Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

Hi Dino, Thanks for clarification. Then expectations of users intuitively from my side can be: (1) I want to be agnostic to the network protocols (I do not want to know Bluetooth, ZigBee, thread, Airdrop, or any others). I just hope that if I buy an IoT device, I can take control of it by my p

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

> That may help, but only in limited cases. > > E.g., let’s say you run IPsec tunnel mode for IPv6, which eats the majority > of that space. Now that traffic runs over a second IPsec tunnel that you > don’t know about. > > That’s the problem - and why MTU (i.e., having a max in the first place)

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

> Thanks for clarification. > Then expectations of users intuitively from my side can be: > > (1) I want to be agnostic to the network protocols (I do not want to know > Bluetooth, ZigBee, thread, Airdrop, or any others). I just hope that if I buy > an IoT device, I can take control of it by my

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

> > On Dec 7, 2021, at 7:36 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: > >> That may help, but only in limited cases. >> >> E.g., let’s say you run IPsec tunnel mode for IPv6, which eats the majority >> of that space. Now that traffic runs over a second IPsec tunnel that you >> don’t know about. >> >> That’s

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 6:17 PM Dino Farinacci wrote: > > > Dino, > > Hey Tom. I should make it clear that I am replying to email in the context of > "user requirements", that means end user requirements. Hence my comment about > 1400. > > > Definitely at least for a limited domain. For instance,

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

On 08-Dec-21 05:30, to...@strayalpha.com wrote: ... But you make another point which is pretty fundamental and foundational. Should data links be MTU-less, so to speak? And can they really do that. I won't hold my breath. I don’t know yet, but I do know that’s what I *want* and why it’s diffe

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

On Dec 7, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 08-Dec-21 05:30, to...@strayalpha.com wrote: > ... >>> But you make another point which is pretty fundamental and foundational. >>> Should data links be MTU-less, so to speak? And can they really do that. I >>> won't hold my breath.

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

> Having said that, products may do this because security trumps all. >> >> But you make another point which is pretty fundamental and foundational. >> Should data links be MTU-less, so to speak? And can they really do that. I >> won't hold my breath. > > I don’t know yet, but I do know that’s

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

Right, I understand this. I said *it could8 use larger headers. So sounds like we are in agremement. That is, if we can't agree on 1400 because protocols have been spec'ed for smaller ones, that is where we are headed. In the opposite direction we wantn to go. Hence, there is no way to technica

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

And note if you get rid of data link MTUs, your head-of-line-blocking issue gets worse. Also note 1280 is not 53, and hence we have an international large scale network running, unlike ATM. Dino > On Dec 7, 2021, at 2:48 PM, to...@strayalpha.com wrote: > > On Dec 7, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Brian E

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

I think we’re generally in agreement. My view is that fragmentation is currently a necessary evil. Evil that should be avoided where possible, but necessary that MUST be supported. Joe — Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Dec 7, 2021, at 3:46 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote:

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

Since you can't FEC IP fragments, the apps have to do it. And since the apps do it, they fragment on IP MTU boundaries. Dino > On Dec 7, 2021, at 6:54 PM, to...@strayalpha.com wrote: > > I think we’re generally in agreement. > > My view is that fragmentation is currently a necessary evil. Evil

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

On Dec 7, 2021, at 3:47 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote: > > And note if you get rid of data link MTUs, your head-of-line-blocking issue > gets worse. Also note 1280 is not 53, and hence we have an international > large scale network running, unlike ATM. It’s more like I want to get rid of the reduct

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

Apps could (and would still need to) send individual payloads - but not have those payloads decreased based on how many headers are used. Again, like Ethernet. Think of it this way: Ethernet user payload is 1500B, always. There’s no such thing as an Ethernet-layer MTU because headers can vary.

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

This conversation is missing some fundamental points – really the most important points – which are the minimum sizes guaranteed to work everywhere. For IPv6, the minimum MTU/MRU are 1280/1500. For IPv4, they are only 68/576 but since the IPv4 network supports fragmentation we can nominally designa

Re: [Int-area] Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet?

Hi Dino, Please see inline. BR, Yihao -Original Message- From: Dino Farinacci Sent: 2021年12月7日 23:44 To: Jiayihao Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: Side meeting follow-up: What exact features do we want from the Internet? > Thanks for clarification. > Then expectations of users in