rregular in the way it works.
A less irregular system would be nicer (hindsight is a wonderful thing)
It would have been nice to have had a less irregular system to start with
But we don't
Hence
Changing the current system represents upheaval
Does the change bring a net benefit?
Is that benefit worth the pain of the change?
Or do we stick with what we've got.
Nicholas Clark
e C
backslash constructions (except \v)" is an irregularity, not a feature. Every
non-useful irregularity removed aids advocacy, teaching and documenting,
without hindering programming.
Nicholas Clark
cally legal but undef both as rval and lval)
If it's lexically scoped, would it be for arrays declared in that scope, or
for arrays accessed in that scope?
I'm not sure. I think I see potential breakage both ways.
Nicholas Clark
On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:56:43PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> Similarly modules' formatting breaks if you set $/;
$\;
D'oh
> How many of the punctuation variables would be better with less-than-global
> scope?
Nicholas Clark
hing similar (doing it per array) but Bart's
explanation made me realise this was not wanted. One doesn't want to change
the array in any way, just how the local code sees arrays. Its use can
still be discouraged, but that's not the same as saying "never use this"
Nicholas Clark
C<< foo->bar >>
>
> If you squint, you can see those French chevrons poking out.
No-one ever did suggest adding « and » to the list of matched delimiters
that q() etc support, did they? :-)
Does Unicode define bracket pairings for character sets?
Nicholas Clark
nice.
Subroutine attributes instead? Default to current behaviour,
use strict; and you have to specify (in some way, prototype, attribute...)
whether each function has read-write or read-only @_?
Nicholas Clark
. Oh, and my code would be more likely to be documented
full stop than if I had to fight XML.
I speak only for myself here. (oh, and my boss, who thought the same)
Nicholas Clark
at only contains instructions on how to install BSD
Nicholas Clark
cale::hint_bits = 0x800;
" but I think not; even in perl5 it doesn't get initialised until the
code runs when the scope ends at the "1;" Modules that did
BEGIN {$locale::hint_bits = 0x800;}
still do what's expected of perl5 when written:
INIT {
BEGIN {$locale::hint_bits = 0x800;}
}
Nicholas Clark
nction __value_in_regs you get the results in r0 to r3.
Oh, and who said I didn't want to write my programs in perl and assembler?
Nicholas Clark
rl.org, which isn't
run by O'Reilly, the firm running perl.com). It's a reasonable question to
ask, but you'll be more likely to get a meaningful answer if you can find
an address as perl.com (no, sorry, I don't know offhand which address)
Nicholas Clark
hives, so I hope
I'm not asking an already asked question.
Nicholas Clark
$y'
does what you need because you actually want to do something a lot more
complex than simple "$y =~" in your expression.
Or do I guess wrong?
Nicholas Clark
ot;sleep" is often implemented using
"alarm".
So on a system that can't do a subsecond sleep, you do the integer sleep
and return (aargh, C and perl differ) how long you slept for.
How does the program discover if sleep can do subseconds?
use Config; ?
Nicholas Clark
ully, make it load faster.
I agree
dbmopen() already loads AnyDBM_File to do the real work without the
user (or script) knowing, so this idea could be extended.
Nicholas Clark
module%s\nchance of it all working %2g%%\n", $b, $n, ($n == 1 ? "" : "s"), ($b/100) **
$n * 100' 90 4
Proportion of stuff still working 90%
4 modules
chance of it all working 65.61%
[OK, not strictly fair, as 4 modules are not independent variables - they
may all happen to fall over on the same thing]
Changes have compound effects.
Nicholas Clark
right in
Makefile.PL]
and so on. But this has the disadvantage that you don't know how much
you're letting yourself in for (in terms of new modules) until you've
already started committing them to your installed tree.
Nicholas Clark
to the vtable code, too)
It's certainly possibly to read raw memory with suitable (ab)use
of pack and unpack in perl (P and p)
I can't remember if it's possible to write to raw memory, and I'm
not currently on an operating system where I can test this sensibly.
But it's not obvious, safe or portable.
Nicholas Clark
ld be implemented by pushing the post block onto the list of things
> to do at scope exit, at run time.
I quite like this idea. (I certainly like the ability to say "clean up this
thing at the end of scope whatever exceptions may happen)
But part of me feels it should be a POST block.
Because it's behaving much like CHECK or END
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:15:41PM -0600, David L. Nicol wrote:
> Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:30:24PM -0600, David L. Nicol wrote:
> >
> > > sub has_post_blocks{
> > > my $i = 3;
> > &
owards being able to do this (see the experimental
PerlIO::gzip on CPAN for gunzip in a perlio layer)
4: Can't do XS
5: not sure if it's a sick hack or an elegant hack
It is also possible to place the include zipfile on the end of the perl
executable and put $^X in @INC to make a 1 file perl distribution, but
I don't think anyone ever tried this
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 10:59:00PM -0600, David L. Nicol wrote:
> Nicholas Clark wrote:
>
> > on the other hand, I'll argue the other side that
> >
> > {
> > my $flag
> > open FOO, " > ...
> > }
> > post {
> > close
ot
> inappropriate, assuming we can get permission. )
Do we really want to use tar format (over say cpio) as tar rounds files
up to 512 block boundaries, and has some arbitrary restrictions on filename
lengths in the headers?
Nicholas Clark
On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 12:41:34PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 05:39 PM 2/8/2001 +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >Do we really want to use tar format (over say cpio) as tar rounds files
> >up to 512 block boundaries, and has some arbitrary restrictions on filename
> >l
ess zip entries via regular
perl filehandles. (In theory this could let you run scripts direct out of a
zip without actually unpacking them anywhere)
Layers of some form are needed in perl6 to cope with utf8 and other
encodings, so I would expect the perl6 layer functionality can also be
extended to zip manipulations.
Nicholas Clark
is true for memory.
reduce, reuse, recycle.
The first R might also be important :-)
Nicholas Clark
nu tar.
"Get New Utilities" as I've heard it called by the advocates.
(yes, I get irritated when I forget that BSD cp doesn't have a -a flag)
However, in our portability quest "Get New Utilities" is not good
[unless we package TomC's Perl Power Tools and just use those]
Nicholas Clark
t; As I said on this I disagree.
>
> I have no problem with in the first implementation round doing just zip:
> what I abhor is the idea of hardwiring the zip assumption deeply into
> our design.
I would agree - hardwiring is to be avoided.
Nicholas Clark
On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:25:42PM -0600, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
> I assume the next logical thing to add would be MD5?
Yes, well before zip (IMHO). It would make CPAN.pm a happy bunny, and should
make the world (feel) more secure.
This is now really perl5 isn't it?
Nicholas Clark
m.
how very unix - combine small tools to get a job done :-)
]
Nicholas Clark
t see why we need to decide on actual format right now. Surely
what we want to be able to do with it is more important?
2: Is this really still language? If not, where should we be discussing it?
Nicholas Clark
On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:14:58PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 05:45:17PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > When I last tried it (over a year ago) running the 5.005 regression tests
> > with the standard libraries coming out of a zip file took about th
ttleneck is
I suspect that perlbench would also not object to OO code for benchmarking.
Nicholas Clark
ules that expect to be able to seek
I've not yet met any of them
Autoloader works no problem once all the .al files are in a zip
(it uses require)
s/zip/something else/g to generalise
Nicholas Clark
actually make writing perl scripts easier. You'd know when your
disk became full (or you went over quota), albeit in with a messy error.
OK, script crashing with an uncaught exception isn't nice, but it's nicer
than silently losing data IMHO.
Nicholas Clark
dup because it stops AUTOLOAD being invoked to search for
one.
Nicholas Clark
I've never actually seen any code that makes
> use of it. I have grown somewhat tired of writing, and teaching, "return
> if $AUTOLOAD =~ /:DESTROY$/", however.
Doesn't
sub DESTROY {}
have the same effect but with less typing?
Nicholas Clark
[where () round all three would make it do what he meant]
best way to shoot down my suggestion is an example where existing behaviour
can't be determined from void/scalar/list context.
Nicholas Clark
On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:29:33PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 08:19:27PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 09:05:55PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 11:23:10AM -0800, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> &
tor
[I am neutral as to whether using .. as concatenation is a good idea]
Nicholas Clark
inds a non-conformant feature on the platform?
[hmm. for things that C99 doesn't break in C89]
Nicholas Clark
I think I like
the verbose version we're going to keep, even though you are suggesting it
is *im*perfect. :-)
Nicholas Clark
to the bytecode on disk that can't actually be
serialised? So the attempt at serialisation of a file handle, directory
handle, database handle, shared memory handle or any other external resource
should fail? (Unless that resource class has a viable serialise/deserialise
system)
Nicholas Clark
Spain should make the Julian/Gregorian jump show up in 1582, not 1752?
I think that this demonstrates how tricky all this mess is.
Nicholas Clark
rsus L[2], because
I have no experience of MMD.
> That said, I'd have no *particular* objection to an MMD implementation that
> used RMS inheritance distance as its metric, provided the dispatch
> performance was not appreciably worse.
Maybe I should cut that paragraph, to avoid re-opening a debate.
Nicholas Clark
mm. I guess this about sums up Perl 5 - ultimately it's defined by the
implementation in the C source. (IIRC first remarked on by Chip))
Nicholas Clark
mbiguous. But maybe I've had too much dealing with
floating point in a previous life.
I'd find it hard defending a language that treated 1.e5 as a method call.
Nicholas Clark
hat hash is only directly
manipulated by functions back up the call frame, so for the duration of the
call would be unchanged.
But this is all arm-wavy, and needs real code to analyse before committing
to it as a strategy.
Nicholas Clark
x27;
syntax error in file /tmp/perl-em47tij at line 1, next 2 tokens "no 5"
Execution of /tmp/perl-em47tij aborted due to compilation errors.
So I think not.
(if anyone wants to compile perl4 on FreeBSD, tell Configure that libc is
/usr/lib/libc.a, rather than .so
After that you'll need to edit a couple of things, but they'll be obvious)
Nicholas Clark
^ that one?
I'd find that confusing in itself.
And that's without considering the change from the C of C and Perl 5.
[contents of this message may settle in transit, particularly if your mail
reader uses a proportional font.]
Nicholas Clark
27;s 1 << -1 in Perl 6?
Nicholas Clark
d context at -e line 1.
o
where by mentioning $& I set the "seen $& somewhere" flag, so $& is
captured, and it's there when the '' eval gets compiled at run time.
IIRC the perl 6 equivalents of $` $& and $' are all lexical rather than
dynamic, so the pain will be far less. (at least in its scope)
Nicholas Clark
guess that they are trying to out-live
Perl 4.
Nicholas Clark
are": In a
> regex, we say /./ to match anything; in a type signature, we use "Any"
> to mean that we don't care what the type is. I don't think we need
> another way to say "don't care". In fact, we could unify things:
>
> rules: // matches
compilers weren't checking close(), so
they were caught out by this too.
So I think that the problem is real, and is worthy of addressing.
I'm not sure of the best approach, or syntax, or defaults.
Nicholas Clark
/www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2005-10/msg00585.html
and how to do something functionally like:
my $foo = DBI(1.38)->new();
my $bar = DBI(1.40)->new();
or whatever to distinguish which you wanted to call a class method on.
Nicholas Clark
re good reasons to change, and better reasons than you state.
Nicholas Clark
quot;, please note that many firms in the real
world are still forcing a base perl version of 5.005_03 or 5.6.1 for
development. Still.
The active perl "community" is not wholly representitive of the global usage
of perl, and would do well to remember this. For example, see
http://use.perl.org/~barbie/journal/27098
Nicholas Clark
g pain, frustration, losses and defections to
other languages that this will cause.
Perl 5 runs everywhere: http://www.cpan.org/ports/index.html
Perl 6 is intended to be an improvement on Perl 5. It would be a shame to
design in restrictions on portability.
Nicholas Clark
ly easier to implement strict perl5 formats as a compatibility
module, using the exiting Perl 5 source and parrot's NCI.
Nicholas Clark
ed to reply to you, I think that I already have
rather too much going on to be able to take advantage of anything in the
near future. So thanks for the offer, but please do thinks in the order that
is most logical to you.
Nicholas Clark
e, but you can never be sure
whether anyone else has another pointer to that same value, which they can
modify at any time.
If nearly all function parameters are PMCs (internally) I don't think that
this is an efficiency problem, as PMCs are always reference semantics, even
when loaded into Parrot's registers.
Nicholas Clark
tmas)
It's like the autovivification bug:
sub stuff {
my $h = shift;
$h->{k}++;
}
my $a;
$a->{$_}++ for @ARGV;
stuff($a);
print "$a->{k}\n";
__END__
Nicholas Clark
tor is how to handle
> a rocket that didn't lift off. Walking there and inspecting it with
> bare hands and *eyes* might be a bad idea!
I think that Larry is referring to slightly larger and more expensive rockets
than regular fireworks: http://www.siam.org/siamnews/general/ariane.htm
(ie real software, not a metaphor)
Nicholas Clark
On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 10:43:23AM +0100, TSa wrote:
> HaloO,
>
> Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >Well, I assume that the do-nothing sub is assigned into the variable, and
> >gets re-evaluated each time the variable is use. Which would mean that
> >you'd
> >get
ll the shallow copy .copy, and the deep copy .clone?
Nicholas Clark
ror messages, and is fairly flexible. Bottom up parsing
> is very flexible, but is very fast.
I infer that you are missing
^not
about there.
More than that I can't comment on the practicality of your scheme, as I don't
have adequate experience in this area.
Nicholas Clark
TECTED];
$#a=5;
check [EMAIL PROTECTED];
@b = @a;
check [EMAIL PROTECTED];
__END__
0: n n n n n n n n n n
0: n n n n n n n n n n
6: n n n n n n n n n n
6: Y Y Y Y Y Y n n n n
Some undefs are more equal than others.
Nicholas Clark
anguages
the whole file level. Which means that it's the same actions to migrate from
Perl 5 to (say) Python as from Perl 5 to Perl 6. And somehow I think that
$Larry has some bias about which language he'd prefer everyone to find it
easiest to migrate to, even if he's too modest to admit it.
Nicholas Clark
ff) require whitespace around them?
> 2) Do we get a more punctuationish unicode equivalent?
Sadly I can only find
1D191;MUSICAL SYMBOL FORTE;So;0;L;N;
It sems that fortissimo doesn't appear to have a single code point, let alone
fff
Nicholas Clark
Feb 23 06:15:20 2006
> @@ -12,9 +12,9 @@ Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Maintainer: Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: 27 Oct 2004
> - Last Modified: 22 Feb 2006
> + Last Modified: 23 Feb 2006
>Number: 12
Would it be better to do that automatically with svn tag expansion?
Nicholas Clark
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 05:05:03AM -0800, Larry Wall wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 02:48:46PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> : Would it be better to do that automatically with svn tag expansion?
>
> Yes, it would. Feel free, I'm not very svn-tag-expansion-aware yet.
Well, th
ial favours, how many methods would it need
to implement all the existing builtins like this?
Nicholas Clark
no Unicode)
> +str native string (finite sequence of native integers, no
> Unicode)
> num native floating point
> complex native complex number
> boolnative boolean
Why does uint autobox, when int doesn't?
(Or num, complex, bool or bit for that matter?)
Nicholas Clark
On Sat, Apr 01, 2006 at 11:32:20AM +1100, Amos Robinson wrote:
> Sorry, I missed the boat.
Everything seems to be moving at Pugs-speed these days :-)
But what you thought was correct.
Nicholas Clark
.> rather than
C<0. ...> because the long dot eats the first dot after the whitespace.
(ie swapped the 3 and 4 dots), given that the long dot eats the first dot,
and 3 eat 1 leaves 2, whereas 4 eat 1 leaves 3.
Nicholas Clark
ded comments }.say;
'{' clearly is a bracketing character. But '/' wasn't?
Can I select # as a bracketing character for my obfuscations? :-)
Nicholas Clark
ho will then apply the LART.
As I figure I'm about to get one, I'll (also) forward mine.
Nicholas Clark
ent in favour. That
space you can't see is a really annoying invisible bug in C source code that's
sometimes hard to track down. Making it not-a-bug seems good.)
Nicholas Clark
On Sun, Apr 30, 2006 at 03:47:54AM +0300, Yuval Kogman wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2006 at 18:12:34 +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 29, 2006 at 05:59:37PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
> > > I get a message like this for every message that I send to this list.
> > &g
say that,
Presumably it's titlecase rather than uppercase.
This doesn't introduce any interesting ambiguities, does it?
IIRC the "fun" stuff involves lowercase and Greek letter sigma following
something, which therefore isn't relevant here.
Nicholas Clark
--
I'm looking for a job: http://www.ccl4.org/~nick/CV.html
es.
I keep thinking that 'sigspace' is the signal that agoraphobic processes least
want to handle. But I guess really that should be written 'SIGSPACE'
Nicholas Clark
--
I'm looking for a job: http://www.ccl4.org/~nick/CV.html
gt; make sense in Perl 6 and the presence of .as() may cover the common cases.
I'm not convinced that sprintf needs an operator. It's not commonly used in
any code I've looked at, which to me suggests that it's not good huffman
coding to use up a terse symbol for it, denying that symbol to something
else.
Nicholas Clark
he current repositories, is there?
Setting a svn:external property in the right place on both Parrot and Pugs
would mean that both could check out the same testsuite, and both could
commit back to it.
Nicholas Clark
ier to audit different committer bit policies
if the repositories were different, instead of simply one being a subtree of
another. That was all.
Nicholas Clark
;
> #{
>if $baz {
>$foo.bar
>}
> }
>
> To uncomment, remove the # before the {.
Or in the same vein
if 0 { q<
....
# > }
To uncomment the real code, add # before the if.
Although it is visually complex.
Nicholas Clark
ows you to unambiguously order any arbitrary set of
> complex numbers.
If I'm reading that correctly then there are values of $A and $B for which
$A > $B and $A < $B are simultaneously true. If so, that doesn't invalidate
your statement about ordering, but there will be different orders depending
on whether you order by < or >
Nicholas Clark
ef, $b) came in around 5.004ish,
but I can't find it in perldelta, and I don't have a version compiled to
test with (or any quick way to compile them, given that pretty much only
AIX is so stable that early perls compile unmodified. Probably someone will
tell me that VMS is also good enough, for 5.002 or later)
Nicholas Clark
quality ~$_ eq $x
> +Any Str string equality ~$_ eq $x
Nicholas Clark
but tracking it down to that line...)
If I write 2/3 I'm thinking maths, not type theory, and "two thirds" is what
I expect.
Nicholas Clark
+infix:
> +
> +and
> +
> +Returns the left argument if the left argument is false, otherwise returns
> +the right argument. In list context forces a false return to mean C<()>.
> +See C<&&> above for high-precedence version.
As these are short circuiting, would it be better to say
"otherwise evaluates and returns the right argument"
(likewise for or and err)
Is it defined that $a + $b evaluates the arguments in any particular order?
Even guaranteeing that either the left or the right gets completely evaluated
first would be better than C :-)
Nicholas Clark
On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 09:23:33AM -0800, Larry Wall wrote:
> Since -0.0 is a possible Num representation, that last one probably works.
> But @array[-0] probably doesn't, since Int probably doesn't represent -0,
Well, it might just be using 1's complement :-)
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 01:01:13PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> +by C and the value matchis represented by C. (C,
"matchis" must be a typo :-)
Nicholas Clark
March,
which suggest that the timing is going to be different this year.
Nicholas Clark
- Forwarded message from LH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -
From: "LH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Summer-Admin-Announce-2006" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: GSoC 2007 is ON!!!
Date:
dn't think that it had been dropped for
Perl 6.
Nicholas Clark
; that can be loaded by those who need them?
I think that we can learn from PHP here. :-)
Nicholas Clark
ken.
I suspect my brain will think of rules like regexps. (But I could be wrong,
and unlike quite a few people on this list, I've not written any yet, so my
opinion might be of little value)
Nicholas Clark
will
always be () in Perl 5)
Nicholas Clark
I infer that now binding, rather than assignment, is the default (if not
the only way) inside a rule. But text describing that alteration wasn't in
this change. When was it? I think I missed something.
Nicholas Clark
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