On 2011-04-19, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I'm have problems figuring out how to receive UDP broadcast packets on
> Linux.
Thanks to everybody for their help with what turned out to have little
or nothing to do with Python itself.
The main problem was reverse-path filtering (which is
On 2011-04-21, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2011-04-20, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>>>> I agree though that you're kind of pushing IP in a d
sensors return a NaN when the value is unkown/invalid it
seemed logical to continue with that paradigm in my Python code -- and
it pretty much "just works".
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! If elected, Zippy
x27;s in a float is a NaN, so all 9's in a BCD value is a NaN. Sort
of makes sense if the BCD operations propogate "all-nine" values or
raise exceptions when they are encountered (that's a big if).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! If elected, Zippy
bytes addressed from 0 to max-int or max-long"
thing is merely an implicit assumption made by bad C programmers.
--
Grant
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ather like a macro language
(e.g. cpp) which merely performs a textual substitution of the
argument name (the difference between pass-by-name and macro
substitution is that the context of the argument evaluation is
different).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards
topic,
> actually.) It's not so wrong to think of Python's parameter handling as
> ordinary assignments from outer namespaces to an inner namespace.
As long as you think of "ordinary assignments" the Python way and not
the C or PL/I way. :)
--
Grant Edward
lly expect the opposite: callees above, callers below, main at
the bottom. However, that's mostly just a habit left over from C
programming where such an ordering avoids having to litter the file
with forward declarations for functions.
--
Grant
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
going to do the OP much good. Quoting from
the web page:
"Pexpect does not currently work on the standard Windows Python"
> http://www.noah.org/wiki/pexpect
Seriously? Yellow on brown text?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! When this load is
On 2011-05-04, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2011-05-04, Matty Sarro wrote:
>>> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM, ETP wrote:
>>>> I have a dos program (run in a window) that I would like to control
>>
nately the difficulty in debugging and maintaining code is
often directly proportional to the cleverness exhibited by the
original programmer.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm also against
at BODY-SURFING!!
> data item on the call stack as a parameter.
C is pass by value.
if I call foo(x)
And this is foo:
void foo (float param)
{
param = 1.23
}
The value of x in the caller's namespace is not changed. If C used
pass by reference, x would change.
--
Grant Edwards
On 2011-05-04, harrismh777 wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> We do not consider passing a pointer as*by value* because its an
>>> > address; by definition, that is pass-by-reference.
>> No, it isn't. It's pass by value. The fact that you are passing
On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> The "pass by value" and "pass by reference" parameter passing
>> mechanisms are pretty well defined, and C uses "pass by value".
>
> Yeah, that's kind-a funny, cause I'm one o
by_value_ to a
function. That function then uses the "*" operator to use that value
to access some data.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! DIDI ... is that a
at MARTIAN name, or, are we
gmail.comin ISRAEL?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
using a language that doesn't directly implement such constructs. You
might as well say that C is a linked-list language like Lisp since you
can write a linked list implementation in C. If you said that you'd
be just as wrong as saying that C uses call-by-reference.
--
Grant Ed
eter. Every time the callee needs to
> refer to the parameter, it evaluates this function.
>
> This allows some neat tricks, but it's massive overkill for most
> uses.
It also is a very good source of surprising bugs.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow!
Who is "most of the world" ?
Pretty much everybody except you.
Please see:
> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/comphelp/v8v101/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.xlcpp8a.doc%2Flanguage%2Fref%2Fcplr233.htm
Yea, I read that. It doesn't support your argument. It agrees with
th
naive
NetBSD "C" version. When we switched to the FreeBSD stack (and a
newer compiler) a few years later, my assembly code got tossed out
because was no longer any faster than the C version.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Half a mind is a
itecture
And a lot of the are still full-up Harvard architecture (e.g. the
entire Atmel AVR family and Intel 8051 family for example).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! When this load is
at DONE I think I'l
On 2011-05-05, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2011 14:14:22 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 wrote:
>>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>> The "pass by value" and "pass by reference" parameter passing
>>
ecessary wear on the syncros (and
I've had cars with pretty weak syncros -- Alfa-Romeo Spyders were
famous for the 2nd gear syncro wearing out).
> and if that isn't automatic, I don't know what is
No, that's _not_ automatic if you have to do it yourself. It's
a
On 2011-05-05, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article ,
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> That's what I was trying to say, but probably not as clearly. The "&"
>> operatore returnas a _value_ that the OP passes _by_value_ to a
>> function. That function then
do some really cool stuff in the deep end.
Until you get pulled under and drowned by some flailing goof who
oughtn't be there.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Zippy's brain cells
at are straining to brid
On 2011-05-07, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> if you feel it just right and you have just the
>>>right synchro-mesh setup, you can slide from 3rd into 4th without
>>>every touching the clutch peddle...
>>
>>>and if that isn't automa
se.
>
> Who says it has to have the Pascal/Fortran/etc sense?
Because it's easier to communicate if everybody agrees on what a word
means.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! The SAME WAVE keeps
at coming in and COL
On 2011-05-10, Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:05:34 + (UTC), Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>: Because it's easier to communicate if everybody agrees on what a word
>: means.
>
> Why should we agree on that particular word? Are there any other words
&
code bases out there?
The owner of something is free to determine how it is distributed --
he doesn't have any obligation to prove to you that some particular
method of distribution is harmful to him or anybody else.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow!
r 25+ years, almost all in C,
and I don't think I've never seen such a compiler. Even on the
register-starved 6800 architecture, the first parameter was passed in
a register. On architectures with more registers (H8, MSP430, ARM,
etc.) It's usually the first 3 or so parameter
follows
>> can be described in full.
>
> This I disagree with. If a section of code is interesting enough to
> deserve an explanation, then it is better to capture it in a
> helpfully-named function with its doc string having the explanation.
I consider docstrings to be the same as com
picture
of them, my initial reaction is almost always "no, that's not at all
what I thought he/she looked like". Odd.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I demand IMPUNITY!
at
On 2011-05-27, Irmen de Jong wrote:
> On 27-05-11 15:54, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2011-05-27, Ben Finney wrote:
>>> Richard Parker writes:
>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2011, at 4:28 AM, python-list-requ...@python.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>&
ual to itself.
No, it's not.
>>> x = float("nan")
>>> y = x
>>> x is y
True
>>> x == y
False
> I can't cite this in a spec, but it makes sense (to me) that two things
> which are nan are not necessarily the same nan.
Even if they _are_ the same nan, it's still not equal to itself.
--
Grant
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
on
>> python-dev, and the decision was to leave things as-is.
>
> On Sonntag 29 Mai 2011, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> Even if they are the same nan, it's still not equal to itself.
>
> if I understand this thread correctly, they are not equal to itself
> as specified by IEEE
code so it's
purpose and operation is obvious from the code, and then delete the
comment.
--
Grant
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ogation of
non-signalling nans, the behavior of infinities, etc.
> I'm glad I don't often need floating point numbers. They can be so
> annoying!
They can be -- especially if one pretends one is working with real
numbers instead of fixed-length binary floating point numbers.
On 2011-06-01, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article
> Carl Banks wrote:
>
>> pretty much everyone uses IEEE format
>
> Is there *any* hardware in use today which supports floating point using
> a format other than IEEE?
Well, there are probably still some VAXes around in o
t would violate the IEEE standard. IEEE-754 has it's warts, but
we're far better off than we were with dozens of incompatible,
undocumented, vendor-specific schemes (most of which had more warts
than IEEE-754).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm dressing
of rules, but it's almost
universally considered bad style and you will lose points with your
teacher, editor, etc.
On the inter-tubes generally indicates you're shouting, or just a
kook. I guess if either of those is true, then it's good style.
--
Gr
On 2017-09-05, Andrej Viktorovich wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I suppose I can run python module by passing module as param for executable:
>
> python.exe myscr.py
>
> But how to run script when I'm inside of console and have python prompt:
>
>>>>
os.system(
recent GCC on a 32-bit CPU, it generated pretty much the same
code either way...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Someone in DAYTON,
at Ohio is selling USED
gmail.comCARPETS to a
ecorded with 'O'
> despite going first, which is contrary to the conventions of the
> game.
I assumed that was a regional thing.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! You mean you don't
at want to watch WRESTLI
and written a
'bytes' class for Python2 that would be compatible with Python3.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Uh-oh!! I forgot
at to submit to COMPULSORY
gmail.comURINALYSIS!
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
've
never heard anybody try to pronounce TCL/Tk.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Now we can become
at alcoholics!
gmail.com
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
"credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> i=1
>>> i=+
File "", line 1
i=+
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>>>
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! It's NO USE ... I've
at gone to "CLUB MED"!!
gmail.com
--
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3. No matter how hard you try, Tkinter apps always look a bit
foreign. I've just given up trying to them to look like native
apps: it doesn't work, and it annoys the mule.
[1] After wasting several days fighting with TCL's quoting sematics, I
gave up and wrot
probably said it aloud less than a half-dozen
times in the past twenty-whatever years.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
k in my undergrad days we used AHPL and
implemented something like a simplified PDP-11 ISA.]
Alternatively, you should design an instruction set and implement it
using microcode and AM2900 bit-slice processors.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Could I
just adding to the cost.
When I was a kid, making change like that was something we were all
taught in school. I have a feeling that's been dropped from most
curricula.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! MMM-MM!! So THIS is
at
et the lowest price that way. (But you also
get the lowest price applying them in any other order.)
A simple experiment would show that it doesn't matter, but none of the
ever thought to try it.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Send your questions to
, SPARC) it's fine (in some wasy
simpler and easier than on many 8-bit processors). On x86_64 it's a
mess -- just like it was a mess on x86 (and to a large extent on
8086).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! So this is what it
On 2017-09-20, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> Alternatively, you should design an instruction set and implement it
>> using microcode and AM2900 bit-slice processors.
>
> AMD2900? That's cheating! You should design and build your
> own logic gates.
Now I am supposed to add /what/ to the cost?
>>Start at the smallest end. You need to make 21 cents up to 25. So hand
>>back four pennies.
>
> Yes, but to know this ("four") I have to do a /subtraction/:
>
> 25 - 21 = 4.
No, you don't. You start at &qu
; y1 = map(math.sin, math.pi*t)
> plt.plot(t,y1)
>
> However, at this point, I get a TypeError that says
>
> object of type 'map' has no len()
you probably need to convert y1 from a 'map' object (a type of an
iterator) to an array.
y1 = map(ma
to be used in all threas
arguing about what to call the Python argument passing scheme? That
way the other 99% of us could pre-emptively plonk it?
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! My BIOLOGICAL ALARM
On 2017-09-26, alister via Python-list wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 14:16:47 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-26, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> On 9/25/17 10:20 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 02:54 am, Ned Batchelder wrote:
&g
thon for twenty years, and I don't think I have
> ever once read from a file using a while loop.
You're right, that construct isn't used for reading from files in
Python. It _is_ commonly used for reading from things like sockets:
mysock.connect(...)
while
On 2017-10-05, bartc wrote:
> Note that Unix way isn't the ONLY way of doing things.
Of course not, but it is the CORRECT way of doing things.
:)
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Am I in GRADUATE
at SC
On 2017-10-06, Thomas Jollans wrote:
> Seriously? sys.stdin can be None? That's terrifying.
Why?
Unix daemons usually run with no stdin, stderr, or stdout.
And yes, people do write Unix daemons in Python.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! VICARIOUSLY ex
On 2017-10-06, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2017-10-06, Thomas Jollans wrote:
>>
>>> Seriously? sys.stdin can be None? That's terrifying.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Unix daemons usually run wi
eal with remote systems connected via satellites
links, low-bandwidth RF modems, and whatnot. Even cellular network
connections often have high latency and low bandwidth.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! BELA LUGOSI is my
at
run a lot of GTK programs from the command line, and I would say 90%
or more of them spew a steady stream of meaningless (to the user)
diagnostic messages. That's pretty sloppy programming if you ask
me...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow!
editor, and then a separate terminal (or, as
> I tend to do, *many* separate terminals) to run commands in.
Indeed, I find that to be very efficient. I'm always amazed how long
it takes people to accomplish simple tasks when they refuse to use
anything other than eclipse and a web br
On 2017-10-06, bartc wrote:
> For sort, there is no real need. You use a text editor to create
> your data. Then use existing file-based sort.
I sort streams on stdin far more often than I sort named files.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Do you like &
On 2017-10-07, bartc wrote:
> Interactive Python requires quit() or exit(), complete with parentheses.
Nonsense. On Unix you can just press ctrl-D (or whatever you have
configured as eof) at the command prompt. On windows, it's Ctrl-Z
.
> Unless you've redefined quit and exit as something else
source programs is
far, far better -- maintainers often actually care whether the program
works correclty and does useful things.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
don't get me started on command-line utilities that use colored
output that's only usable if yor terminal is configured with a black
background. Hint to gentoo portage authors: yellow-on-white text is
_not_ readable.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
syslog.syslog("%s: %s\n" % (sys.argv[0], traceback.format_exc()))
sys.exit(1)
If it's a GUI program, then popping up an error dialog instead of
sending it to syslog might make more sense -- if you can be reasonably
sure that the GUI framework is still oper
t;
> Using Ctrl+Z (0x1A) isn't specific to Python. The Windows CRT's
> text-mode I/O inherits this from MS-DOS, which took it from CP/M.
Which took it from RSX-11. Or probably more specifically from
FILES-11. I woldn't be surprised if the enineers at DEC got it from
somewhere else before that.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 2017-10-09, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> Which took it from RSX-11. Or probably more specifically from
>> FILES-11. I woldn't be surprised if the enineers at DEC got it from
>> somewhere else before that.
>
> Quite possibly it goes back to
t sub-gigabit network speeds. The toolkit designers have botched
things up so that even the most trivial operation requires hundreds of
round-trips between server and client.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Did YOU find a
at
On 2017-10-09, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards :
>
>> On 2017-10-09, alister via Python-list wrote:
>>
>>> or if you want the luxury of a GUI editor simply ssh to the remote
>>> machine & run the editor there (using X forwarding to route the
>>
+--+
> | Wayland |
> | compositor |
> +-+
>
>
> Which will get rid of the network transparency altogether.
For all practial purposes, X11 network transparancy has been gone for
years: it only works for apps that nobody cares about. I still u
p='' each time?
Yep.
Just define a new function with a new name:
def myprint(*args, **kw):
print(*args, sep='', **kw)
Redefining builtins is just going get you sworn at down the road a
bit. If not by yourself, then by somebody else...
--
Grant Edwards
On 2017-10-11, Bill wrote:
> [...] I'm not here to "cast stones", I like Python. I just think
> that you shouldn't cast stones at C/C++.
Not while PHP exists. There aren't enough stones in the world...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards
sually not as bad as the
> example), crop up often enough to be a nuisance.
The easiest way to make stuff like that readable is to unroll them
into a sequence of typedefs. But, a lot of people never really
learn how to do that...
--
Grant Edwards
On 2017-10-11, Bill wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-10-11, Bill wrote:
>>
>>
>>> [...] I'm not here to "cast stones", I like Python. I just think
>>> that you shouldn't cast stones at C/C++.
>> Not while PHP exists. Th
world...
>>>>
>>> PHP seems (seemed?) popular for laying out web pages. Are their vastly
>>> superior options?
>> Python? Superior syntax for sure
>
> I believe that. What accounts for the popularity of PHP then?
I ask myself that ev
ng, but it's very incomplete, and leaves a _lot_ of things
undefined.
Of course the PHP lanugage itself is such a mess, it's often not very
easy to understand what's going on.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
in Python?
I like them in C because it allows the linker to place them in ROM
with the code. It also _sometimes_ provides useful diagnostics when
you pass a pointer to something which shouldn't be modified to
something that is going to try to modify it.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ues.
Nope. If sizeof char is not 1, then it's not C.
That doesn't mean that a char can't be 9, 11, 16, 20, 32, or 64 bits,
but sizeof char is 1.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
st with strings in C with amateurish libraries is a headache
because _some_people_ will write their declarations so as to require
pointers to mutable strings even when they have no intention of
mutating them. Those people should be hunted down and slapped with a
herring until they understand the er
g through their teeth.
That's indeed a problem. Personally, I would just use two prototypes:
char *strcstr(const char *s, char *s);
const char *cstrstr(const char *s, const char *s);
Whether you want to invoke some linker-script magic to make them refer
t
On 2017-10-12, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 04:41 pm, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>
>>> Even two
>>> different C compilers could return different values.
>>
>> Nope. If sizeof char is not 1, then it's not C.
>
> Today I Learned.
Windows have had to convert all of our applicatoins
which used to use raw packets to use UDP instead. I'm told that
recent windows versions have made raw packet access from userspace
(even by admin apps) virtually impossible.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Hello?
On 2017-10-12, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards :
>
>> Using const with strings in C with amateurish libraries is a headache
>> because _some_people_ will write their declarations so as to require
>> pointers to mutable strings even when they have no intention of
On 2017-10-12, Rhodri James wrote:
> On 12/10/17 16:06, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-10-12, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 04:41 pm, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Even two different C compilers could return different values.
>
On 2017-10-12, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 02:06 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> It sure was an education the first I wrote C code for
>> a machine where
>>
>> 1 == sizeof char == sizeof int == sizeof long == sizeof float == sizeof
>> double
On 2017-10-13, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Grant Edwards writes: There is no such
>>thing as a "byte" in C.
>
> ยป3.6
>
> 1 byte
>
> addressable unit of data storage large enough to hold
> any member of the basic character set of the exec
e a difference, and everyone's
> acknowledged this - PHP built up some inertia - but there's now no
> real reason for it other than "it's popular, therefore people use it".
Well, it's said that suffering builds character...
What they don&
build machines that simulated armies of ladies
> with sewing needles!
I interviewed at a company that was still making core memory in 1989.
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
gmane, I don't bother with it.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Were these parsnips
at CORRECTLY MARINATED in
gmail.comTACO SAUCE?
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 2017-10-16, Paul Moore wrote:
> On 16 October 2017 at 15:41, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-10-16, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 10/15/2017 10:50 PM, Andrew Z wrote:
>>>> Gents,
>>>> how do i get this group in a newsreader?
>>>
>>>
ften far easier and faster to also include a main() for deveopment
and testing of the functions provided to the GUI.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! ONE LIFE TO LIVE for
at ALL MY CHILDREN in
from run to run (it may be the same "place" in the
>
> Since the process virtual memory space should be the same on each run
Not with modern OS kernels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization
--
Grant Edwards
tion is
>> identical to those or the original string, so it can share them.
>
> That explains why b is larger than a to begin with
No, that size difference is due to the additional bytes required for
the internal representation of the string.
> but it doesn't explain why float(b)
can have accidental
coupling. With multiprocessing, code you have to explicitly work to
create coupling.
That said, I do a lot of threading coding (in both Python and C), and
have never found it particularly tricky.
It does require that you understand what you're doing and probably
doesn&
home I looking for the approach with the least learning curve.
When I want to test C modules (usually destined for an embedded
system) using a Python framework, I use ctypes.
https://docs.python.org/3/library/ctypes.html
--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
fset = ctypes.sizeof(ctypes.c_size_t) +
>ctypes.sizeof(ctypes.c_voidp)
>|>>> ob_ival = ctypes.c_int.from_address(id(value)+ob_ival_offset)
>|>>> ob_ival.value = 3
>|>>>
>|>>> print 2
>|3
I vaguely remember being able to do that in some implementa
gt; guarantees are out the window.
In FORTRAN, the only language gurantees were
1) When running your program, you'd almost, but not always, get all
of your cards back.
2) The probability (P) of finding an available IBM 29 cardpunch was
approximately D**2 where D is how many day's
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