age for software development. Not a gem, but not a toy.
Someone who already has Objective CAML and Python on hand
might be interested in Felix, http://felix.sourceforge.net.
I haven't actually used it, and for all I know it fails my
utility test since it is not a very mature language, but
I mention in in case anyone is interested in what the author
of the "vyper" Python implementation is up to these days.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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point the way to
great programming models.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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functionality, or when they are conceptually related in ways that might lead
> to shared functionality later?
No -- inheritance is for implementation, not to express conceptual
relationship.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Quoth Scott David Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| Sunnan wrote:
| > ...Because what is "boring"? The opposite of dense, tense, intense. Utterly
| > predictable; it's like the combination of all my prejudices. Even before
| > I knew, I thought "Bet Python separates statements from expressions".
|
|
ge, and there is a
similar way to pass parameters to a function from a tuple.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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there is nothing I know of
that specifically distinguishes "the" external network.
If you want something that reliably finds a network that
will be used for a certain type of connection, then the
best thing to do is make a connection like that, and
inspect the results. The getsockname
array
a = array.array('c', strdata)
As I understand it, this object simply contains character data,
not a list of 1 character string objects, so it's much more
economical to store and examine.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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's a nested sequence,
not a linear one.
So I'm proposing that Python's = operator is like Haskell's "<-",
and "foo = 5" is conceptually like "bind 5 to a lambda with one
argument "foo" implementing the rest of the procedure body." The
confusion is not because foo needs to be so different, it's that
Python "=" is not at all math "=".
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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" means "important to implementors". Cf. my prior
post on this. Variables are semantically the same, "=" is different but
can be modeled in equational terms with a fairly simple transformation.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ifd = os.open('test.fifo', os.O_RDONLY)
...
while 1:
...
data = os.read(fifd, 8192)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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know it's purely internal and never
supported in Microsoft's own software for any of the client/server
protocols that use it elsewhere.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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the NUL characters,
you could probably write something. Again, you have
to be able to recognize the start of message data
(or rather, the first MBX message header line.) If
the NULs are gone, this is probably preceded by a
series of CRLF ('\r\n'.) Keep track of how much has
been writ
rary to do this, but more to the point it isn't what you
want to do, with a damaged file.
Just read the file from one end to the other and find everything that
looks like a header line, and then rewrite the file with adjusted header
lines required so that
- they are in ascending order by ID n
man from Chalmers. You're
right that addition is polymorphic, but that doesn't mean
that it can be performed on any two instances of Num. I had
constructed a test something like that to check my thinking,
but it turns out that Haskell was able to interpret "1" as
Double
ed expressions instead of series of
statements - so maybe it's not surprising if the layout notation
can be more complex.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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that the expression that appears there on the
right hand side of % is not and will never be a tuple, then
the (a,) one-tuple is unnecessary. If you aren't sure, it _is_
necessary.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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;]
foldr (++) [] [[1, 2, 3], [4, 4, 4]]
Really, this kind of abstraction of data types is not only well
supported in Haskell, it can be almost a curse, at least for
someone like myself who has fairly superficial experience with
this kind of programming. After all the functions have been
zealo
ons, I suppose, whether that's really
a good idea, since there's no question that some understanding
of the principles involved has to come fairly early. But I think
we really lose out when we try to make it be about the words -
"Python doesn't have variables"/"Does too", "Python passes by
value"/"Does not", etc. When the words really clearly express
the right thing to anyone with a reasonable background, that's
great. But usually, they don't.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Quoth Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
...
|> Historically, the way I remember it, there was a time not too
|> long ago when GvR and his minions sort of dismissed the idea
|> that you needed to understand the reference/object model from
|
higher up in the application
hierarchy. That might be an interesting philosophical question,
as a contrast between the basic world views of FP versus OOP, but
of course you'd want to check it with someone with a lot more
Haskell than I have.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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f so, how do I avoid the problem of
> wasting extra memory by having all of the children processes hold all
> of the data in memory as well?
Pipes might likely be a better idea, but a lot depends on the design.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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rives as a parameter with its properties unchanged, so obviously
the same semantics obtain.
Moreover, thinking about anything in terms of mutability is worse than a
waste of time, outside of a few odd cases like dictionary keys.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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nking that the processor affinity would
essentially serialize execution, so SMP hardware doesn't matter
because your threads won't execute concurrently anyway?
> Threads most often use Queue.Queue to communicate, precisely because its
> operations are guaranteed thread-safe.
(
They're special. I suppose because of internal dependencies - last
chance exception handler etc. - they are created without a close
function, internally, so close() has no effect. I don't know if it
really makes any sense, since anyway one may close the file descriptors
directly as
, you can set the 'close on exec' flag on
the pipe write end file descriptor and make sure no process holds
this open but the child fork. See the subprocess module for example
code (or just use the subprocess module, if it's supported in the
deployed Python version.)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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should be 1) avoid gratuitous branches in the flow
of control, 2) reduce number of state variables that you have to
account for, and 3) express your intentions clearly with respect
to the timeouts -- what do you do when it times out, and why?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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% self.value
dict['c1'] = Xtring('...')
print dict.values()
(Of course you should use unicode instead of string - if you can
figure out how to require the default encoding that supports
your character set. Python has an unfortunate preference for
"ascii" as a de
in believers are coming from.
People who don't already understand what's being explained, need
to have a little patience and make sure to test their understanding
with a few experiments.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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role
in programming (or mathematics), a thing whose value may vary according
to the logic of the program.
C and FORTRAN don't own this word, and it isn't just their version
against the way Python and some other languages do it. Each language
has its own angle on it, and they're all going to be called variables.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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arrot what was said in the
> past with no concern for the consequences of what we say?
The latter. I know this from the number of times I have read
that parameter passing has something to do with whether the
parameter is a mutable or immutable object.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
h
*/
}
Maybe the cure for hardened C programmers who aren't
getting it is to emphasize the pointer angle - and note
that there isn't any way to write "*i = 4". "Everything
is a pointer", let's say -- or maybe, "Everything is a
reference" would be
rite some software, and
if we dive in without understanding, our attempts will be plagued with
conceptual errors. Is there something about value in particular that
seems to be a problem here? ``No, you idiot, that's not a value -
THIS is a value!''
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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not subprocess, no problem
(I can use os.popen, or os.pipe/fork/execve, etc.) I imagine
this is related to the problem on Linux.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "Donn Cave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
> > So you've had time to think about how you would define value, in a
> > few words. Any ideas?
>
> Not y
#x27;t a simple problem. It isn't, in principle, it's
a huge bucket of worms. But if you have a practical focus that
comes out of your actual application for this function, it could
be pretty trivial. Your choice, and likewise for the notion of
value in general.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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straints on how you may use these
namespaces. You can use an instance, or a class, like you would use
a dictionary object, and then it's all value.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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nably object that "the same" ought to account for all properties
of a value, and not just equality. The issue doesn't seem to come up when
writing programs, though, in my experience.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ess True'
else:
print 'evidently not'
None doesn't follow the default, so it seems like "if" has discovered
some sort of value in there.
(But of course in any case, whether this is a value or not a value, the
value of the question is certainly in question.)
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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m[1] = 'h'
print m, [m]
I probably left out a few methods you would want.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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thon was really a simple language.
So this belongs in a different category from, say, lists and
dicts as default arguments. That is a natural usage, where
__eq__ is sort of a perversion if you will, and a Python
programmer should know about it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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had, that is so valid,
is that it is futile to talk about value, per se. Changing the
word you use will do nothing to improve this.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Claudio Grondi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave wrote:
...
> > exactly, "value". The realization you just had, that is so valid,
> > is that it is futile to talk about value, per se. Changing the
> > word you use
ot sure what's causing this. I suggest you invoke "ps" after a
hundred iterations or so - maybe "ps -ef", or "ps wwaux" on BSD
platforms like MacOS. I think the output may show a large number
of processes, and you will know where they came from.
Donn C
ou've immediately created it too.
> >
> > Sybren
>
> Thanks. Is that what atomic basically means?
Yes, and also "race condition". That's why Jim Segrave's
example code uses O_EXCL with open(2).
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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matters
like this should follow the underlying point of the code.
In this case, the body of the test refers implicitly to
the length of the list, since .pop() -> (list[a], list[:a])
where a is (len(list) - 1) It's therefore quite appropriate
for the test to be length.
Donn Cave, [
Yes, it's clearly more direct to catch IndexError, than to
try to anticipate it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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oogle.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/2de5e1c8384c0360
It's lengthy but very readable, and for me it has that quality of
exposition where you feel at first reading as though you had
already known all that -- even if you really hadn't.
But I don't know where she is today, or the P
x27;]
Oh, excellent - the string module is dead, long live
the string module! I can replace string.join with
str.join, and never have to defile my code with that
' '.join(x) abomination.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Antoon Pardon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2006-07-19, Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/2de5e1c8384c0360
> >
> > It's lengthy but very readable, and
tmpfile2').read()
>
> But that's kinda awkward isn't it? :-) The Bash way of doing this
> would be (suppose A is the stdout of prog2, B is the stdout of
> prog3):
>
> diff <(prog2) <(prog3) > C
>
> What is the best way of doing this i
ackground process; did it occur to you to try that
in Python?
> Anyway, I think every scripting language has its pros and cons. Bash is
> probably more flexible in dealing with fifos and multiway pipes (through
> the magic menchanism of process substitution).
Multiway pipes?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Rochester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I just found out that the gene
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>...
> > > > I believe your problem is that, by the time you open the
> > > > pipe for read, it has already been closed by its writer.
e class, and which should it keep local? What criteria might it
> use for making such a choice? How could you be sure that the decisions
> it made would be useful or appropriate?
Yes indeed. This must be OO fever in its most rarified form -
the notion that even mechanical conversion to
; rather, it just opens a file in
> the file system and uses fseek to move around.
Wow, you're sure a wizard! Most people would need to look before
making statements like that.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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there will be no values that include / in a context like
really looks like that X.500 style distinguished name.
So if you parse out that string in those terms, and require
each of those key = value pairs to have reasonable values -
key has no embedded spaces, value has non-zero length - then
you should be OK. Re-join any invalid component to its
predecessor's value.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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hat "if s == True", where s is not a boolean
object, might represent a gain in readability. That really
redefines readability.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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"if" -- well, we
just have to use what we have.
If there were better words to use with the notion of
"something-ness", I think we would see booleans as a silly
thing of little use to Python programmers. If you can see
"if" and "while" as constructs that respond to something-ness,
you will appreciate idiomatic Python better, because that
arguably is just what it's about.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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hat "if" and
"while" are asking for "yes" and "no", instead of "true"
and "false", and ask yourself if we have the philosophical
problems with "yes" that we do with "true".
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ing like
find . -name \*.mp3 -exec $HOME/bin/cvt .mp4 {} \;
where cvt would be something like
#!/bin/sh
case $1:$2 in
.mp4:*.mp3) mp3_to_mp4 $2 ${2%.mp3}.mp4 ;;
...
You'd have to think about it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ocol traffic,
and I don't remember needing to do any such thing there.
I'd have to look harder at the details, but as I recall it,
like any sane application the protocol is defined in terms of
data, so you know if you have a complete command by looking at
what you have.
Donn Cave,
6915448
> >>> id(a[1])
> 46912496915448
> >>>
You're right - he actually didn't set the name b to reference a
slice of a. But if he had - slicing a list does return a new list.
Indexing, as in the example, returns the item object. Or, binds a
reference to
e possible ... but then the documentation for __str__
right below it says "differs from __repr() in that it does not
have to be a valid Python expression". There's plenty of evidence
in the standard libraries that people understand these two functions,
but they certainly have arrived at that understanding from some
other route than reading the documentation.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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shell commands. Not that it strictly couldn't be done,
but on the whole I haven't noticed that anyone cares.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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(and os.WIFEXITED.) Not only does this do more precisely the
right thing, it will work on any platform that supports a
POSIX wait -- which doesn't require that exit == status << 8,
only that WEXITSTATUS be able to return that value.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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cpapen/newsletters %
> * LIST (\HasNoChildren) "/" "user/cpapen/organisatie &- structuur"
> * LIST (\HasNoChildren) "/" "user/cpapen/sociale wetenschappen"
{5}\r\nhello\r\n is an IMAP "literal". It's unlucky that
Cyrus uses this for
l
throw the select off. From memory - better check, since
it has been a while since I wrote anything real like this
(or for that matter much of anything in Python) --
import select
def ProcessOutput(instream, outstream):
fdr = [instream.fileno()]
(r, w, e) = select.select(fdr, [], [], 0.0)
ANG)
No, do you see them doing it? "Check if the previous child
process is done?"
In your original post you said you were using os.P_WAIT,
but I suppose you really were using os.P_NOWAIT all along,
right?
This case may call for a working sample program that makes a
genuine attempt t
never written are virtual blocks, inasmuch as read() at
that location will cause the filesystem to return a block of NULs.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ho tells you that there's nothing about the language that encourages
hard-to-read code. Give people a feature like this, and they will
find a need for it, to the detriment of comprehensibility.
I'm not saying that we should therefore use C++ !, but let's be
realistic about the costs of Python's benefits.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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disingenuous to me to make this argument, frankly.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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eds(), where the caller uses
the TGT to get a host service ticket, but I guess you could
use GSS ftp or something, anything that uses the TGT.
Otherwise, an attacker can pose as the KDC while logging in,
and give you a TGT regardless of what password was typed in.
Of course such a TGT won't wo
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
...
> Granted, it is a pain to change type declarations.
I see it is time for the bi-monthly reminder that C++ is not
the ideal example of strong static typing, unless you just
want to make it look bad. Cf. Hindley-Milner type inference.
Donn Cav
text
should be about whether you can test everything, whether
types convey semantics, etc. Let us forget about whether
explicit typing is too much overhead, since it isn't required
in principle.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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def bar(self, a, b):
return a + b
bar(Foo(), 1, 2) => 3
The virtues of this consistency become more apparent in a
more complex functional context:
sys.stdin.write(open(file, 'r').read().split(sep)[0])
vs.
write(sys.stdin, split(read(open(file, 'r')))[0])
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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The current call syntax at least can be read from left-to-right, and
> you always know whether you call a member function or a global one.
That's exactly the problem, it doesn't read from left to right,
because we swap back and forth between function(parameter and
parameter.function notation. It only works if you don't have
to mix the two. I'm saying, pick one and use it consistently.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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in the current scope.
But current scope is actually a compound lookup - function scope,
global scope etc. Generalize it to object scope, and then you
can have a notation that expresses these things consistently - QED.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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his, Haskell's typeclass mechanism, and there is a ``multiple
dispatch'' model that I have no experience with but is not without its
supporters.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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o be seriously
considered, someone would be hot to extend it to multiple objects before
it even got implemented on one, but in any case, single dispatch sounds
like just a restricted case of multiple dispatch, so if the latter is
feasible, so is the former. I've heard talk about a form of static
n/python', ['test1', '/tmp/test1'], os.environ)
$ ps wwaux | fgrep test1
donn 227 ... 1568 p1 S 9:30AM 0:00.19 test1 /tmp/test1
(instead of normal)
os.execve('/usr/bin/python', ['python', '/tmp/test1'], os.environ)
You ca
I described. That's something I expect to be standard
> operating procedure on any Unix (although I haven't spent much time outside
> Linux recently).
Does it depend on the question? If you have been checking
this with "ps", try "ps -f". There seem to be a
nt
> variables for locale, etc.).
>
> xterm's terminfo lists a lot of function keys, for instance.
This is just my opinion, but any application that depends
on function keys in terminfo is broken, automatically.
Optional support for function keys is a nice touch, but the
data isn't good enough out there to depend on it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> you'll continue to get an EOF forever.
They were probably thinking of the way the UNIX tty
driver delivers an EOF on D, after which of
course you can continue to read data from the same tty.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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venient but hides this step of the process.
Maybe 'localhost' actually doesn't resolve on the original poster's
computer, and the implementation somehow turns this into a type issue.
If it does resolve, then maybe its IP address will work better here.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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rned that there is no such
> thing as explicit typecasting. What to do?
If I understand what you're doing there, it seems to
confirm that when this socket implementation encounters
an error in a network address, during connect(), it
raises a type error. The thing to do, therefore, is
expect TypeError, where in C Python you would expect
a socket.gaierror or socket.error (in older versions)
exception.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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her way without ambiguity. Or we could, anyway, if
everyone else would get with it. If you're going to adopt this
sensible program, other short vowel words are roof, hoof, creek.
My grandfather pronounced hoop short, but I never heard anyone
else do likewise. Tuple rhymes with couple.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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. I have seen socket implementations where it
didn't, though - the read would end as if interrupted
by a signal.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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uot; with os.rename() if you don't
care that it will fail when the destination is on a different
filesystem. Etc.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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what would
be appropriate - maybe it was put inside WITH_THREAD in error, in the
first place, for all I know.
If you think you probably should be getting threads, then look at
pyconfig.h to verify this.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ommand. If it's the last thing the shell
has to do, then it can be exec'ed without a fork, which
leaves the gdb image running in the immediate child process.
Some shells do that automatically. In any case, a Bourne
shell "exec" statement will do it, like "exec /.../gdb
guous, but my guess is your
process just isn't done when you think it is. It's flushing
data to disk or something like that. Or it could be something
else. Why don't you write a sample program that works like
this, and demonstrates the problem, and then we'll know.
Donn Cav
",
but not "Python is a scripting language!", since its place in the taxonomy
of languages would be somewhere else.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ial Python users. The most obvious to me is that
your Python program essential includes its interpreter - can't go anywhere
without it, and any change to the interpreter is a change to the program.
There are various strategies to address this, but pretending that Python
isn't interpreted is not one of them.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ings (which is what '-1' would have been with the
classic UNIX shell.)
So I will leave it to someone else to wrestle with the Microsoft
problem, but I just wanted to point out that it isn't something you
could expect to work anywhere else.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
exity. I guess this is
why for some people, "scripting language" just means "interpreted and
suited to writing trivial programs." It's hard to believe they're
thinking very hard about what they're saying, but so what's new?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ingers and
hope that I have the required Python interpreter version, slip in a
25Mb Python interpreter install and hope I won't notice, or come clean
and tell me that your program needs an interpreter and I should check to
see that I have it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
e that starts with "No of course not",
even omits a point that everyone understands, you can in
fact expect a .py file will work independent of machine
architecture - like any interpreted language. We all know
what native code compilation buys you and what it doesn't.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
/j-native.html?loc=j
- which seems like it might be of some interest here.
My impression from reading this is that Java actually
can be compiled to native code, though in 2002 this
was relatively new.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
m that? Look for a recent thread here about
porting Python to LynxOS.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
interest in computer programming is likely to know what
microcode means, that there are emulators, virtual machines, etc. You
might find the UCSD Pascal system interesting, to harken back to the
early days of my experience with computers, a fascinating twist on the
interpreted/compiled story. Intere
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