Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Nick Holland writes: > First of all, I've been informed who Greg Oster is...a/the maintainer of > RAIDframe. Guilty as charged. > So, let's start by acknowledging his superior knowledge in > the area (possibly a little bias, but his knowledge of this topic is to > be respected). Well "super

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 03:58:26PM -0500, Nick Holland wrote: > up toasting them, far from the end of the world. I can give you a very > good explaination (or several) for why a disk powered down mid-write > could be dammaged, it is really odd how RARELY this actually happens in > real life. I co

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

First of all, I've been informed who Greg Oster is...a/the maintainer of RAIDframe. So, let's start by acknowledging his superior knowledge in the area (possibly a little bias, but his knowledge of this topic is to be respected). I am NOT A file system expert. I am barely file system aware. Som

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Nick Holland writes: > Greg Oster wrote: > ... > > Here's what I'd encourage you (or anyone else) to do: > > actually, I'd encourage you do try your own test. Results were interesting. Well... as we see, you did *your* version of the test, not mine ;) > > 1) Create a ccd as you describe in the

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Greg Oster wrote: ... > Here's what I'd encourage you (or anyone else) to do: actually, I'd encourage you do try your own test. Results were interesting. > 1) Create a ccd as you describe in the HOWTO and mount the filesystem. used my own instructions, if you don't mind. :) Softdeps on. That m

RE: Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:19:49 > >I know of several people who ran software mirroring >on Windows and they had >major problems with it along the lines that Greg >described. I also know some >people that never had problems in a similar setup >with OpenBSD. Prodded a >little more, they n

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

I know of several people who ran software mirroring on Windows and they had major problems with it along the lines that Greg described. I also know some people that never had problems in a similar setup with OpenBSD. Prodded a little more, they never had it crash so I guess sometimes being stable c

RE: Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >Robbert Haarman writes: >> Greg, >> >> Again, you raise some interesting issues. I >wonder how likely the >> catastrophic failures you describe are, versus >how likely it is that >> things fail in a way where ccd actually helps >you. I was hoping someone >> else woul

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Greg Oster > Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:26 PM > To: Robbert Haarman > Cc: misc@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO > > Robbert Haarman writes: &

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

aken down, and a "dd" done from the primary to the secondary (or secondary to primary, depending on which one the user guesses might be the most up-to-date). In fact, if you had to poke the 'reset' button at all, you probably need to do a 'dd'... > > To me

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

t goes for _any_ kind of mirroring), and that RAID is superior to CCD. The HOWTO might actually not emphasize these points enough; I'll have a look at it sometime and make changes if I deem them necessary. > To me, until the above have satisfactory > answers, the only thing the

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Hi [at the risk of straying on-topic...] On misc@openbsd.org you said: > Dear list, especially Greg and Mickey, > > I've updated the working copy of the CCD Mirroring HOWTO. In particular, > I've split off the comparison to software RAID into a separate section > an

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:15:26 +0100, Robbert Haarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Dear JCR, > >> To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on >> this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people >> consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth th

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenBSD claims to be done for the benefit of its developers and every indication that I've seen says that they mean exactly what they say. True and nothing wrong with that. Concerns of users are secondary at best. The developers will help you if you have something g

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Robbert Haarman wrote: [snip] > As it stands, OpenBSD is the only operating system I am aware of that > has had the full base system completely audited and has buffer overrun > and other protections enabled for all software on it. This, by itself, > makes it more secure than other systems, regard

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Dear JCR, > To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on > this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people > consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added noise and > bandwidth. If this is a concern, why don't we take the discussio

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Daniel Ouellet wrote: > In all these: > > >>I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard > >>telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a > >>bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good > >>documentation, before we're really read

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:58:04 +0100, frantisek holop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >hmm, on Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 09:34:39AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said that >> Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as >> seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's > >this

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

In all these: I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good documentation, before we're really ready to jump into these things the way we

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Are you subscribed to newbies? We don't do the bullshit like the HOWTOs or openbsdsupport.org. We teach you how to help yourself. The answers come with learning, so you can be a better admin. On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:30:21 -0800 "J.C. Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: : Things like "HowTo" do

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

hmm, on Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 05:00:39PM +, Michael Quaintance said that > /Please/ don't loose your verbosity. > > For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD > community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy how can you believe one man's opinion to b

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

hmm, on Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 09:34:39AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said that > Yes, OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system that takes security as > seriously as it should be taken. Consider the why of OpenBSD's this is a silly argument. of course it is not the only system. don't think nobody else t

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 16:54:04 -0500, Chris Zakelj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >J.C. Roberts wrote: > >>I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the >>project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who >>actually have both the expertise and dedication needed

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts wrote: >On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:00:39 +, Michael Quaintance ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>JCR, >> >>/Please/ don't loose your verbosity. >> >>For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD >>community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:25:16 +, Michael Quaintance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >J.C. Roberts wrote: > >[snip] > >>I'm just a normal user who doesn't contribute a great deal to the >>project, so there is a *HUGE* difference between me and the people who >>actually have both the expertise and ded

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts wrote: Please do not mistake me and my opinions for the opinions of the OpenBSD community in general. OpenBSD users and developers actually thrive on the conflict of differing opinions; a reasonably friendly competition to figure out and prove both what works and what works best.

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:00:39 +, Michael Quaintance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >JCR, > >/Please/ don't loose your verbosity. > >For newbies like me, your lengthy descriptions of why the OpenBSD >community thinks like it does are incredibly useful. Short, pithy >explanations like Tony's are gr

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts wrote: Both security and reliability are really nothing more than a byproduct of correctness and well informed decisions. On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:34:39 -0600, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's the point. Note the "nothing more". And the "byproduct". If you throw away the corr

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

J.C. Roberts wrote: > To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on > this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people > consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added noise and > bandwidth. > > > On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:57:12 +0100, Rob

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:34:39 -0600, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >J.C. Roberts wrote: >> To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on >> this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people >> consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

To the rest of list users; Please pardon another long email from me on this. Helping reasonable people like Robbert understand why many people consider "HOWTO's" to be harmful is hopefully worth the added noise and bandwidth. On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:57:12 +0100, Robbert Haarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Robbert Haarman wrote: >>If end-users are lazy and want to take the easy way out, they should >>go back to using linux and MS-Windows. They are not welcome here. >> >> > >That's a pity. I personally think OpenBSD is the _only_ operating system >that takes security as seriously as it should be

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Robbert Haarman wrote: > The reason I wrote the HOWTO is that, in my opinion of course, the > manpages don't make it clear how to set things up. Searching the > archives for more information came up with some contradictory messages, > and some instances of people being misl

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Dear JCR, Thank you for your informative message. > Things like "HowTo" documents, sites like openbsdsupport.org and lists > like openbsd-newbie@ are more often than not considered garbage. The > reason is simply because you are robbing the reader of the fundamental > and important details that t

Re: Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:52:51 +0100, Robbert Haarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Dear list, especially Greg and Mickey, > >I've updated the working copy of the CCD Mirroring HOWTO. In particular, >I've split off the comparison to software RAID into a separate section

Updated CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Dear list, especially Greg and Mickey, I've updated the working copy of the CCD Mirroring HOWTO. In particular, I've split off the comparison to software RAID into a separate section and clarified that ccd does not do automatic recovery, and I've rewritten the section on labelin

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 04:50:34PM +0100, mickey wrote: > default 'c' type is unused. > at least on default systems... On REAL disks, yes. On ccd disks, it seems to be different. Or maybe ccdconfig screws it up. > > 2. The OpenBSD slices of my disks start at sector 24659775. This is also > > whe

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 04:02:03PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 03:03:22PM +0100, mickey wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:57:22PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > > > > > > I'm not sure what you mean here. What I meant is that ccdconfig will > > > automatically crea

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:43:31PM +0100, mickey wrote: > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:41:47PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > > > > This still leaves the issue of ccdconfig setting up the c partition as > > type 4.2BSD. If this can thrash the disklabel, that sounds like a > > serious bug. Is that go

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:41:47PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:26:08PM +0100, mickey wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:14:35PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > > by using 'c' partition one may endup trashing real disk's label. > > DO NOT USE 'c' PARTITION. > > Ok,

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:26:08PM +0100, mickey wrote: > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:14:35PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > by using 'c' partition one may endup trashing real disk's label. > DO NOT USE 'c' PARTITION. Ok, I'll change the HOWTO and add a FAQ entry ASAP. Apologies for not believing

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

> >Of course, if somebody who > >actually knew the implementation details about ccd could weigh in, > >that would resolve the issue. > > they just did. > Ok, thanks for pointing that out. I apologize for my uninformed comments, especially

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

--On 25 November 2005 14:14 +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: Of course, if somebody who actually knew the implementation details about ccd could weigh in, that would resolve the issue. they just did.

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 02:14:35PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > > > http://inglorion.net/documents/tutorials/ccd/. > > > > labeling section is wrong. > > one MUST never use 'c' partition. > > one MUST always make an 'a' (for example) > > to skip first cylinder (at least). > > That's true for r

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

> > http://inglorion.net/documents/tutorials/ccd/. > > labeling section is wrong. > one MUST never use 'c' partition. > one MUST always make an 'a' (for example) > to skip first cylinder (at least). That's true for real disks, but it doesn't seem to be true for ccd devices. If it were true, ccdco

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 05:14:16PM +0100, Robbert Haarman wrote: > For those who are interested, I've uploaded a tutorial on setting up > mirroring using ccd(4) to http://inglorion.net/documents/tutorials/ccd/. labeling section is wrong. one MUST never use 'c' partition. one MUST always make an '

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

Hi In openbsd-misc you mentioned this web-page: http://inglorion.net/documents/tutorials/ccd/ I have a few questions/comments about the above and about ccd in OpenBSD in general. 1) You talk about "RAID only works with whole disks"? I'm curious which RAID implementation you're referring to..

Re: CCD Mirroring HOWTO

> http://inglorion.net/documents/tutorials/ccd/ > > I have a few questions/comments about the above and about ccd > in OpenBSD in general. > > 1) You talk about "RAID only works with whole disks"? I'm curious > which RAID implementation you're referring to... it seems like you > might be talk

CCD Mirroring HOWTO

For those who are interested, I've uploaded a tutorial on setting up mirroring using ccd(4) to http://inglorion.net/documents/tutorials/ccd/. -- Bob