ically typed polymorphism. It seems to me they are
kind of at odds with static type analysis, especially if you want
type inference -- kind of a type laundering system, where you can't
tell what was supposed to be there by looking at the code. Some
alternatives would be needed, I
Quoth Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| "Donn Cave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|> Yes, it would be really weird if Python went that way, and the
|> sort of idle speculations we were reading recently from Guido
|> sure sounded like he knows better. But it&
ipped from Haskell, that would be an atrocity.
It may not be essential, but it's eminently useful and natural.
Is it useful and natural in Python? Is it worth breaking code over?
Why do we even bother to discuss this here? There aren't good answers
to those questions.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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on't by any means agree that this notation is worth adopting, and
in general I think this kind of readability issue is more or less a lost
cause for a language with Python's scoping rules, but the motive makes
sense to me. One way to look at it might be, if I observe that "wo
sonally I wouldn't care to predict anything here. For all I know,
someday we may decide that we need cooler and more efficient computers
more than we need faster ones.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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e left
hand side of the where clause. What you're trying to do here seems
to have almost nothing to do with that.
If Python 3 is going to get assignment-as-expression, it will be
because GvR accepts that as a reasonable idea. You won't bootleg it
in by trying to hide it behind this "where" notion, and you're not
doing "where" any good in trying to twist it this way either.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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her. :)
I'm with him. List incomprehensions do not parse well in
my eyes. I am reduced to guessing what they mean by a kind
of process of elimination. map is simply a function, so
it doesn't pose any extra reading problem, and while lambda
is awkward it isn't syntactically a
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Jacek Generowicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > List incomprehensions do not parse well in my eyes.
>
> Are you familiar with the Haskell syntax for list comprehensions?
>
> Fo
d spawn call in test.py I do not get any output to
| /tmp/test.out and it also returns immediatly. Can anyone tell me why?
Might be a problem finding 'sh', since in this case you call spawnl(),
not spawnlp(). Just a guess. Also you ought to know that the return
from os.spawnl(os.P_WAIT, ...) will not be a pid, rather a status that
carries a little (very little) information about the problem.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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t close
the pipe. The parent could then read the pipe, even
for a NOWAIT case like this, and possibly contrive to
re-raise the fork's exception if one showed up. This
would account for the class of errors that occurs between
the fork and the exec. The _spawnvef I'm looking at
doesn't account for these very well - 127 covers a lot
of ground, and there wouldn't be much in the way of
error output.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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doubt there are situations where a path lookup
is essential, but it just hasn't been happening to me.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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r.
Rigorous application of the model can be a little awkward, though,
if you're trying to adapt it to a basically procedural application.
The original Stackless Python implementation had some interesting
options along those lines.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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t unexplained is ``true "is-a" relationships''. Sounds
like an implicit contradiction -- you can't implement
something that truly is something else. Without that, and
maybe a more nuanced replacement for "is-implemented-using-a",
I don't see how you could really be sure of the point.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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s your "is-a" test? What is-a dictionary, or is-not-a
dictionary? If you ask me, there isn't any obvious principle,
it's just a question of how we arrive at a sound implementation --
and that almost always militates against inheritance, because
of liabilities you mentioned els
a lot
like Rectangle, it still has a couple of differences, and
the difference could be a problem in some contexts designed
for Rectangle - but no one can fix that. If you need Square,
you'll implement it, and whether you choose to inherit from
Rectangle is left as a matter of implementation
really attractive FP language, maybe out
of the "links" initiative by Wadler et al.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ry about the
first one, since if data could be lost in this way it would
be much more complicated to close a file descriptor without
running this risk.
But I don't see the second one as much of a problem either.
The writer blocks - so?
Now, what would really be useful is a way for the writer to
detect whether open will block, and potentially time out.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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hut them out of the hardware internals. They use a Metrowerks
PPC compiler that of course hasn't seen much development in the last
6 years, probably a lot longer.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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the
nearest equivalent thing in their own familiar context. Say good
things about language X, and people will hear you saying "give up
using language Y and rewrite everything in language X." Then they
will conclude that if you would say that, you don't know very much
about their e
r temporary
files or something. You probably don't need to call Python from C,
may as well just invoke python (cf. os.spawnv)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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et, provided along with a
callback function by the application.
Am I hearing that wxWindows or other popular toolkits don't provide
any such feature, and need multiple threads for this reason?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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he problem is with the (Python)
program on the other end - it's buffering output,
because the output device is not a terminal.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Here is the child process script (bufcallee.py):
> import time
> print 'START'
> time.sleep(10)
&
quot;use the subprocess module."
If that's not helpful, either because it doesn't provide any
feature that allows you to close a descriptor in a fork (I seem
to recall it does), or it isn't supported in your version of
Python (< 2.4), then you have your choice of two slightly a
outside of North
America, citing failure to penetrate the "enterprise" market as a
reason. Ask the enterprise world if they think Python is changing
fast enough. Maybe they're giving up on Python because they decided
they'd never get code blocks. (Ha ha.)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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concepts you need most e.g. concurrency:
|
| http://cml.cs.uchicago.edu/
My vote would be Haskell first, then other functional languages.
Learning FP with Objective CAML is like learning to swim in a
wading pool -- you won't drown, but there's a good chance you
won't really learn to swim either. H
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Donn Cave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > My vote would be Haskell first, then other functional languages.
> > Learning FP with Objective CAML is like learning to swim i
m even (gasp) thinking of checking out Ada.
It's up to you, I'm just saying. Speaking of C++, would
you start someone with Python or Java for their first OOPL?
Kind of the same idea.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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;s global lock, instead of locks around each
memory management function etc.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Michael Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On the contrary, there are a couple. Ghc is probably the
> > leading implementation these days, and by any reasonable
> > measure
e (period.) They claim conformance
with the ISO C90 standard. I couldn't dig up a (free) copy
of that document, so don't know what it says on this matter.
GNU C man pages say it positions the stream at end for
write and at beginning for read.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Quoth "Terry Reedy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| "Donn Cave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
| news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
| > I don't think Python pretends to have any intentions here,
| > it has to take what it gets from the C library fopen(3)
| > funct
.
Along with already documented FreeBSD, I find MacOS X, NetBSD 2
and Ultrix 4.2 position the read stream to EOF. Linux, AIX and
DEC/OSF1 (or whatever it's called these days) position it to 0.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ly needed.
You are no doubt wondering when I'm going to get to the part where
you can exploit this to save you those 3 lines of code. Sorry,
it won't help with that.
| Is this related to Python's expression vs. statement syntactic
| separation? How can I be write this code more nic
Sure, if your function's type is "None | int", then certainly
you must explicitly check for None. That is not the case with
fileobject read(), nor with many functions in Python that
reasonably and ideally return a value of a type that may
meaningfully test false. In this cas
's
interpreter provides a cheap and moderately effective support
that compensates for most programmers' unrealistic assessment
of their skill and discipline. Not that you can't go wrong,
but the chances you'll get nailed for it are greatly reduced -
especially in an SMP environment.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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mply whether or how Python could support SMP.
Mike, care to mention an example or two of the better models you
had in mind there?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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uot;Timber" with some
added support for time as an event source. The most on topic thing
about it -- its author implemented a robot controller in Timber, and
the robot is a little 4-wheeler called ... "Timbot".
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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't
go anywhere, but she goes on to write a well articulated
case that makes very interesting reading, and possibly has
had some effect on how people think about it around here.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/2de5e1c8384c0360
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED
ot
a shell command.
The basic problem is that you have to fork first, then
exec, and by the time the forked interpreter finds out
that the exec didn't work, its parent has gone on to
do the I/O it's expecting. I think subprocess gets
around that, on UNIX, with a trick involving an extra
p
adline() instead (in a loop,
of course, I think you'll get the data one line
at a time, but "in file" apparently reads the
whole file first. That's what I vaguely remember,
I don't use it myself.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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What do you mean by, "the 9 element tuple need to be populated
correctly"? Do you need someone to tell you what values it
needs? What happens if you use (2005, 9, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0),
for example? If you make this tuple with localtime or gmtime,
do you know what the 7th (tm[6]) element of
, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0),
> > for example? If you make this tuple with localtime or gmtime,
> > do you know what the 7th (tm[6]) element of the tuple is?
> > What tricks did you try, exactly?
> >
> >Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Thanks for pointing out. tm[6
ing it there are supposed
to be two separate pipes from the same process, since if one is
allowed to fill up, that process will block, causing a deadlock if
the reading process blocks on the other pipe.
Hope I'm not missing anything here. I just follow this group
to answer this question over and over, so after a while it
gets sort of automatic.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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he mix, there are even more issues
as signals may be delivered to one thread and handled in another,
etc.
If you're dispatching on I/O, for example with select, you
can use an otherwise unused pipe to notice the child fork's
exit -- close the parent's write end right away, and th
figuration. The documentation
is probably the place to find out more about this stuff.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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sn't clear that this is all still allocated -
malloc() doesn't necessarily reuse a freed block right
away, and in fact the most interesting thing about this
experiment is how different this part looks on different
platforms. Of course we're still a bit in the dark as
to how much memory is really allocated for overhead.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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e tend to
be a lot of undefined behaviors in events like termination of the main
thread, receipt of signals, etc.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Dave Brueck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave wrote:
[... re stackless inside-out event loop ]
> > I put that together with real OS threads once, where the I/O loop was a
> > message queue instead of select. A message queueing mult
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz)
wrote:
> Yes. I just get a bit irritated with some of the standard lines that
> people use.
Hey, stop me if you've heard this one: "I used threads to solve
my problem - and now I have two problems!"
ses a function f over x and y this way
f(x, y)
sometimes this way (+ is a function, really)
x f y
and sometimes this way
x.f(y)
?
I don't know, I'm just thinking that while Python's notation might
be just fine for people who've gotten here the way most of us have,
it's not obvious from this that it's just fine 4 everyone.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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x27;t see ?)
>
> Why does the server block ?
Probably you're seeing the initial exchange of data during
the SSL connection - certificates and so forth. You may
find that after this is done, further exchanges will work
OK with select(). Or maybe not -- I really don't know enou
s
multiple file descriptors as data becomes available on them.
When using select(), you should read from the file descriptor,
using os.read(fd, size), socketobject.recv(size) etc., to
avoid reading into local buffers as would happen with a file
object.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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uot;. I have no idea what he was talking about, but you
might be interested in this issue.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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a derived class that does just what you want.
In the present case I guess that would mean something like
null = os.open('/dev/null', os.O_RDWR)
os.dup2(null, 0)
os.dup2(null, 2) (depending)
os.close(null)
along with other stuff you can just copy from Popen4.
Donn
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ot to mix buffered I/O (like file object
I/O functions) with select() at all, because select()
actually applies to system level file descriptors and
doesn't know anything about the buffer.
Get the file descriptor with fileno(), and never refer
to the file object again after that.
Donn Ca
a pipe, socket or similar, but it's
kind of implied by the use of select() also mentioned.
It's also kind of implied by use of the term "block" -
disk files don't block.
If we are indeed talking about a pipe or something that
really can block, and you call fileobject.read(1024),
it will block until it gets 1024 bytes.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Greg Ewing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave wrote:
> > If we are indeed talking about a pipe or something that
> > really can block, and you call fileobject.read(1024),
> > it will block until it gets 1024 bytes.
>
>
01]
You will get something more like what you want with
the str() function instead. str(1.775) == '1.775'
from types import FloatType
class ClassicFloat(FloatType):
def __repr__(self):
return self.__str__()
print map(ClassicFloat, [1.775, 1.949])
yields
rser seems to be ignoring the progress that
os.spawnv and popen2.Popen3 made on this. Of course you don't need
to repeat their blunders either and accept either string or list of
strings in the same parameter, which makes for kind of a shabby API,
but maybe a keyword parameter or a separate function would make sense.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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'/bin/su', ['su', '-c', '%s %s %s' % (cmd,
parameter1, parameter2)])
so you have almost as much work to scan the parameters for shell
metacharacters as you would have with system().
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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in scope
than what Haskell et al. do.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Quoth [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli):
| Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
| > He didn't dwell much on it, but there was some mention of type
| > inference, kind of as though that could be taken for granted.
| > I guess this would necessarily be much more limited in
han I did and you can decide for oneself whether
it's an important one.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ramming? What would he
say about unit testing to catch up with changes in
dependent modules, do you think? Do we have a
combinatorial explosion potential here?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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age for software development. Not a gem, but not a toy.
Someone who already has Objective CAML and Python on hand
might be interested in Felix, http://felix.sourceforge.net.
I haven't actually used it, and for all I know it fails my
utility test since it is not a very mature language, but
I mention in in case anyone is interested in what the author
of the "vyper" Python implementation is up to these days.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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point the way to
great programming models.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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functionality, or when they are conceptually related in ways that might lead
> to shared functionality later?
No -- inheritance is for implementation, not to express conceptual
relationship.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
parates statements from expressions".
|
| Python is for terse, pithy prose; Python is not for poetry.
That's an odd thing to say. Poetry is verbose, florid?
Python is Dutch.
Donn
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ge, and there is a
similar way to pass parameters to a function from a tuple.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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there is nothing I know of
that specifically distinguishes "the" external network.
If you want something that reliably finds a network that
will be used for a certain type of connection, then the
best thing to do is make a connection like that, and
inspect the results. The getsockname
array
a = array.array('c', strdata)
As I understand it, this object simply contains character data,
not a list of 1 character string objects, so it's much more
economical to store and examine.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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's a nested sequence,
not a linear one.
So I'm proposing that Python's = operator is like Haskell's "<-",
and "foo = 5" is conceptually like "bind 5 to a lambda with one
argument "foo" implementing the rest of the procedure body." The
confusion is not because foo needs to be so different, it's that
Python "=" is not at all math "=".
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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" means "important to implementors". Cf. my prior
post on this. Variables are semantically the same, "=" is different but
can be modeled in equational terms with a fairly simple transformation.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ifd = os.open('test.fifo', os.O_RDONLY)
...
while 1:
...
data = os.read(fifd, 8192)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
know it's purely internal and never
supported in Microsoft's own software for any of the client/server
protocols that use it elsewhere.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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the NUL characters,
you could probably write something. Again, you have
to be able to recognize the start of message data
(or rather, the first MBX message header line.) If
the NULs are gone, this is probably preceded by a
series of CRLF ('\r\n'.) Keep track of how much has
been writ
rary to do this, but more to the point it isn't what you
want to do, with a damaged file.
Just read the file from one end to the other and find everything that
looks like a header line, and then rewrite the file with adjusted header
lines required so that
- they are in ascending order by ID n
man from Chalmers. You're
right that addition is polymorphic, but that doesn't mean
that it can be performed on any two instances of Num. I had
constructed a test something like that to check my thinking,
but it turns out that Haskell was able to interpret "1" as
Double
ed expressions instead of series of
statements - so maybe it's not surprising if the layout notation
can be more complex.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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that the expression that appears there on the
right hand side of % is not and will never be a tuple, then
the (a,) one-tuple is unnecessary. If you aren't sure, it _is_
necessary.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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;]
foldr (++) [] [[1, 2, 3], [4, 4, 4]]
Really, this kind of abstraction of data types is not only well
supported in Haskell, it can be almost a curse, at least for
someone like myself who has fairly superficial experience with
this kind of programming. After all the functions have been
zealo
ons, I suppose, whether that's really
a good idea, since there's no question that some understanding
of the principles involved has to come fairly early. But I think
we really lose out when we try to make it be about the words -
"Python doesn't have variables"/"Does too", "Python passes by
value"/"Does not", etc. When the words really clearly express
the right thing to anyone with a reasonable background, that's
great. But usually, they don't.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Quoth Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
...
|> Historically, the way I remember it, there was a time not too
|> long ago when GvR and his minions sort of dismissed the idea
|> that you needed to understand the reference/object model from
|
higher up in the application
hierarchy. That might be an interesting philosophical question,
as a contrast between the basic world views of FP versus OOP, but
of course you'd want to check it with someone with a lot more
Haskell than I have.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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f so, how do I avoid the problem of
> wasting extra memory by having all of the children processes hold all
> of the data in memory as well?
Pipes might likely be a better idea, but a lot depends on the design.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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rives as a parameter with its properties unchanged, so obviously
the same semantics obtain.
Moreover, thinking about anything in terms of mutability is worse than a
waste of time, outside of a few odd cases like dictionary keys.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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nking that the processor affinity would
essentially serialize execution, so SMP hardware doesn't matter
because your threads won't execute concurrently anyway?
> Threads most often use Queue.Queue to communicate, precisely because its
> operations are guaranteed thread-safe.
(
They're special. I suppose because of internal dependencies - last
chance exception handler etc. - they are created without a close
function, internally, so close() has no effect. I don't know if it
really makes any sense, since anyway one may close the file descriptors
directly as
, you can set the 'close on exec' flag on
the pipe write end file descriptor and make sure no process holds
this open but the child fork. See the subprocess module for example
code (or just use the subprocess module, if it's supported in the
deployed Python version.)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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should be 1) avoid gratuitous branches in the flow
of control, 2) reduce number of state variables that you have to
account for, and 3) express your intentions clearly with respect
to the timeouts -- what do you do when it times out, and why?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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% self.value
dict['c1'] = Xtring('...')
print dict.values()
(Of course you should use unicode instead of string - if you can
figure out how to require the default encoding that supports
your character set. Python has an unfortunate preference for
"ascii" as a de
in believers are coming from.
People who don't already understand what's being explained, need
to have a little patience and make sure to test their understanding
with a few experiments.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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role
in programming (or mathematics), a thing whose value may vary according
to the logic of the program.
C and FORTRAN don't own this word, and it isn't just their version
against the way Python and some other languages do it. Each language
has its own angle on it, and they're all going to be called variables.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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arrot what was said in the
> past with no concern for the consequences of what we say?
The latter. I know this from the number of times I have read
that parameter passing has something to do with whether the
parameter is a mutable or immutable object.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
h
*/
}
Maybe the cure for hardened C programmers who aren't
getting it is to emphasize the pointer angle - and note
that there isn't any way to write "*i = 4". "Everything
is a pointer", let's say -- or maybe, "Everything is a
reference" would be
rite some software, and
if we dive in without understanding, our attempts will be plagued with
conceptual errors. Is there something about value in particular that
seems to be a problem here? ``No, you idiot, that's not a value -
THIS is a value!''
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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not subprocess, no problem
(I can use os.popen, or os.pipe/fork/execve, etc.) I imagine
this is related to the problem on Linux.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "Donn Cave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
> > So you've had time to think about how you would define value, in a
> > few words. Any ideas?
>
> Not y
#x27;t a simple problem. It isn't, in principle, it's
a huge bucket of worms. But if you have a practical focus that
comes out of your actual application for this function, it could
be pretty trivial. Your choice, and likewise for the notion of
value in general.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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straints on how you may use these
namespaces. You can use an instance, or a class, like you would use
a dictionary object, and then it's all value.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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