the community) decides should be it.
Given the expected dynamic loading capablity there should be no reason
that a perl5 compatibility library would be able to handle all of the
deprecated features.
--
Chaim FrenkelNonlinear Knowledge, Inc.
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e old guard? Larry has
a major balancing act to do. Clean up the dirty laundry but still leave
the language for those useful dirty deeds.
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vailable
for those that prefer the C interface.
Architecture Layers that aren't native could be ported so that useful
modules could be easily used (for some value of easily).
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the meaning of a list in
a scalar context, or ...
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Magic words.
Iterators
Reduce (e.g. $x = reduce { sum } @list;
Case/Switch
Make some of the unaddressable into first class objects.
FILEHANDLE
DIRHANDLE
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Chaim FrenkelNonlinear Knowledge, Inc
>>>>> "CF" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>>>> "TA" == Ted Ashton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
TA> In general, they do what you want, unless you want consistency.
CF> Randal, Tom, et. al.
CF> How locked in to
And how about
continuations, generators and co-routines.
>>>>> "CF" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
CF> Magic words.
CF> Iterators
CF> Reduce (e.g. $x = reduce { sum } @list;
CF> Case/Switch
CF> M
>>>>> "PC" == Piers Cawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
PC> Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> And how about
>>
>> continuations, generators and co-routines.
PC> Now those'd be nice if they could be added without sl
I want them as first class objects/verbs. 'for', 'each', 'values',
etc. should know how to do handle these objects.
I should be able to pass any operator through reduce.
>>>>> "PC" == Piers Cawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>>>> "CF" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
CF> (Kirrily, this one is for the record.)
CF> I'd also like to add, redo, next, last escaping a subroutine.
Make that _NOT_ escaping a subroutine.
map { ...; last; ...} @foo
should si
't you go touching the meaning of a list in a scalar context.
PC> That's bloody useful that is.
I don't find this meaningful:
sub foo() { return (1,7) }
$x = &foo();# $x == 7;
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Chaim FrenkelNonlinear Knowledg
at you *will* do. At the
LW> moment, I'm not only trying to follow along here; I'm also reading all
LW> the books on computer languaes I can get my hands on--not just to look
LW> for ideas to steal, but also to remind myself of the mindset Perl was
LW> designed to escape.
S
ls down to having the capability right there, without having to
go through hurdles to make it available.
I wouldn't mind, if formats were made even easier. If they could handle
variable width fonts. Could generate postscript/html/whatever output.
But I
;t like the fact that the runtime scalar context is having
a compile time semantic effect.
It's the overloading of the ',' operator.
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dy
PC> annoying.
Well what about->{lots}->[of]->{nested}->[punctuation].
Periods are a bit less noisy. But number of characters is not enough
reason to change it.
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A nice anonymous place to store a value and have
it restored.
Hmm, what about restricting it to only scalar values? or perhaps, simply
restricting it from the innards of aggregate objects?
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I assume 'core perl engine' i.e. /usr/bin/perl or perl.exe
NI> they will of course be provided in perl6.tar.gz
NI> We need a quick glossary:
NI> perl core:
NI> perl.exe + perl.dll or .../bin/perl + libperl.so
NI> perl distribution
NI> anything fro
post { # object post conditions go here }
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onditional catch of return, I suppose. Perhaps
DS> allowing continue on the outer sub block...
Because the pre, post, invariants should only be executed, if and only
if, the user requests it.
Further, they are _not_ part of the sub, they are an external contract
b
tructs. In my case, I want it to print to the default
BCW> filehandle, (which is also implicit, I might add.)
No.
(Walks away shaking head, in wonder and amazement.)
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re coming out of the gate. What goes in
is in for the long haul.
If it is decided (and I hope not) that localtime and its kin are verboten,
it should not exists _at all_ in Perl6 and any existance at all would be
only as a support module for Perl5 backward compatiblity.
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Chaim Frenkel
ms begin with
NT> 20 lines of `load this module, load that module, load the other
NT> module'). Your criteria for moving to a module can't simply be
NT> whether it's a system call or not, you must use something that takes
NT> into account the hindrance and the payoff.
--
ce you need to track which keys are localized,
DS> but that's about it)
{Was,is}n't there a bug:
@arr = 1..50;
{
local $arr[25] = 30;
pop(@arr);
}
What is in 25..30?
--
Chaim Frenkel
>>>>> "GB" == Graham Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
GB> On Tue, Aug 01, 2000 at 07:41:59PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> >>>>> "Chaim" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
Chaim> It's the
>>>>> "RLS" == Randal L Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>>>> "Chaim" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Chaim> It's the overloading of the ',' operator.
RLS> Just like the overloading of the @A
>>>>> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> At 10:42 PM 8/1/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> We may need that all variables are by default lexical.
>>
>> Without the explicit declaration of cross-thread visible variables
ot;.
Graham> I am not refering to context, but what the user types. If an author
Graham> does not document the two subs above correctly as returning a list and an array
Graham> then a user may get surprised.
RLS> Yes, but the first part is getting the naming right. You don't
RLS> "return an array". :)
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nguage requires this distinction between returning a list
vs. returning an array?
The only one that I can come up with is flattening through a sub call.
That can be up for grabs, or @_ treats the incoming as flattened ala
the '<>', while named arguments could see the original arrays.
R".
RLS> Yeah, I could use a do-block on either side, but then I might
RLS> as well go to a full while statement.
RLS>warn("too much information"), return 3 if $some_condition;
RLS> Very handy.
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Chaim FrenkelNonlinear Kn
d unless you say they are.
Err, I understood his comment to claim that there would be no shared no
variables.
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it is a question of speed, would
making it optional still have it work?)
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e redrafted RFC back to perl6-language
s> Ask, can you please set this up?
s> When this is set up, can all multiline comments discussion please go
s> there instead of here :)
s> Thanks,
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rs me.
I'll slink off now.
>>>>> "BCW" == Bryan C Warnock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
BCW> On Wed, 02 Aug 2000, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> (Walks away shaking head, in wonder and amazement.)
BCW> Hey, it took me two weeks to hack the parser into doing
that would catch the return value?
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gt; unreasonable, and I can think of a few ways to do it, but they need to be
DS> designed in *now*, not later.
Just remember, Larry's dislike of making untainting easy.
I'd rather not have multiple characters. A option hash or even a longer
namespace
n syntax, but let's not add the entirety of LISP and ML to the core.
PRL> The CS types may love it, but I'm a programmer and I don't.
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the parser
DS> needs to keep source around, possibly snapshot its current state and then
DS> do an on-the-fly rework of the input buffers. (Maybe. Depends on what this
DS> does)
DS> The cleverer the preprocessor, the more work the lexer/parser needs to do.
DS> Which is dandy but,
the user's view of the world.
How -internals-* takes care of the dirty details, is a seperate issue.
I.e. What, not how.
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t; and maybe others. Also, as a first-class type, users should be able
AS> to use all iterator facilities.
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es-as-objects); it just requires it be optional.
PS> This is a (not *the*) key to the acceptance of Perl for large projects in
PS> large institutions. You don't have to work for one or like the way they go
PS> about things, but if we can give them some
tuck() # Now I lay me down to sleep
JSD>hide() # I kinda like this one :-)
JSD>shelve()# probably too loaded
JSD>stow() # Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale ...
JSD>bury() # Oh my god! They've killed Kenny!
, 3 ]) ...
DC>if ( grep $x==$_, (1,2,3) ) ...
DC> Be nice if it would short-circuit in a boolean context though!
DC> Damian
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]> writes:
JH> I think we need a general way of short-circuiting out of a grep
JH> (and other list iterating funcs, if it makes sense...) We may
JH> need both success and failure short-circuits? It's a pity 'last'
JH> already has semantics there, not to mention
my eyes, minor extensions to what perl
is.
In my eyes, turning on strict by default, or some of the other fundemental
operational changes are against the feel of perl. Not these additional
operations.
Anyway, keep in your hand.
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Chaim Frenkel
use source filters *are* that macro system. Why would we invent
JSD> yet another language within a language when we can use a language we
JSD> already know--Perl. We just need to make source filters part of the
JSD> language rather than a module (Perl 5 is already almost there).
--
.) Wouldn't it be a major departure from PERL as PERL.
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use of file globbing with angle brackets. Emit a
s> warning when this behaviour is used."
I think the point is to remove all deprecations. So adding a few seems
to be counter-productive. I think what is in the language on day 1
should be there for the long hau
own chair and charter
s> independently of -flow.
s> I admit this isn't really very different in practical terms, but at
s> least it means that sublists have some consistentcy in their charters
s> and timelines, and that they all report back to the same place
s> (-
s And Keys
MD> I think if there's one thing we have learned (or should have leanred)
MD> from Perl 5, it's that this sort of global state variable is a
MD> terrible idea regardless of what its name is.
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all non-core items, hard
coded into the language or are they able to be recognized as an already
installed module.
This would help avoid the proliferation of uses. And let perl find the
right use. The only need for use would then be to customize the behavior.
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Chaim Frenkel
DS> Taint checking is disabled in a no taint block. Whether we still set the
DS> taint status on a scalar could depend on the -T switch, so data would still
DS> be tainted in a no taint block.
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t; I've got an RFC started on this.
DS> The list would presumably be added to occasionally when a module is installed
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PRL> Coroutines are identified by a prefixed vertical bar. To invoke a
PRL> coroutine, you write data to or read data from it.
PRL>$y = <|foo>;
PRL>print |$x "hello, world\n";
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code, or the XS
replacement code.
We might be able to add a hint hook to the module (or the vtbl) that
would help optimization and the compiler.
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ist context, return only the two values requested in order
SS> ($mode,$nlink) = stat($filename,\('mode','nlink'));
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bstring, 0, 2; # second occurrence
PRL> $first = index $string, $substring, 0, 3; # third occurrence
PRL> If omitted, this fourth parameter would default to 1, thus preversing
PRL> the current behaviour.
PRL> The C function would be unnecessary, being replaced by:
PRL>
ric comparison
PRL> operator can be converted to a number, rather than both being converted
PRL> to zero, the two operands should be compared using the equivalent
PRL> stringwise comparison operator.
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PRL>3) C would then act as C and C would
PRL> act as C
I'll take door #3, Jonathan.
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son is that
it coerces the two sides into being numbers. This has effects (not nice
ones) on future usages of the value. (Think '&' and '|'.)
Are you proposing that usage of numeric comparisons _will not_ change
the 'type' of
nd which
BL> would print them from left to right anyway. But a silly patch that
BL> remedies the symptoms while ignoring the underlying false assumptions,
BL> does not seem right.
BL> What if you encounter a display device that correctly displays Hebrew
BL> text from right to left?
BL&g
er RFC
JH> suggests reserving '*' for reserved perl identifiers.
JH> - *: Next best, if not used to signify perl reserved identifiers
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>println $textvar;
EM> instead of
EM>print "$textvar\n";
EM> Ever so much easier to read and write, prints the arg and appends \n.
EM> Thank-You for consideration, great ideas I'm seeing here!
--
Chaim Frenkel
module imports
PRL> The option to load modules thus:
PRL> use Foo::* [The '*' character isn't very pleasant, any sugestions??]
PRL> or
PRL> use Foo::Bar::* [An alternate Foo::, has been sugested]
PRL> etc
--
Chaim Frenkel
ed. If, for
DS> example, you had:
DS>my ($foo, $bar);
DS>my ($here, $there) : Place;
DS>$foo = $bar;
DS>$here = $there;
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ms.
Personal counter example. Many times, I take multiple inputs and tee
them off to multiple files.
Consider taking a web logfile and isolating the entries based upon
the owners of the pages.
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er slow, and I don't think it ought to be core.
DS> However...
DS> If you feel the need, it should be possible to let you do this, or at
DS> least a part of it for one or three ops, with a module. I think it might
DS> be better to wait until the plain way's
a call to C,
PRL> the enclosing C immediately returns the last reduction value
PRL> (i.e. C on the first reduction call, $_[0] otherwise)
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>>>>> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> At 01:33 PM 8/9/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> I don't think it will be a half million objects.
>>
>> Let's take stat (and all the other long list returns). The u
== a number
string ( func ) == a string
array ( func )
hash ( func )
Though that would take away some keywords.
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to be intended for external POD viewers, assertions to the contrary
LW> notwithstanding.
LW> Seems like all we're discussing now is how much those independent
LW> documents should be independent (where the code itself is considered
LW> one of the documents).
--
Chaim Fr
ving the user code it, becomes
{ defined $_[0] && defined $_[1] ? $_[0] + $_[1]
: defined $[0] ? $_[0] : $_[1] }
Pretty ugly.
And for the N case, it gets even uglier. So reduce should be able
to supply the next N-1 defined() values.
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Chaim Frenkel
ich wasn't
DS> created on the use, but then I'd probably just say "you get your version of
DS> C. Nyah!")
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def would turn the
results to undef.
While we are here, can reduce itself generate an average? I.e. something
cuter than:
$avg = reduce { $_[0] + $_[1] } @numbers / @numbers;
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$token = Perl::Lexer($TDIN)->next_token
or
$line = <$TDIN>;
$line = s/frobitz/knob/g;
$token = Perl::Lexer->push($line);
We can get real dirty here.
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it be available to both? (and of course the opposite
eval{}, to make it evaluate the arguments immediately.)
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DC> sub enervate (?$) : lvalue { $_[0] }
DC> And then:
DC> non_lazy( a(), enervate(b()), c() );
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; instead of "otherwise",
JP> because sometimes you'll do this:
JP> try {
JP> # fragile code
JP> }
JP> catch {
JP> # handle other exceptions
JP> };
JP> And it would look silly to use "otherwise" there.
ontext (for things to make sense).
Why? reduce should be able to reduce a set of matrices to a matrix. Or
actually any aggregate (plural whatzit).
I think this is too limiting.
Depending upon the context reduce should return undef, an empty list,
or other empty plural whatzit.
--
Chaim
case __->isa('IO') { ... }
GB> case __->isa('Socket') { ... }
GB> else { ... }
GB> }
GB> }
GB> continue {
GB> # code always executed (ie finally)
GB> }
GB> And th
plicitly tucks it into a variable
BT> whose name starts with main::. E.g. let Net/FTP.pm post its debug
BT> flag into $main::Net::FTP::Debug, and the list of exception classes
BT> requested of Fatal.pm could be posted into @main::Fatal.
--
Chaim Fre
>>>>> "GB" == Graham Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
GB> On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:34:50PM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> Nice.
>>
>> The continue clause, I assume would re-raise an uncaught exception.
>> But, a big but. How does th
it does now.
Hmm, would it be too nasty for perl to recognize that all foo's have the
same prototype? (Consider the singular foo case.)
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rom (for + and *, you'll usually
AS> pick an appropriate identity element). By writing
AS> @sum = reduce __+__ 0, @numbers
AS> you deal elegantly with both cases.
AS> NOTE: I find this trick very elegant. I wish it were my trick,
AS> instead of Damian's...
troduce
PRL> two new built-ins -- C and C -- to access the components of a pair.
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ld be used on a pair reference:
>>
>> print key $array[0];# or perhaps: print keys $array[0];
JE> ^^^ Makes sense Mismatch ^ ^
>> print value $array[0]; # or perhaps: print value $array[0];
JE>
tions welcome.
PS> I made a start in RFC 80.
Have you looked at the current scheme used by lexical warnings?
Hmm, I thought I saw another exception RFC pass by. . Yup,
RFC 88, Tony Olekshy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Could you two folks get together and hash this out.
(I think Graham's
nguages, as you have done above. I just found the
PS> try/throw/catch syntax really appealing, and it was a bonus that
PS> it would be instantly familiar to the C++/Java crowd.
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.4567"
AS>(_not_ 123.4567) represents error 4567. People will still try
AS>stupid floating-point math tricks to get at the suberror code, but
AS>at least we'll know they didn't read the bit in the documentation
AS>where it will specifically warn _not_ to
ecify types and attributes within a sub
JH> prototype? It would be nice to guarantee that subs don't mutate particular
JH> parameters, that certain data will not be aliased, etc, so that appropriate
JH> optimisations can be done.
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>>>>> "GB" == Graham Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
GB> On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 07:22:21PM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> Okay, then for
>>
>> reduce &avg $identity, @list
>>
>> What should $identity be?
GB> I would like
er else was going
PC> on and restore any invariants.
Err, how does one differentiate between a 'good' entry and a 'bad' entry.
PC> Note too that we don't need to do any case based magic, we can and
PC> should use polymorphism for that.
Why? Just because?
--
Cha
>>>>> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> At 10:58 AM 8/11/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> Someone on this list (TomC?) has supplied a major diatribe against const.
DS> Maybe, but I don't see what's wrong with:
DS> m
ven't used OO in anger. But for me polymorphism is action-at-distance
of the worst stripe.
Its the cheap and dirty way of doing OO. Let the object determine the
calling convention for the method. I see very little reason to have
two methods with different signatures.
--
Chaim Frenkel
RL> http://dev.perl.org/rfc/
PRL> =head1 TITLE
PRL> Rename @ARGV to @ARGS
PRL> =head1 VERSION
PRL>Maintainer: Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
PRL>Date: 11 Aug 2000
PRL>Version: 1
PRL>Status: Developing
PRL>Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> "NW" == Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
NW> Also, how about just $@->id? Shorter and I would argue the "unique_" is
NW> really redundant (id's are usually unique, hence the name
NW> "identifiers").
Not rea
> including:
PRL>1. The ability to do date arithmetic with simple math ops
PRL>2. It can be used to easily derive many other sources,
PRL> including UTC and local time
PRL>3. It is platform and even computer-independent
--
Chaim Frenkel
, isn't "reshape" the name of the APL operation?
Hmm, reshape is its own inverse.
I'll go for that as the name of the operation.
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d also to STDOUT?
select(OTHERFH);
print "This goest to OTHERFH\n";
print STDOOUT "This went to STDOUT\n";
STDOUT is _not_ the default filehandle. It is the currently selected
filehandle when perl starts.
--
Chaim Frenkel
zer for the corresponding per-filehandle value.
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to the UNIX
PRL> epoch, while others use their own epochs (MacPerl uses 1904, for
PRL> example).
PRL> All versions of Perl on all platforms should maintain time both
PRL> internally and externally as seconds since the UNIX epoch (00:00:00 01
PRL> Jan 1970 UTC).
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