaining errors aren't detectable any more. Having refs only on relations means for a data consumer: I have to use th

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

> there are different types of errors and you focus on one only. I am not > going to argue with examples or explanations. If you don't want to see it > you won't see it. > I'll try to give another example, which may or may not help Pawel to see what you mean: I'm gathering information about bus r

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote: > > > > > the more redundancy the more > > automated checks can be done to find errors. > > > > Sorry if I am being too harsh, I am not trying to be mean or anything > but... I don't understand how this sentence would be true in any > context

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Tobias Knerr wrote: > If two instances are created at least somewhat independently* This is a really bold assumption. I'm having a hard time to imagine a real-life scenario, where this is true. On the other hand, I can imagine scenarios where the cross-check will fail simply, because someone who

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

David, As I wrote - I am only producing reports for Poland and for my country there are very few complex situations and it really is straightforward to clearly see data duplication - having ref on ways has no value because everything is expressed in relations. > > If you have a tool that says "US

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Route relations are good because they offer a structured format to identify and describe a route, such as US Bike Route 25, or Fairfield County Highway 177. Ref tags on ways now are a good place to use shorthand, like USBR 25 or CR 177. When multiple routes overlap, the ref tag on the way is an o

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On 30.07.2012 20:08, Paweł Paprota wrote: >> the more redundancy the more >> automated checks can be done to find errors. > > Sorry if I am being too harsh, I am not trying to be mean or anything > but... I don't understand how this sentence would be true in any > context. More redundancy, especia

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi Peter, Peter Wendorff wrote: > I think, this would lead to a situation where the error count doesn't > decrease, but the remaining errors aren't detectable any more. > > Having refs only on relations means for a data consumer: I have to use > this data and I have no idea if it's correct - I hav

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012, at 19:44, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > this logic is completely flawed. humans are not robots working on a list > of problems to solve. As you learned from your experiment there is a > inconsistency and now you can work to fix it. This is how osm works and > it is great t

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

On Jul 30, 2012, at 10:32 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote: >> But what leads you to the assumption that the data get's better when we >> agree to only use ref on relations or only use ref on ways? > > Well my logic is simple - less duplication = less data to maintain = > more time mappers can spend on

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

> But what leads you to the assumption that the data get's better when we  > agree to only use ref on relations or only use ref on ways? Well my logic is simple - less duplication = less data to maintain = more time mappers can spend on checking the quality of the data. If I understand your point

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 30.07.2012 18:58, schrieb Paweł Paprota: Hi Peter, I understand what you're saying about ease of use but at the same time I am very concerned about the quality of data - it is clear from reports that there are just so many errors that the ref data is virtually useless for navigation or locati

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi Volker, Great example. Based on what you wrote I think my point is strictly about road network then. For (major) roads refs are well defined, easily obtained and verified. People are creating whole roads in one sitting based on Bing imagery and this is great - they add relation, insert ways int

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

>From a practical point of view, I have always considered this a two stage approach. My concern are cycle and walking routes, not too much the road network. Especially for hiking networks, as a mapper you encounter the white and red labels, often with signposts and numbers, but you are unaware of

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi Peter, I understand what you're saying about ease of use but at the same time I am very concerned about the quality of data - it is clear from reports that there are just so many errors that the ref data is virtually useless for navigation or location purposes. I feel like there is no clear co

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Am 30.07.2012 18:22, schrieb Paweł Paprota: Hi all, As part of the Poland remapping effort I have implemented a reporting system called OSMonitor which analyzes road network in Poland in OSM data and produces reports. Recently one user requested additional validation - checking if ways in a rela

[Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

Hi all, As part of the Poland remapping effort I have implemented a reporting system called OSMonitor which analyzes road network in Poland in OSM data and produces reports. Recently one user requested additional validation - checking if ways in a relation for a specific road contain proper "ref"