In all these:
I'm going to take this thread for what I think it is... the old guard
telling us youngin's that our efforts are appreciated, but we've got a
bit more to learn about how things work, and how to write good
documentation, before we're really ready to jump into these things the
way we have been lately. I've noticed a decent drop in the number of
"How do I get PPPoE working" and "How do I get Apache+MySQL+PHP working"
questions on the list, which is what prompted Daniel to create
openbsdsupport in the first place, so in a way, we've been successful in
what we set out to do.
I may seem overly critical in debate but I still believe the work of
Daniel Ouellet and the HOWTO writers has been a worthwhile experiment.
Though it has opened the door for the blind leading blind, only by
experimenting with new ideas will one be able to prove or disprove their
validity and in the process, you might learn something unexpected.
or
quote "Are you subscribed to newbies? We don't do the bullshit like the
HOWTOs or openbsdsupport.org. We teach you how to help yourself. The
answers come with learning, so you can be a better admin."
There is many sad facts and true factors from both sides. Users have to
and should look for informations and the proper way of doing things.
Hopefully the fact that they decide to switch their OS to OpenBSD may
open the light a bit and may have become a bit more critical to security
anyway, so one would think they wouldn't jump on the first document they
find and just do cut and paste. But the fact of life is also that you
can be sure some will for sure just do that!
Other may read some documents and see something in it that haven't seen
before and pick their curiously to go look why that is and actually
improve their learning. Not the majority I agree!
So, nothing is perfect and never will be!
Is it better to provide some help to some users to get them started, or
does it hurt them for not forcing them to dig in vain to fine something
they would get easier. Will the results favor the laziness, or the
curiosity! I wish I knew that answer! Who are lazy, most likely will
stay that way. Some that are incline to change, may well see it as
useful and change, who are doing their homework will take it for what it
is, an other source of information and grab anything, or nothing they
see fit from it, and finally who ever know it all, will see it as a
waist and not look at it, why should they anyway! So, where you fit,
will dictate your point of view on the subject I guess.
Does it mean it shouldn't exists as a side track? I still don't know for
sure yet...
But, I think the best way might be to provide the informations in a cons
ice matter WITH reference (URL) to more details and ALWAYS warn the
users NOT to do simply cut and paste as this hurt them for sure, but to
seek the understanding of what is suggested in the documents. Not the
stage of things now of almost all side documents at this time and may
well be never either.
But who never start walking will never be running either!
So, it's like, providing knobs to a monkey and he will turn them, that's
why OpenBSD doesn't have knobs like many other OS, or very few knobs
anyway! Generic default is best, so how to provide more informations and
make it easier for users that are not use to do their research and help
them use a better system and at the same time try to trigger them to
learn it without aliening them! I wish I knew the solution for that!
But, I do believe this however, if a brain dead user switch from a less
secure OS ( take your pick of OS here ) and comes to OpenBSD for
security, documentations, curiosity, stability, what ever else, and stop
using the less secure OS, what ever that might be, and in the process
use what some would call "bullshit and stupid brain dead HOWTOs for
monkeys", and never learn more about it, and in the process, may even
hurt it's own setup and making it less secure in the process by using
the brain dead HOWTOs, wouldn't the system in the end still be more
secure then the same setup in any other OS? Don't forget the common
factor here. Brain dead setup to start with, so very likely to be miss
configure in the first place and joint many other less secure system on
the Internet and continue to pollute it.
I guess that's really the questions isn't it?
Sadly there will always be brain dead users that cut and paste without
thinking, or knowing, or even wanted to know or learn, what ever you
want to describe it, in the end the resulting system in use by the same
brain dead users is still more secure then an other system setup in the
same matter by the same brain dead users, so the facts remain that in a
small matter, the Internet at large become a bit safer for all of us!
Isn't it all what we wish it to be!?
With all aspect been equal and you can't change the world, or some brain
dead users, they will setup servers no matter what and infect the
Internet somehow with OpenBSD, or anything else, wouldn't you want at a
minimum an OpenBSD system there that have more chance to affect the
Internet at large less then the same brain dead system running an other
OS that will send you a bunch of spam, virus, be use for building attack
on your servers, routers, network, what ever, etc!?
I don't know about you, but I would still prefer that! Call it brain
dead security if you like. You can't force that users to return his/here
server to the store and not touch a computer ever for the benefit of
all! So, may as well try to give them something that is less likely to
be compromise, and affect everyone else, and in the process may be save
them from their own stupidity, no?
I don't know but with everything been equal, one still have to come to
peace with the facts and accept that there will always be users that
will never want to learn and that will always setup unsecured systems
that will affect all of us, like it or not! But if there is a way to
reduce the risk for everyone else, shouldn't this also be consider in
the picture of the may be stupid HOWTOs?
May be in the end, the useless HOWTOs just grant me the serenity to
accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I
can, and the wisdom to know the difference!
There is may be a place for some of them, hopefully they will become of
good quality over time and help to secure the Internet as little as it
might be, is still better then nothing at all!
Just my $0.02 worth in way to many words, sorry for that!
Daniel
