Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whi
spered:
| This is off-topic for perl6.
Objection, your honor! This is a logical extention of part of the
discussion. If we're discussing what is wrong with perl5 to make perl6
better differentiating between philoso
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Jarkko Hietaniemi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered
:
| Ummm, I must have missed the "have to know Unicode, have to to know OO,
| have to know references" part in the Apoc2. Could you show it to me?
Atoms- Unicode. If everything is Unicode, you're going to hav
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Trond Michelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
| You don't need to know any of the modules in CPAN to use perl, but once
| you learn how to use search.cpan.org, your productivity will most
| probably increase dramatically. Just like knowing how to use the
|
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whi
spered:
| I'm trying to understand what people fear, and why they fear it, so
| that I know how to respond. Ridiculing, inflaming, or exaggerating
| those fears don't make them go away.
Dan may be correct that a lot
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispere
d:
| All Perl programmers, including lone ones, really should be using CPAN as
| much as they can, which means that the parts of the language needed to use
| CPAN modules are part of the understanding you need.
This
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "David Grove" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m> whispered:
| > I think what Stephen is saying (and he's not the only one) is that
| > the bare minimum amount of Perl you *must* know to be productive
| > is increasing. Either that, or we're giving the impression that
|
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| Simon Cozens writes:
| : On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:42:07PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
| : > : while ($STDIN) { ... }
| : > I'm wondering what this will do?
| : >$thingy = $STDIN;
| : > This seems to have t
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whi
spered:
| Here's a program I use to count messages in my mailfile:
This is quite a simple little script. The majority of the changes that are
being talked about won't ever show up in this. It'd be nice if you could
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| Peter Scott writes:
| : So, I wonder aloud, do we want to signify that degree of change with a more
>
| : dramatic change in the name?
|
| I'm inclined to think that people will be more likely to migrate if
| the
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Bart Lateur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
| I'm really beginning to like
|
| $string3 = $string1 _ $string2;
|
| The underscore indeed "connects" the two strings.
This still breaks because _ is a valid word character. Again, we have to
make the la
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "Brent Dax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wh
ispered:
| $a.$b;
| a.$b;
|
| Unless we decide that objects can contain scalars
| and to access them you must prefix their name with $, the middle pair can't
| be object calls, so they're concat.
How about symbolic refs to
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whisper
ed:
| Michael G Schwern wrote:
| >
| > Oh, not to seed the clouds or anything, but what about "+=" and ".="?
| > Any proposal will have to deal with those.
|
| Under what I originally posted:
|
|$a += "$b";#
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Garrett Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> w
hispered:
| cmp ~<=>
| .= ~+=
| ~=+ (concat after)
| =~ =~
| !~ !~
It's not bad enough that we're getting a proliferation of trigraph
operators, now you w
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Casey West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispere
d:
| I would consider thinking about the bigger problem of:
|
| $string = foo() [something here] bar();
In either case, quoting the operands isn't going to work.
$string = "foo()" + "bar()";
And, my one argument sti
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whisper
ed:
| Under this proposal, string concatenation would be acheived by the
| *combination* of "" and +. So, in Perl 5 you would have something like
| this:
|
|$string3 = $string1 . $string2;
|
| In Perl 6, you woul
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| I'm thinking concat will be ~. Furthermore, I'm thinking unary ~ will
| be stringify, and unary ^ will be bit complement, on the theory that
| bit complement is like xoring with 0x. And unary + will be a
|
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Graham Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| > What's wrong with something like:
| >
| >$foo = $a :+ $b;
|
| I was thinking along those lines too.
Maybe this is a crazy (or stupid) idea, but why couldn't we use the $, @,
and % characters?
@foo =
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Damien Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered
:
| ISO/ANSI C reserves identifiers beginning with a _. I recommend using
| "perl_" and "perl__" if you want to distinguish internal-only functions
| from public ones.
I'd be worried that "_" and "__" are too hard t
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "NeonEdge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whisper
ed:
| This is probably way too late, but does this make any sense: could p6 allow
| (for the first few versions anyway) a "require <6;" directive?
Do you understand how the current "require #;" works? It already pretty
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Richard Foley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| [EMAIL PROTECTED]#
|
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] # bleeding edge?
|
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] # not very exciting...
|
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] # hmmm?
People, please trim your
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and John Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered
:
| Yep; the perl manpage has said, since time immemorial, that
| the fact that -w was not on by default is a BUG.
I don't know that I would say time immemorial. It wasn't in the man for
4.036. I can only find man
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Alan Burlison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|
| PIT - Perl Intergration Testers
|
| Alan Burlison
Not to pick on Alan, God knows he's been doing us all a real favor lately
with the leaktest stuff. But can we please stop crossposting
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "Branden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whisp
ered:
| For the list managers: Could we have a list apart from -language, so that we
| don't bother all with this `par'-issue ??? Please? Perhaps a list that
| includes the issue on directory structure, and other issues re
Is this (these) thread(s) to the point where it is worth spinning off a new
sublist? If a couple of the main contributors (Dan, Simon, Branden, etc)
say yes, can we get perl6-internals-gc created?
-spp
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "raptor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| ok,
|
| "I've done it in one row, why you want it to fit in 80 columns ?!" (or
| something like that can't remember well)
"You want it in one line? Does it have to fit in 80 columns? :-)"
-lwall
-spp
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and [EMAIL PROTECTED] whispered:
| To make a simple loop, Perl offers you: for, foreach, while, until,
| {redo}, map, grep, //g, goto and recursion. Which 9 of them do you
| propose to drop from the language so Perl causes less confusion?
|
| There Is More Than
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whisper
ed:
| But the big problem is that there's a lot of stuff that's based off of
| time() right now, like stat(), lstat(), etc, etc. When you think of the
| cascading effects of changing Perl's timekeeping it gets really,
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Jarkko Hietaniemi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered
:
| I guess it's part of the can of sub-second worms: if we do sleep(),
| people will ask why don't we do time() and alarm(), too. sleep() and
| alarm() we could get away with more easily, but changing time() t
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispere
d:
| On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:14:25PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
| > Not in the p5p sense, at least. Regardless of the levels of disapproval,
| > generally the disapproval was voiced with at least some courtesy. p5
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Mark-Jason Dominus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
| I don't understand what this discussion has to do with this mailing
| list, and I don't understand what your point is. tr/// has already
This discussion doesn't have anything to do with this list. They w
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Bart Lateur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
| Speedwise, it is. You don't have to do any tests on the bytes. All you
| have to do is use the ord of the character (the byte value) as an offset
| in a table, and replace what you had with what you find in the ta
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Tom Christiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m> whispered:
| >Even if I only do something like tr/a/A/?
| >And, it is going to get worse for UTF8/UTF16?
|
| Use the Source.
If we all always used the source, we wouldn't need books and trainers.
Where would you and
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Tom Christiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m> whispered:
| >Personally, I would say that q/.../ and friends were a bad idea.
|
| That's one opinion. As Piers points out, it's hardly universal.
| Go read what I just wrote Uri.
"Personally" generally denotes opin
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Mark-Jason Dominus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
| > > The way tr/// works is that a 256-byte table is constructed at compile
| > > time that say for each input character what output character is
| >
| > Speaking of which, what's going to happen when there
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Mark-Jason Dominus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
|
| > Would there be any interest in adding these two ideas to this RFC:
| >
| > 1) tr is not regex function, so it should be regularized to
| >
| >tr(SEARCH, REPLACE, MOD, STR)
|
| MOD should be last
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Tom Christiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m> whispered:
| >The // tend to confuse people and make them expect tr to operate as a
| >regular expression.
|
| So what? q/.../ is not a "regex function" either. These are all
| pick-you-own-quotes function. This ma
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wh
ispered:
| On Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 08:29:21PM -, Perl6 RFC Librarian wrote:
| > The C and C commands are legacy commands which have been
| > deprecated for at least 5 years. They should be removed from the languag
Would there be any interest in adding these two ideas to this RFC:
1) tr is not regex function, so it should be regularized to
tr(SEARCH, REPLACE, MOD, STR)
The // tend to confuse people and make them expect tr to operate as a
regular expression.
2) Remove y/// as a command.
-spp
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Mark-Jason Dominus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whis
pered:
|
| RFC135: Require explicit m on matches, even with ?? and // as delimiters.
|
| RFC138: Eliminate =~ operator.
|
| RFC164: Replace =~, !~, m//, and s/// with match() and subst()
|
| I would like to see
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Tom Christiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m> whispered:
| Very well, then: I'll save it for an after-the-fact I-TOLD-YOU-SO,
| which, believe it or not, is truly *not* a pleasant thing to be
| able to say.
Tom, we appreciate your constructive comments and your hel
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nick Ing-Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| I think this is inappropriate for sin/cos/tan et. al. and possibly even
| sockets (although Win32 sockets are weird enough that it would be worthwhile)
|
| But for getpw* or shm/queue/msg or other may-not-b
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "Ed Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispe
red:
| So we establish a var $something=n where n is the array origin.
You mean something like $[, which we've had for many, many years. And
which for many, many years we've discouraged the use of?
$[ The i
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Steve Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| Depends on your definition of "module". Many people seem to be assuming
| "module" eq "shared library".
Yes, exactly. I use module as a generic term for something other than the
main perl binary itself, a black b
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| or we can all darned well fake it at the very least.
Dan, Larry, and the rest of the members of perl6-internals:
I apologize for my behaviour the other evening. It was childish and served
no purpose on this lis
$!,
| or $?, or anything that might call anything from the C library.
Ok, here's my new RFC. This should handle all of Tom's objections:
=head1 TITLE
Perl is Tom's private domain.
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Stephen P. Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 8/25/2000
Versio
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wh
ispered:
| However, since those funtions take up about 200 lines in the core, are
| very stable and relatively easy to document, what do we win by
| removing them?
|
| PS The idea of adding acos, asin and tan is good
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Tom Christiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m> whispered:
| Unless that's done completely transparently, you'll pretty much screw the
| pooch as far as "Perl is the Cliff Notes of Unix" notion. Not to
| mention running a very strong risk of butchering the performan
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Jarkko Hietaniemi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered
:
| Is there are a problem with Math::Trig I've not been told about?
| Well, sqrt() is not strictly speaking just for trigonometry.
| But I wonder what log() is doing in the proposed list.
I wanted to write th
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Johan Vromans) whi
spered:
| Do we have an RFC yet that proposes Perl to be easier parsable?
| Damian?
Great idea. I'd love to see us come up with some "meta" RFCs which say
what the main goals of perl6 are. Then we could align the curr
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "Michael Maraist" whispered:
| >From this, socket, and virtually all IPC methods should go the wayside.
| This includes pipes, shell environment ops ( the get and set functions ),
| and even the file-io (open, close, and possibly even printf, sprintf). At
|
I don't see these ideas in RFCs:
* The match operator, C, is always required (bare C becomes a fatal
error).
* Replace C with flag to C, and remove special meaning of C.
* Socket functions (such as C, C, etc) should be moved from
the core to modules/libraries.
* Math functions (such as C, C,
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "Jeremy Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| No. They are lazily evaluated and require special optimisations to allow
I don't completely understand this whole lazy evaluation, so I'm confused
how these functions would work on them. Explain to me how you
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Perl6 RFC Librarian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| =head3 Well-Named Global Hashes And Keys
|
| For each collection of variables, a well-named pseudo-hash with
| well-named keys:
|
| $PERL_CORE{warnings} vs $^W
| $PERL_CORE{version}
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whisper
ed:
| I suggest a modification to this RFC: if chomp() is called without args,
| it modifies $_ directly, consistent with its current implementation.
| That way you can write:
If it is called without args, it really i
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Perl6 RFC Librarian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| =head1 TITLE
|
| Eliminate the optional C for C etc block declarations
It seems to me it makes more sense to require the sub, but to move them
into a different namespace (CORE:: or Perl:: or INTERNAL:: o
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Perl6 RFC Librarian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
whispered:
| =head1 TITLE
|
| Builtin: partition
|
| =head1 ABSTRACT
|
| It is proposed that a new function, C, be added to Perl.
| C would return @list broken into
| references to sub-lists, each one $list_size in
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispere
d:
| > Arrays are ordered. Hashes are not. Sure, you can iterate over a hash,
| > but add an element to one and you can change the order of everything in
| > it.
|
| Formally, I believe it's permissable for a hash
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and Jonathan Scott Duff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> whispered:
| Um, it's not guaranteed to blow up in 2038. That's an implementation
| detail. IF we implement our time values as 64-bit integers (for
| instance), we'll long out-live the 2038 deadline.
I don't know ab
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and "Jeremy Howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> whispered:
| > > No, neither proposal makes sense. Arrays can be stored compactly and
| >
| > $a[1_000_000_000] = 'oh, really?' # :-)
| >
| my int @a: sparse;
| $a[1_000_000_000] = 'Yes, really!' # :P
|
| OK, so I chea
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