$perl::core{warnings}
$perl::formats{name}
$perl::deprecated{mod}{foo}
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
ht now; but those result in
a value, which under some circumstances causes a warning issuance.
--
John Porter
> How about contain() or detach() or revalue()?
I might just throw out that the operator "let" does the job in Lisp.
> Also, how about renaming my() to local()? Will this be too confusing?
I feel strongly that "my" and "our" should both be renamed,
as well as "local".
--
John Porter
could be declared
with something like "var global". Extra verbosity required for globals
might be A Good Thing.
--
John Porter
e
> > map2, map3,... builtins? :-)
sub mapf(&;\@\@\@\@\@\@\@\@\@) {
my $cr = shift;
my $m = -1;
for ( @_ ) { $m < $#{$_} and $m = $#{$_} }
map { my $i = $_; $cr->( map { $_->[$i] } @_ ) } 0..$m;
}
I guess my question is, why do these need to be builtins?
There is no limit to the funky algorithms one can come up with;
not everyting should go in the core.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
what the $ is for.
They're not semantically identical. "var" would be a declaration.
And yes, maybe we can dispense with $. (But that's for another RFC.)
--
John Porter
ame name for different
> type of variables to group them:
Imho, this is A Bad Practice. Making it impossible would therefore
be Good, existing-script-breakage not withstanding.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Buddha Buck wrote:
>
> The one concern I would raise about this is that a common use of multi-line
> comments is to dyke out code. As such, it is handy to have the start and
> end markers different, and allow nesting.
It nice to be able to bounce on % in vi, too:
=#{
comment
=
Michael Mathews wrote:
>
> At the risk getting too exotic how about:
>
> #< some
> comments
> EOC
Just introduce a new function which is a bit bucket:
# works in perl5.
sub comment(@) { }
comment q{ comments... };
comment <
n the rule gets longer, it gets harder to teach. And if it's
> harder to teach, it's probably harder to learn.
Here's a simple rule: all symbols must be unique*, regardless of
"type". It's a rule that most other languages have.
*except for hiding, which is orthogonal to this point.
--
John Porter
H.Merijn Brand wrote:
>
> But perl's not any other language. Perl's fun. most other languages are not.
Perl5 is not going away.
Let's make a better language while we have the opportunity.
--
John Porter
rations' which would require all variables to be declared with one of
> the above three before first use (or be package-qualified).
I'm not arguing for anything there, other than the more-or-less
agreed-upon Make "Use Strict" The Default.
--
John Porter
"total:\n" .
qc{ show total } . # replaced with empty string by compiler
$total;
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Peter Scott wrote:
> Filehandles should use C<*> as a type prefix if typeglobs are eliminated.
I missed previous discussion of this (if there was any),
but it's an idea I've already thought about.
It has my vote, fwiw.
--
John Porter
ld be a change in the semantics of scalar
literals in void context, to be silently ignored.
Then you can make a comment any way you want.
--
John Porter
Peter Scott wrote:
> At 02:53 PM 8/2/00 -0400, John Porter wrote:
> >Perhaps a better way would be a change in the semantics of scalar
> >literals in void context, to be silently ignored.
>
> No! It's a major typo/bug-catcher.
Strange, my experience does not confir
Brust, Corwin wrote:
>
> messages.rfc - An RFC to discussing the wisdom of allowing run time error
> and warning messages to be modified at run time
> ...
> I want perl's error (and warning) messages to be specific to each program I
> write.
Isn't this covered by locales?
--
John Porter
your Way the first qc
> would after line 3, at the first "*/;" encountered (bad too).
Of course, like all the other q.// operators, the actual delimiters
are selectable. E.g.
1qc(* # heh, old Pascal style comments!
2added this comment on 08/02/2000
3qc/* this is a nested comment */;
4*);
--
John Porter
Tad McClellan wrote:
>or saveval()# indicates it is about _values_
> tempval()
>or myval() # my _value_, not my(variable)
>or even pushpop() # maybe not :-)
pushval()
--
John Porter
ice, for example.
Also consider the impact of Unicode, which will allow any reasonable
pair of matching Unicode characters. I.e. instead of multi-char,
think wide-char.
> And yet using non-paired
> delimiters doesn't allow commenting out comments.
Since what I think this means is false, you probably mean
something else...
--
John Porter
gin comment
# this is a single line comment
$foo = $a + $b #< here's an in-line comment ># + $c * $d;
=end comment
The pod solution is more or less obvious. Inlinable nestable
comments are something else, and it should look like perl.
qc() -- compiled to nothingness.
--
John Porter
Tom Christiansen wrote:
>
> I still like this solution prototype:
>
> sub comment($) { }
>
> comment <<"END OF FIRST COMMENT";
> asdf
> asdf
> asdf
> asdf
> asdf
> END OF FIRST COMMENT
So do I. Actually, here-docs can be a bit unwieldy, what with the
requirement for the e
Michael Mathews wrote:
>
> > if (0) {
> > }
>
> 1) what if the block contains syntax errors?
> 2) what if the bloack contains unmatched braces?
> 3) this is not easier to type or remember than the currently available
> workarounds.
TIMTOWTDI.
--
John Porter
Tom Christiansen wrote:
> > comment <
> Smack--the lexer cowers before you!
Well, hey, while we're daydreaming... :-)
--
John Porter
on the merit of it's being fun is probably at odds with the goal
of make Perl more widely acceptable.
--
John Porter
[*being facetious. hopefully the other guy who made an argument like
this in seriousness earlier gets the point...]
--
John Porter
Tom Christiansen wrote:
> return 3 after print $string1, $string2 if $cond;
It's true, perl can learn from intercal too:
do come from (10)
--
John Porter
t another way, I see "a/a"!
--
John Porter
Glenn Linderman wrote:
> Stick with characters in the normal character set of the author of the
> script, except for forays into the language of the users of the script.
Good advice for the programmer, perhaps; but it should not be perl's
job to enforce that discipline.
--
John Porter
Tom Christiansen wrote:
> >OTOH, being fun (which I admit it is) is one of the reasons many
> >people don't want to think Perl is a serious language.
So we shouldn't argue for a feature simply because it's fun,
especially when the counterargument includes increas
> ..at least if new newsgroups appear, you get notified about it!
Speaking of which, I believe the plan was to announce new list
creations on perl6-announce; can someone confirm that this is
actually happening?
--
John Porter
er do what she wants.
Anyway, allowing the use of unicode characters in syntactic constructions
(such as in q{} ) does not make it hard to adhere to a coding discipline
which forbids them.
--
John Porter
ine comments might be very useful, and not breaking
anything else, the status could be "Good".
On this particular RFC, you probably want to summarize all the
alternatives suggested, along with the pros and cons of each.
You can ignore the ideas that no one seemed to like (if any).
--
John Porter
e tokens.
This is precisely what I had in mind, except
s/macro facility/the compiler/, since qw() is handled there,
if I'm not mistaken. But a standardized macro facility would
be nice. Although -- wouldn't it have to parse perl? Or else
have a wholly distinct grammar?
--
John Po
Buddha Buck wrote:
> I suggest that the last be
> "Status: postponed" instead of "Status: tabled".
"deferred"
--
John Porter
Michael Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> use typing; # place your fingers on the home row..
>
> my integer $quux = 4;
I believe that would have to be
integer my $quux = 4;
at least in perl5...
--
John Porter
Bart Lateur wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:48:17 -0400, John Porter wrote:
> > OTOH, being fun (which I admit it is) is one of the reasons many
> > people don't want to think Perl is a serious language.
>
> I don't agree. The problem is somewhere else, namely the
Glenn Linderman wrote:
>
> What good are comments if you can't find them when you need them?
There's not thinging to stop you from writing
qc/*** MAGIC HERE */;
Nor from typing
/qc
in vi (if you use vi).
--
John Porter
e
> is included standard.
I don't mind cpp too much; but I'd really like something much
more powerful than cpp. Hmm -- cpp++??
--
John Porter
Gisle Aas wrote:
>
> foo(\&print, "foo");
I think it's critical that built-ins be reference-takeable,
just like user-defineds.
--
John Porter
ay love it, but I'm a programmer and I don't.
I'm both, and I think Perl would be Better for having it.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Steve Simmons wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 12:07:00PM -0400, John Porter wrote:
>
> > I don't mind cpp too much; but I'd really like something much
> > more powerful than cpp. Hmm -- cpp++??
>
> m4.
>
> m4 is better than cpp,
I don't much car
Tom Christiansen wrote:
> > I think it's critical that built-ins be reference-takeable,
> > just like user-defineds.
>
> But they [dw]on't work right.
Um -- why not? Why can't we make then work right in perl6?
--
John Porter
s it matter
that one is gobs more powerful than the other?
--
John Porter
t, because not
many programmers want to bother with the extra two keystrokes!
Or perhaps more the point, -P is essentially never used in any of
the canonical code examples, books, etc.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
links now (or does it?) doesn't mean
it won't in the future.
--
John Porter
Uri Guttman wrote:
> i think damian's influence on perl6
> is our real triple top secret weapon.
This realization has hit me on the head really hard.
My prediction is that Perl6 will have to be dual-credited.
--
John Porter
last ~= break
next ~= continue (not in switch, since it's not a loop)
Hey, doesn't while need an otherwise?
while ( foo ) {
}
otherwise {
# do this if the while predicate was never true.
}
--
John Porter
We're here to work on perl6. Let's stay focused.
--
John Porter
namely, that
$x < $y evaluates to false if $x >= $y, and evaluates to
"$y (but true)" if $x < $y. This allows the operators to be
nested, i.e. $x < $y < $z would be ( $x < $y ) < $z, which
performs the $y < $z comparison iff $x < $y.
But this is all off the top of my head; the Icon references
should be consulted on this.
--
John Porter
--
John Porter
> STDIN, STDOUT, and STDERR should follow suit and be renamed
> $STDIN, $STDOUT, and $STDERR.
$TDIN, $TDOUT, $TDERR
--
John Porter
with appropriate ramifications/extensions, so that ppl can write
switch-like constructs however they want.
--
John Porter
le to quickly distinguish the
> comments using my eyeballs and brain, without the need to involve my
> fingers and editor
Bogus arguments both, at least wrt #<...># vs qc<...>.
Same number of characters overhead, same LACK of obviosity to the eyeball.
--
John Porter
Nick Ing-Simmons wrote:
> John Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> my integer $quux = 4;
> >
> >I believe that would have to be
> >
> > integer my $quux = 4;
> >
> >at least in perl5...
>
> Well Larry has been using
>
special^Wlocalized variables are
scoped in time, not space, so:
now $/ = "\n";
--
John Porter
you get modification *regardless* of
whether you assign something or not.
--
John Porter
be overloaded yet again?
$root->traverse({$sum += __});
That has mnemonic value, since it looks kinda like an anonymous sub...
--
John Porter
Jeremy Howard wrote:
> Yes, I change my mind . I like the '^' prefix
> too. The difficulty of reading __ would be a pain.
But what happens here?
/^__foo/
Or here?
/^{__}foo/
Is the latter sufficiently unambiguous?
--
John Porter
t '_' is a valid identifier
character. '__' is already a valid package name, or sub name, for examples.
--
John Porter
Has anyone suggested '*'? Since its use for typeglobs is (repsumably)
going away, it's available (right?).
It the "wildcard" mnemonic value is consistent with "placeholder".
--
John Porter
Jeremy Howard wrote:
> Yes, they're not identical. What I mean of course is:
> (..-1) == reverse(map -__ (1..));
WHAT? So the semantics of .. are magically different in the context
of (..$n) so as to produce numbers in descending order?
I don't think so.
--
John Porter
ers if x > 0.1);
my $x = shift;
# ...
}
Please check out RFC 5 and its discussions in the archive.
--
John Porter
> Compilation: Remove requirement for final true value in require'd and do'ed files
Do not. I use this feature.
--
John Porter
Nathan Torkington wrote:
> John Porter writes:
> >> Compilation: Remove requirement for final true value in require'd and
> >> do'ed files
> >
> > Do not. I use this feature.
>
> Is there any reason you couldn't use "die" instea
Nathan Torkington wrote:
> John Porter writes:
> > Throw an exception in order to return a (0|'')-but-true value?
>
> If you want to indicate that there was an error in the code, why not
> die()? What am I missing?
I'm talking about the case where the requir
> > VAX is either big or little. I can't remember which off the top
> > of my head.
Right, VAX is strictly little-endian.
I.e. the address of a *word is the address of its least significant byte.
(That's little-endian, isn't it?)
--
John Porter
>> language.
>
> ROTFL.
But it's true.
The semantics of == vs eq is currently very well defined and distinct.
The proposal muddies the distinctions.
The thing that allows you to LOL is precisely the thing which should
motivate us to not reduce Perl's already low ortho
t dissent -- before the RFC
is even issued!
--
John Porter
Hildo Biersma wrote:
> Having said that, it doesn't need to live in the core - and even today
> it should be relatively easy to write an XS module for this.
It should no more NOT live in the core than, say, scalar() (or whatever
scalar() might become in 6).
--
John Porter
dal might tell you in day 1
of his perl course.
--
John Porter
s the result of the
Foo->import('bar');
which implicitly occurs?
--
John Porter
rl thinks it's the first
> one.
That's sort of a special case. What happens with multiple END blocks?
perl must compile them and stash them in the END symbol, chained somehow.
--
John Porter
f you wanted to make that parsable, pretend that BEGIN and END are
> the names of functions with prototype (&) which register callbacks.
I agree ... except that, in perl5 at least, you'd need a terminating
semicolon if that analogy were 100% accurate.
--
John Porter
27;re not in a string context
> print context 'MyClass', $val; # we're not in a string context
We already have scalar(). We should also have string(), void(), etc.
for the "intrinsic" contexts.
--
John Porter
Ariel Scolnicov wrote:
>
> I rarely use a `now' scope,
Well, 'now' is a declaration; the scope is "temporal", aka "dynamic".
> Variable declaration is good (except for some trivial programs)!
I agree 1000%!
--
John Porter
.
I, for example, want a New, Better language, and I don't care if
all my scripts need rewriting. (I predict that that will happen
anyway.) My old stuff will continue to work with perl5.
--
John Porter
Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
>
> And what about user-defined contexts? (my Dog $spot = some_func();)
> I think a context coercion operator would do just fine.
Oh, I agree entirely! But the intrinsic contexts should have concise
operators (e.g. scalar()).
--
John Porter
$r = bless {}, 'Foo';
$s = "$r";
ref($s); # True.
$s->bar; # call method of Foo.
I guess that means the deref operator would have be implicitly overloaded
for strings...
--
John Porter
chomp;
$x{ $_ . $y };
}
}
--
John Porter
Dan Sugalski wrote:
> > unless you think we should require arrays to be passed by reference.
>
> It's an op. Arrays can be passed in any way we want.
But as I already pointed out, we don't want to pass just arrays,
we need to be able to pass any LIST.
--
John Porter
( .. -1 ) {
$i++;
last if $i > 2;
print
}
If the answer is (as I suspect), "This never prints anything; it goes
into an infinite loop just trying to generate the first number", then
the proposal is absurd and should be scrapped.
--
John Porter
ibe, and then it turns out that there are cases where I needed the
> chomp, and I forgot to add a newline.
Strawman. There are times I forgot to increment the count of frobnitzes,
and had to go edit the code.
--
John Porter
Ted Ashton wrote:
> John Porter:
> >
> > What would be the output of the following program:
> >
> > $\ = "\n";
> > $i = 0;
> > for ( .. -1 ) {
> > $i++;
> > last if $i > 2;
> >
dit-string, string-to-ref sequence allows?
Um, no... )-:
--
John Porter
elevant timings of perl5 code snipped]
--
John Porter
Michael Mathews wrote:
>
> This ... underlines why POD is not a good way to comment code.
> ...
> This RFC would seem to address the issue quite neatly.
So, are you saying that if this RFC is implemented, POD would be
an good way to comment code?
--
John Porter
e problem: how to get executable code into a commenmt,
> rather than how to get executable code out of the program
That's a very astute observation; and it's why the solutions may
reasonably be independent.
--
John Porter
really is. It does not attempt to address the in-line
comments issue -- and would fail if it did try, because that is a
issue with the whole of POD, even in the absence of RFC 79.
--
John Porter
27;m on it -- perhaps the RFC should be phrased in terms of LP,
as in: "Perl On-line Documentation (:-) should more fully support LP".
--
John Porter
The subroutine is defined as
=for perl-code pod
sub foo($\@%)
{
#...
}
The latter type:
print
=for perl-string pod
Help is on the way.
;
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
>
> Chomp removes one or more line separators from the end.
It does? You're using a different version of Perl than I am.
--
John Porter
Uri Guttman wrote:
> >>>>> "JP" == John Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> JP> Maybe what's needed is two distinct perl pod processor types, one
> JP> which passes on the text literally to the compiler, and one which
> JP>
Johan Vromans wrote:
>
> Be reminded that Perl++ will increment Perl, but return the _current_
> value.
Heh, at least we're not
python = python + 1
--
John Porter
uld catch lists of types:
try {
}
catch Exception::Thingy, Exception::Whingy
with {
--
John Porter
illy to use "otherwise" there.
You could make it so "catch" takes a list of 0 or more exception
class names.
--
John Porter
t generated in
the opposite order. (..-1) should generate -INF first, but obviously
it can't do that. (..$n) is an impossible construct, and should be
a fatal error -- presuming it even gets past the lexer...
--
John Porter
erl doesn't, and personally I think
it's a better paradigm.
If you really want to rethrow unhandled exceptions, you can always
catch { die }
--
John Porter
}
catch {
handle_error_assuming_invariants_restored();
}
--
John Porter
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:34:00AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> > I support the idea of renaming the block eval as die, and leaving eval
Crimonentlies! I meant "try", of course. :-/ Freudian slip?
--
John Porter
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