Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-15 Thread Paul Morris
Federico Bruni wrote >> Does anyone know if we got any applicants for this summer of code >> project? >> I remember seeing at least one inquiry about it. > > https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2014 > > 2 days and few hours left and I couldn't find any lilypond project > searc

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-15 Thread David Kastrup
Paul Morris writes: > Jan-Peter Voigt wrote >> I think Guile V2 is the most important issue regarding lilypond in general >> and especially with these thoughts. This would speed up the scheme-part of >> lilypond and ensure its inclusion in linux-distros. > > +1 > > And I suppose that any potent

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-15 Thread Federico Bruni
2014-04-11 21:58 GMT+02:00 Jan Nieuwenhuizen : > My hopes for Schikkers List (if any) are that it would aid in a guile > scheme to sneak the LilyPond dinosaur into the GUI age and thus help > keeping it's relevancy up. > > If something like Schikkers List would take-off that could trigger > a real

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-15 Thread Federico Bruni
2014-04-15 20:55 GMT+02:00 Paul Morris : > And I suppose that any potential future work on optimizing and speeding up > LilyPond compilation (which I think everyone agrees would be a good thing) > would make more sense after upgrading to Guile 2.0 (maybe even 2.2 ?). > > Does anyone know if we got

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-15 Thread Paul Morris
Jan-Peter Voigt wrote > I think Guile V2 is the most important issue regarding lilypond in general > and especially with these thoughts. This would speed up the scheme-part of > lilypond and ensure its inclusion in linux-distros. +1 And I suppose that any potential future work on optimizing and

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-15 Thread Paul Morris
Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote > Yes, that's correct. It's an ugly optimization that's needed because > lilypond would otherwise be too slow for interactive use. It will > probably only work (or seem to work) if the changes made are small > enough. Currently, partial engraving is line-based but we coul

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Urs Liska
Am 12.04.2014 00:00, schrieb Francisco Vila: 2014-04-11 14:52 GMT+02:00 Jan-Peter Voigt : Yes, but lilypond is a text-based commandline tool that can easily be used with frescobaldi. So I would say, it's a good thing, if there are ways to make communication between lily and frescobaldi easier to

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Francisco Vila
2014-04-11 14:52 GMT+02:00 Jan-Peter Voigt : > Yes, but lilypond is a text-based commandline tool that can easily be used > with frescobaldi. So I would say, it's a good thing, if there are ways to > make communication between lily and frescobaldi easier to achieve cool > things. But the graphical

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Jan Nieuwenhuizen
Paul Morris writes: > On the question about possibilities for some kind of partial compilation, > I'd be curious to hear from Jan about his experience with Schikker's > List[1]. Do I remember correctly that it uses LilyPond to re-engrave only > part of the music, just the part that changed? Yes,

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Łukasz Czerwiński
I agree with this freak called Janek ;) Actually I can hear there some reverberation of my own ideas ;) That's great that you want to make Lilypond more user-friendly and make the initial learning curve not that steep, but it the same time don't forget our you Ultimate Goal. That's awesome! :) All

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Paul Morris
Hi all, On the question about possibilities for some kind of partial compilation, I'd be curious to hear from Jan about his experience with Schikker's List[1]. Do I remember correctly that it uses LilyPond to re-engrave only part of the music, just the part that changed? Cheers, -Paul [1] htt

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt
Hi there, Am 11.04.14 00:36, schrieb Urs Liska: Nevertheless I think that trying to improve usability _now_ _is_ a good thing. Yes it is, _but_ the question of _how_ to achieve the improved usibility is dangerous. We should focus on the unique characteristic of lilypond: It can't do graphical

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread David Kastrup
Joram Berger writes: >> Well, it's also in the market for dinosaur tools, namely text-based >> batch processing tools. > > If dinosaur means that they will die out as time passes, I don't > agree. Living fossils, then. The way of the horseshoe crab... > Considering the recent emphasis on web-

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Joram Berger
> Well, it's also in the market for dinosaur tools, namely text-based > batch processing tools. If dinosaur means that they will die out as time passes, I don't agree. Considering the recent emphasis on web-techniques, I feel like some people actually start liking text-based approaches due to th

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread David Kastrup
"Phil Holmes" writes: > - Original Message - > From: Jan Warchoł > To: David Kastrup ; Mike Solomon ; Kieren MacMillan ; Han-Wen Nienhuys > Cc: LilyPond Development Team > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:23 PM > Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedb

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread Phil Holmes
- Original Message - From: Jan Warchoł To: David Kastrup ; Mike Solomon ; Kieren MacMillan ; Han-Wen Nienhuys Cc: LilyPond Development Team Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom Look at what happened with Browser Wars

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-11 Thread David Kastrup
Urs Liska writes: > Am 11.04.2014 00:51, schrieb David Kastrup: > >> I want to be able to draw up some score of mine in ten years and >> print new versions of it using the version of LilyPond I'll be using >> then. I've done a mediocre job of ensuring that regarding the >> stability of LilyPond'

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread Urs Liska
Am 11.04.2014 00:51, schrieb David Kastrup: Urs Liska writes: That's a difficult issue, and I think you both (Janek and David) are completely right with what you write. Nevertheless I think that trying to improve usability _now_ _is_ a good thing. A user of a (notation) software usually need

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread Thomas Morley
2014-04-11 0:51 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup : [...] > A good part of my work is making it easier for others to do what they > want. [...] ... and let me say a big THANK YOU for that ... Best, Harm ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org htt

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread David Kastrup
Urs Liska writes: > That's a difficult issue, and I think you both (Janek and David) are > completely right with what you write. > > Nevertheless I think that trying to improve usability _now_ _is_ a > good thing. > > A user of a (notation) software usually needs to finish stuff for a > concrete

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread Urs Liska
That's a difficult issue, and I think you both (Janek and David) are completely right with what you write. Nevertheless I think that trying to improve usability _now_ _is_ a good thing. A user of a (notation) software usually needs to finish stuff for a concrete purpose. An engraver will pro

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread David Kastrup
Jan Warchoł writes: > Or, to look from other perspective: at current development speed, it > will take LilyPond somewhere between 10 and 100 years to reach the > stage where it does most of the things The Right Way (TM) (i.e. that > most of the ordinary scores are engraved 100% publication qualit

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread Jan Warchoł
Post Scriptum: after rereading my previous email, i see that it sounds as if i believed that implementing the Ultimate Goal (i.e. automatic engraving) and effectively improving "efficiency" were mutually exclusive. I don't think that's the case - in some cases the most effective (= with the bigges

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread Jan Warchoł
Hi, 2014-04-10 11:51 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup : > Urs Liska writes: > >> Am 09.04.2014 11:53, schrieb Jan Warchoł: >> >>> Concerning compilation speed - this is indeed a serious problem for >>> LilyPond, and i don't know which part of the code is most responsible for >>> this. Unfortunately i exp

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread David Kastrup
Urs Liska writes: > Am 09.04.2014 11:53, schrieb Jan Warchoł: > >> Concerning compilation speed - this is indeed a serious problem for >> LilyPond, and i don't know which part of the code is most responsible for >> this. Unfortunately i expect that changing this would require at least one >> exp

Re: [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-10 Thread Urs Liska
Am 09.04.2014 11:53, schrieb Jan Warchoł: 2014-04-04 12:43 GMT+02:00 Urs Liska : (the handling of accidentals in the input for example: In Amadeus you write the "visible" notes, that is: the meaning of "d f a" depends on the currently active key signature). But some others look interesting, an

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-09 Thread Jan Warchoł
2014-04-04 12:43 GMT+02:00 Urs Liska : > (the > handling of accidentals in the input for example: In Amadeus you write the > "visible" notes, that is: the meaning of "d f a" depends on the currently > active key signature). But some others look interesting, and I'll post them > on bug-lilypond to

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-05 Thread David Kastrup
Francisco Vila writes: > Urs, this is very interesting. My two thoughts below. >> >> Another aspect that I found very astonishing is compilation speed. Of course >> Amadeus files have to be compiled before the result is visible, and this can >> be automatically done upon save. I think Frescobaldi

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-05 Thread Francisco Vila
Urs, this is very interesting. My two thoughts below. 2014-04-04 12:43 GMT+02:00 Urs Liska : > ### > > The most interesting aspect of the meeting was that Henle's (only) in-house > engraver was present too, and this may become a fruitful contact. He is > using Amadeus, a Linux (!) program he bough

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-04 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
Hi Urs, really interesting! I have just some short comments. Am 2014-04-04 um 16:43 schrieb Urs Liska : > treble F 4/4 is the equivalent to > > \clef treble > \key f \major > \time 4/4 > > (,9 ),10_a140140h30 > seems to be an equivalent to a \shape invocation > > Personally I think that L

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-04 Thread David Kastrup
Urs Liska writes: >> This becomes particularly important when it comes to tweaking >> output. He wrote (my translation): "My first look at LilyPond [through >> my presentation and a follow-up email] shows similarities to Amadeus, >> but OTOH I have the suspicion that the operation

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-04 Thread Urs Liska
*Von:* David Kastrup *Gesendet:* Fri Apr 04 14:24:28 MESZ 2014 *An:* Urs Liska *CC:* LilyPond Development Team , "Jan Warchoł" *Betreff:* [SPAM] Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom Urs Liska writes

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-04 Thread Urs Liska
Am 04.04.2014 15:04, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt: I don't suggest any significant changes in our input syntax. But I >>want to point out that editing efficiency on that level_is_ an issue >>we should keep taking into account when it comes to professional >>work. >Current LilyPond input tools, edito

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-04 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt
Am 04.04.2014 14:24, schrieb David Kastrup: > Urs Liska writes: > >> The most interesting aspect of the meeting was that Henle's (only) >> in-house engraver was present too, and this may become a fruitful >> contact. He is using Amadeus, a Linux (!) program he bought for 20.000 >> Euro in 1988 >

Re: Serious feedback and improvement headroom

2014-04-04 Thread David Kastrup
Urs Liska writes: > The most interesting aspect of the meeting was that Henle's (only) > in-house engraver was present too, and this may become a fruitful > contact. He is using Amadeus, a Linux (!) program he bought for 20.000 > Euro in 1988 Well, in 1988 there was no Euro. I presume that you