Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > You and Zeev have disagreed with several RFCs that have passed, and > apparently you're perceiving that as "people committing changes > whenever they feel like". Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not try to guess what I think. You are bad at it. I never claimed that, never though

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > This is why trying to force RFC authors to respond to every point is > such a bad idea. You try to absurdize the position by taking it to unreasonable absolute. Nobody asks anybody to respond to literally *every* point, no matter how minor. Responding on major objections, however, is expect

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:09 PM guilhermebla...@gmail.com < guilhermebla...@gmail.com> wrote: > threat /THret/ noun: a statement of an intention to inflict pain, > injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for > something done or not done. > Exactly. If making people stic

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

threat /THret/ noun: a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done. Anyway, can we vote on this RFC? On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:54 AM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 4:31 PM Dan Ackroyd

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 4:31 PM Dan Ackroyd wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 09:50, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > > This was not a threat of any kind, > > "If we need to pull rank with group@ here, we will." > > "I'm confident that if it ever came to that, I'll have the backing of > group@, which is

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 09:50, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > This was not a threat of any kind, "If we need to pull rank with group@ here, we will." "I'm confident that if it ever came to that, I'll have the backing of group@, which is why I wrote what I wrote." Those are threats. You were threatenin

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 20:01, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > If you do not intend to work with others, that's fine, don't - but > then it can not be a part of the community process. At least > if we still want to have a community and not just a bunch > of people committing changes whenever they fee

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

I believe I addressed most of what you wrote in my reply to Nikita, except for this: On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 10:45 PM Dan Ackroyd wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 20:09, Zeev Suraski wrote: > If they do - it's absolutely their responsibility > > to defend their proposal > > Zeev, this isn't a r

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 10:37 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > Zeev, > > Nikita, Similarly to how I answered Bob, I want to prefix my message with an off-topic statement that I think is important, albeit obvious. I think you're a remarkably talented developer that is an invaluable asset to the PHP proje

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 20:09, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > If you propose, be ready to discuss it in good faith, including > with folks with opposing views who take their time to write detailed feedback. Some of the points raised during discussions are not technical arguments that can be addressed, so

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 9:09 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 9:30 PM Bob Weinand wrote: > > > > Am 30.07.2019 um 17:14 schrieb Zeev Suraski : > > > > > Zeev > > > > Before I answer on point - I'd like to thank you that despite the fact you > clearly disagree with me - you wrote

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 9:30 PM Bob Weinand wrote: > > Am 30.07.2019 um 17:14 schrieb Zeev Suraski : > > > Zeev > Before I answer on point - I'd like to thank you that despite the fact you clearly disagree with me - you wrote your message in a courteous, respectful tone. And now, on point: >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > You can either silently ignore somebody or announce it. You may > consider it a courtesy to have it announced so that they don't wonder > why they are not being replied to. For me it's perfectly fine. Sure I > wouldn't be happy if anyone said that about me, but I would have to > accept it. E

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> Am 30.07.2019 um 17:14 schrieb Zeev Suraski : > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:10 PM Levi Morrison > wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:55 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: >> >> > I think ignoring people is totally acceptable behaviour on this list. May I >> remind you that in the not distant past thi

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:10 PM Levi Morrison wrote: > On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:55 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > I think ignoring people is totally acceptable behaviour on this list. May I > remind you that in the not distant past this list was called a toxic > kindergarten and other similar names

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:55 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > > I'm sorry Stas, but I will not be reading your mails in the future. I > think you mean > > well and do raise legitimate points, but I have noticed over a long > period of time > > that I find arguing with you to be extremely mentally exha

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 11:28, Nikita Popov wrote: > With that in mind, I don't see an issue with reusing the previous > call-time pass-by-ref syntax here. The & at the call-site still means that > the value is going to be passed by refrence (or error), so it's not like > someone who was around du

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:01 AM Nicolas Grekas < nicolas.grekas+...@gmail.com> wrote: > Le mar. 30 juil. 2019 à 10:34, Rowan Collins a > écrit : > > > On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 07:14, Nicolas Grekas > > wrote: > > > > > I think enough time has passed since php4's call-by-ref for the syntax > to >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:35 PM Rowan Collins wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 15:41, Nikita Popov wrote: > > > This proposal (at least combined with a declare that enforces use of > > call-site annotations) addresses that concern. out/inout parameters do > not > > address this concern, because t

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 10:00, Nicolas Grekas wrote: > Call-time pass-by-reference is deprecated since PHP 4.3.0 and triggers a > deprecation warning since then: > https://3v4l.org/MFXsJ > > That's since Dec 2002. > It looks like the history is more complicated than either of us are remembering.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Le mar. 30 juil. 2019 à 10:34, Rowan Collins a écrit : > On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 07:14, Nicolas Grekas > wrote: > > > I think enough time has passed since php4's call-by-ref for the syntax to > > be > > reused now. I think it's unfair to call the RFC a reminiscent of > > call-by-ref BTW. > > > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 07:14, Nicolas Grekas wrote: > I think enough time has passed since php4's call-by-ref for the syntax to > be > reused now. I think it's unfair to call the RFC a reminiscent of > call-by-ref BTW. > Firstly, please let's stop calling this a "PHP 4" feature. It was fully su

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Le mer. 6 déc. 2017 à 20:50, Nikita Popov a écrit : > Hi internals, > > I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference > argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref > > In short, while current

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> I'm sorry Stas, but I will not be reading your mails in the future. I think > you mean > well and do raise legitimate points, but I have noticed over a long period of > time > that I find arguing with you to be extremely mentally exhaustive, while > ultimately deriving very little actionable

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > I'm referring to the compiler and optimizer here. Especially in > namespaced code we pretty much always don't have a hard guarantee on > what function will get called. This means that we have to generate code > that dynamically dispatches between by-val passing and by-ref passing > (this is

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Den 2019-07-30 kl. 00:27, skrev Björn Larsson: Den 2019-07-29 kl. 20:00, skrev Stephen Reay: On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:34, Rowan Collins wrote: I guess what I had in mind was that *in the long-term*, out/inout parameters would replace & parameters, Excuse my ignorance (presumably about the comple

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Den 2019-07-29 kl. 20:00, skrev Stephen Reay: On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:34, Rowan Collins wrote: I guess what I had in mind was that *in the long-term*, out/inout parameters would replace & parameters, Excuse my ignorance (presumably about the complexity involved) if this is obvious, but if out/i

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 11:05 PM Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > > This discussion seems to have lost track of the context ... the original > > quote (which Stas cherry-picked in a way that lost the original meaning): > > > >> I think nowadays it is well known that by-reference passing is to

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > Do your teams actively remove direct calls to array_push() and > array_multisort()? In any case, I’m sure that most PHP developers don’t. > > > Yes: usually replaced by `[]` or wrappers of those functions that > de-reference the variables, so that no references are used. Again, by

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > This discussion seems to have lost track of the context ... the original > quote (which Stas cherry-picked in a way that lost the original meaning): > >> I think nowadays it is well known that by-reference passing is to be > avoided and I don't see it particularly commonly in user code. By-

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:34, Rowan Collins wrote: > > I guess what I had in mind was that *in the long-term*, > out/inout parameters would replace & parameters, Excuse my ignorance (presumably about the complexity involved) if this is obvious, but if out/inout parameters are considered to be

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> Le 29 juil. 2019 à 16:40, Nikita Popov a écrit : > > > You seem to be agreeing with what I originally said: That by-reference > passing is mainly useful to interoperate with by-reference internal > functions, which don't exactly leave you with a choice. > To be clear: No, I’m not agreein

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 15:41, Nikita Popov wrote: > This proposal (at least combined with a declare that enforces use of > call-site annotations) addresses that concern. out/inout parameters do not > address this concern, because they are an mechanism that would be used *in > addition* to normal

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 10:40 AM Claude Pache wrote: > > > > Le 28 juil. 2019 à 21:12, Marco Pivetta a écrit : > > > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 9:06 PM Stanislav Malyshev > > wrote: > > > >> Hi! > >> > >>> Nah, by-ref is pretty much avoided in OSS packages, but we can surely > >>> survey the eco

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 10:40 Claude Pache wrote: > > > > Le 28 juil. 2019 à 21:12, Marco Pivetta a écrit : > > > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 9:06 PM Stanislav Malyshev > > wrote: > > > >> Hi! > >> > >>> Nah, by-ref is pretty much avoided in OSS packages, but we can surely > >>> survey the ecosyste

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> Le 28 juil. 2019 à 21:12, Marco Pivetta a écrit : > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 9:06 PM Stanislav Malyshev > wrote: > >> Hi! >> >>> Nah, by-ref is pretty much avoided in OSS packages, but we can surely >>> survey the ecosystem to verify this. >> >> I literally work with code that uses refe

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi Levi, Levi Morrison wrote: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Nikita Popov wrote: Hi internals, I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref In

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > The issue, as you well know, is that references disable copy-on-write. Thus > assume you have code like this: > > function with_ref(&$a) { >count ($a); > } > > function no_ref($a) { > count($a); > } > > The count in with_ref() will

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > > > On December 12, 2017 7:38:54 AM GMT+01:00, Stanislav Malyshev < > smalys...@gmail.com> wrote: > >Hi! > > > >> I would rather discourage usage of references. Since PHP 7 the cost > >of > >> breaking cow isn't as expensive anymore, but

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On December 12, 2017 8:51:42 AM GMT+01:00, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >Hi! > >> The issue, as you well know, is that references disable >copy-on-write. Thus assume you have code like this: >> >> function with_ref(&$a) { >>count ($a); >> } >> >> function no_ref($a) { >> count($a); >> } >>

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > The issue, as you well know, is that references disable copy-on-write. Thus > assume you have code like this: > > function with_ref(&$a) { >count ($a); > } > > function no_ref($a) { > count($a); > } > > The count in with_ref() will copy the array, while no_ref() can use copy on >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On December 12, 2017 7:38:54 AM GMT+01:00, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >Hi! > >> I would rather discourage usage of references. Since PHP 7 the cost >of >> breaking cow isn't as expensive anymore, but receiving values by >value >> and returning by value is more idiomatic imo. Using objects can be

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > I would rather discourage usage of references. Since PHP 7 the cost of > breaking cow isn't as expensive anymore, but receiving values by value > and returning by value is more idiomatic imo. Using objects can be more > efficient. Objects are kind of overkill when you just need a modifyable

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Nikita Popov wrote: > Hi internals, > > I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference > argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref > > In short, while current

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Oh wow, feature request already exists, with a link to this thread. On 10 December 2017 at 22:41, Andreas Hennings wrote: > > > On 7 December 2017 at 03:04, Stanislav Malyshev > wrote: >> >> All this to achieve no other benefit but a purely cosmetic one which a >> good IDE could easily deliver

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On 7 December 2017 at 03:04, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > All this to achieve no other benefit but a purely cosmetic one which a > good IDE could easily deliver to you for free without changing language > syntax. I do not think it is worth it. > I agree with Stanislav, this should be the IDE's j

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi, On Mi, 2017-12-06 at 20:49 +0100, Nikita Popov wrote: > Hi internals, > > I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference > argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration- > site: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref > I would rathe

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Am 08.12.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Stephen Reay: On 8 Dec 2017, at 5:16 pm, li...@rhsoft.net wrote: "Now expressing the same thing in two different ways, with or without & is confusing, so I think one needs to think about if old syntax should be deprecated in 8.0" woul

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> On 8 Dec 2017, at 5:16 pm, li...@rhsoft.net wrote: > > "Now expressing the same thing in two different ways, with or without & is > confusing, so I think one needs to think about if old syntax should be > deprecated in 8.0" would be a massive BC break That wasn’t in Rowans suggestion, it was

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Am 08.12.2017 um 17:36 schrieb CHU Zhaowei: On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 06:16 PM, "li...@rhsoft.net" wrote: > >and it's much bader to use a not so long existed syntax which was now >changed to a fatal error - just type "php call-by-reference" in google > I know most people of this list using and c

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 06:16 PM, "li...@rhsoft.net" wrote: > >and it's much bader to use a not so long existed syntax which was now >changed to a fatal error - just type "php call-by-reference" in google > I know most people of this list using and contributing to PHP for a very long time, but I want

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Am 08.12.2017 um 05:41 schrieb Stephen Reay: On 8 Dec 2017, at 08:54, "li...@rhsoft.net" wrote: Am 08.12.2017 um 01:38 schrieb Björn Larsson: Den 2017-12-06 kl. 20:49, skrev Nikita Popov: Hi internals, I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference argument pass

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Friday, December 8, 2017 12:42 PM, "Stephen Rea" < php-li...@koalephant.com> wrote: >> On 8 Dec 2017, at 08:54, "li...@rhsoft.net" wrote: >> >> >> >>> Am 08.12.2017 um 01:38 schrieb Björn Larsson: Den 2017-12-06 kl. 20:49, skrev Nikita Popov: Hi internals, I'd like prop

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

> On 8 Dec 2017, at 08:54, "li...@rhsoft.net" wrote: > > > >> Am 08.12.2017 um 01:38 schrieb Björn Larsson: >>> Den 2017-12-06 kl. 20:49, skrev Nikita Popov: >>> Hi internals, >>> >>> I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference >>> argument passing at the call-site,

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Am 08.12.2017 um 01:38 schrieb Björn Larsson: Den 2017-12-06 kl. 20:49, skrev Nikita Popov: Hi internals, I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Den 2017-12-06 kl. 20:49, skrev Nikita Popov: Hi internals, I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref In short, while currently we have

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Hi! > I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference > argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref > > In short, while currently we have > > function byRef(&$ref) {...} > byRef($var)

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:32 PM Rowan Collins wrote: > On 06/12/2017 19:49, Nikita Popov wrote: > > Hi internals, > > > > I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference > > argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site > > > Hi Nikita, > > I approve

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On 06/12/2017 19:49, Nikita Popov wrote: Hi internals, I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site Hi Nikita, I approve of the aims of this proposal, but I do wonder if it would be a bit awkward

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Sara Golemon wrote: >... that kind of information can also live in a docblock with > nearly the same force and effect (modulo the warning when the hint is > wrong). > Sorry, ignore that last statement. I've got a weird headache going on atm. Still neutral on it eit

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Nikita Popov wrote: > I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference > argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref > > In short, while currently we have > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Explicit call-site send-by-ref syntax

Am 06.12.2017 um 20:49 schrieb Nikita Popov: I'd like propose optional support for explicitly marking by-reference argument passing at the call-site, in addition to the declaration-site: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/explicit_send_by_ref In short, while currently we have function byRef(&