Re: IETF Diversity

Yup he didn't apply the Y2K patch ... those missing bits ... -Jorge On Jun 23, 2013, at 7:27 AM, j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: >> From: Randy Bush > >> there appears to be a problem with your mail system. mail which is >> clearly from the 1950s is appearing on the ietf list. >

Re: IETF Diversity

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: > > On Tue, June 18, 2013 9:52 am, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the > > diversity discussion that took place at the plenary. > > > > I do applications and I do security and so ha

Re: IETF Diversity

> From: Randy Bush > there appears to be a problem with your mail system. mail which is > clearly from the 1950s is appearing on the ietf list. You're right about it having fallen through a time warp - but you got the sign wrong. It's from the future, not the past. Noel

Re: IETF Diversity

there appears to be a problem with your mail system. mail which is clearly from the 1950s is appearing on the ietf list. somehow it has current dates, so something is header mashing. you may need help with your male system. randy

Re: IETF Diversity

On Wed, June 19, 2013 9:25 am, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: >>> On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been thinking and reading about soc

Re: IETF Diversity

On Tue, June 18, 2013 9:52 am, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the > diversity discussion that took place at the plenary. > > I do applications and I do security and so having a diverse range of input > is critical if the final product

Re: IETF Diversity

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:12 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Doug Barton > > > their work has been ignored and/or shouted down since it doesn't fit > > the narrative. > > The usual fate of those who care more about the data than the herd-meme of > the > moment. For a good example of

Re: IETF Diversity

> From: Doug Barton > their work has been ignored and/or shouted down since it doesn't fit > the narrative. The usual fate of those who care more about the data than the herd-meme of the moment. For a good example of this in action, those who are unfamiliar with the work of Barbara M

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 10:13 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote: Hi - It seems as though participants in this thread are operating with different understandings of what constitutes "institutional bias." A critical difference is whether *intent* is necessary for bias to exist. As I understand it, institutional bia

Re: IETF Diversity

Hi - It seems as though participants in this thread are operating with different understandings of what constitutes "institutional bias." A critical difference is whether *intent* is necessary for bias to exist. As I understand it, institutional bias can exist in the absence of ill intent, and c

Re: IETF Diversity

ge- > From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Moriarty, Kathleen > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 12:11 AM > To: Melinda Shore; Peter Saint-Andre > Cc: ietf@ietf.org > Subject: RE: IETF Diversity > > A little earlier in the thread, ways t

RE: IETF Diversity

AM To: Melinda Shore; Peter Saint-Andre Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: IETF Diversity A little earlier in the thread, ways to improve things came up. I presented at an international conference in Bangkok this week on the subject area covered by MILE. While the focus was intended to be more on how

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 05:09 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: On 6/19/13 2:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote: On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or management positions are men. So again, it's not at all c

Re: IETF Diversity vs. White Male ??

On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Aaron Yi DING wrote: > Well, if the dominant ones later being replaced by other groups, do we need > to revamp again? What will be the end? I'm told that white babies are now a minority of the population in the US. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2341066/W

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 2:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote: On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or management positions are men. So again, it's not at all clear how that relates to the IETF (given tha

Re: [IETF] Re: IETF Diversity

On Jun 19, 2013, at 2:35 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 6/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: >> Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of >> practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or >> management positions are men. Everybody's got good >> intentions > > > indeed, al

Re: IETF Diversity

On 19/06/13 22:56, Yoav Nir wrote: On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman wrote: To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the web page for the mentoring program with all the informatio

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 12:21 PM, Yoav Nir wrote: On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote: We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those problems elsewhere corresponds to any actual problem wi

Re: IETF Diversity

On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman wrote: > To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for > volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the > web page for the mentoring program with all the information is up, you should > be seein

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 1:27 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 06/19/2013 12:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >>> >>> We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where >>> various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those >>> proble

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: On 6/19/13 10:16 AM, Doug Barton wrote: It's not clear to me how this example relates to the IETF. Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or management positions are men. So again,

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 12:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote: We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those problems elsewhere corresponds to any actual problem within ou

Re: IETF Diversity

On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >> >> On 19/06/13 18:33, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >>> >>> Academia is still one of the worst environments for discrimination. >>> They don't have formal barriers as in the past but the informal >>> barriers are steep. >>> >> >> >> Relating

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 06/19/2013 11:40 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote: >> On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote: >>> On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse >

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 11:40 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote: On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote: On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote: Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse participation, we won't need "legislation" to fix the probl

Re: IETF Diversity

On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote: On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote: Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse participation, we won't need "legislation" to fix the problem. I'd like it if that were true but I don'

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or management positions are men. Everybody's got good intentions indeed, almost everyone claims that they are a better than average driver. ind

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 10:16 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > It's not clear to me how this example relates to the IETF. Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or management positions are men. Everybody's got good intentions - I'd be very surprised if

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote: Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse participation, we won't need "legislation" to fix the problem. I'd like it if that were true but I don't think it is. For example, the majori

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse > participation, we won't need "legislation" to fix the problem. I'd like it if that were true but I don't think it is. For example, the majority of academic librarians are women (one demo

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/19/2013 09:45 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil rights, etc. Yup. First the Civil Rights act, then Selma... ;) Yes

Re: IETF Diversity

> From: Melinda Shore > it's likely that for a few cycles nomcoms will try to be "sensitive" to > the question of the underrepresentation of women and then it will be > back to business as usual ... > It's unusual for people to voluntarily surrender their privilege. Yes, the

Re: IETF Diversity

On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates > have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil > rights, etc. Yup. First the Civil Rights act, then Selma... ;)

Re: IETF Diversity

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6/19/13 10:25 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: >>> On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: >> On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been >>> thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change >>> for a very long time

Re: IETF Diversity

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been >> thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change >> for a very long time. >

RE: IETF Diversity

...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:00 PM To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: IETF Diversity On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been > thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been > thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change for a > very long time. You made an assertion that's at least a little ahistorical, you used it to support an argument a

Re: IETF Diversity

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6/19/13 9:36 AM, Brian Haberman wrote: > On 6/19/13 11:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote: >>> On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that i

Re: IETF Diversity

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6/19/13 9:29 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 6/19/13 7:26 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: >>> Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal >>> mandates have typically led social change, at least when

Re: IETF Diversity

It is one thing to follow this practice of, for lack of a better word, ignorance, for yourself but to advocate it as a whole for the rest of the community to follow is probably not the optimal path when addressing the "diversity" conflicts. Everyone has a motive and interest in what they do, w

Re: IETF Diversity

I think all need mentoring. It is a both way learning for top and down levels. So maybe newcomer can be mentoring to management of what is a newcomer like these days :-) AB

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 11:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote: On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action. Members of the IESG,

Re: IETF Diversity

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the > > mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model > > for change. > > Don't know about that one

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote: > On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> >> My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive >> for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action. >> Members of the IESG, IAB, IOAC, or any other "official"

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 7:26 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: >> Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates >> have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil >> rights, etc. > That's a topic for the ietf-philosophy discussion list, m

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the >> mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model >> for change. > > Don't know about that one. In the US, at

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action. Members of the IESG, IAB, IOAC, or any other "official" body are just folks who are temporarily serving the com

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the > mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model > for change. Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates have typically led social ch

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 9:15 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 6/19/2013 8:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >>> On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF

Re: IETF Diversity

Commenting is already an action taken, so we thank who made effort to bring the points forward. I always add my comments even though I had given no title. However, thoes folks that have been given titles by the IETF I think they should do actions more regarding this diversity issue as Mr.Hallam-bak

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 6:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF >> constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain >> control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment >> so o

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/2013 8:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to mainta

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: >> Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF >> constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain >> control in their own hands. Peter

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment so of course h

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/18/2013 7:23 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: We created an IETF-TF in LACNOG; Arturo, Many thanks for the summary of efforts within the region; they sound quite promising. Just to be clear, my question was specifically concerning the activity of the IAOC that Jari cited. That effort

Re: IETF Diversity

On 19/06/13 14:44, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Aaron Yi DING > wrote: On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people come to thank me afterwards for

Re: IETF Diversity

Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment so of course he sees no structural problem. PSA's bee

Re: IETF Diversity

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote: > On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people > come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it > pontificating. > > > > sorry, just point it

Re: IETF Diversity

On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it pontificating. sorry, just point it out, sometimes you said it right, but that does not guarantee you

Re: IETF Diversity

Dave, We created an IETF-TF in LACNOG; as you we also think that only a meeting is not enough and along with ISOC, ccTLDs, LACNIC and other organizations we are trying to encourage and prepare more people to participate in the IETF by sending comments, reviewing documents and writing RFCs. The

Re: IETF Diversity

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > I am getting my ietf@ietf.org on my gmail account. > > I have no filters that delete mail, no mails with 'ietf' in them in my spam > folder and no copies of 80% of the mails to this list. That reads like you are missing 80% of the email distri

Re: IETF Diversity

I am getting my ietf@ietf.org on my gmail account. I have no filters that delete mail, no mails with 'ietf' in them in my spam folder and no copies of 80% of the mails to this list. On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 06/18/2013 07:42 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >

Re: IETF Diversity

Hi Phil, On 06/18/2013 02:08 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people > come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it > pontificating. > > I do however consider your own response to be an example of the type

Re: IETF Diversity

The issue was raised in the IETF plenary I would have expected mention of a followup mailing list to be made here on the ietf discussion list. Fair enough. I'm probably misunderstanding something basic here, because I thought there already was/is a list established: Diversity open ma

Re: IETF Diversity

On 06/18/2013 07:42 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 6/18/13 12:08 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > >> The issue was raised in the IETF plenary I would have expected mention >> of a followup mailing list to be made here on the ietf discussion list. > > Fair enough. Not quite. My local ietf@i

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/18/13 12:08 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people > come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it > pontificating. > > I do however consider your own response to be an example of the type of > exclusio

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/18/2013 10:17 AM, Jari Arkko wrote: Second, the IAOC has looked hard at the possibilities for reaching further out in the geographical world Jari, The only action that's been cited has been holding a meeting in that region. A number of us have posted comments suggesting that this i

Re: IETF Diversity

When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it pontificating. I do however consider your own response to be an example of the type of exclusionary behavior that I was talking about. Dismissing those conc

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/18/13, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the > diversity discussion that took place at the plenary. > I thought there are some people following/working this up, and made some progress. However, I agree that I seen no progress writte

Re: IETF Diversity

Phillip, For the record, there have been several ongoing efforts. First, there is a diversity design team. We expect some results from them before IETF-87, lets deal with those when they come. Second, the IAOC has looked hard at the possibilities for reaching further out in the geographical wor

Re: IETF Diversity

On 6/18/13 10:52 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > I am rather disappointed that there hasn't been any followup to the > diversity discussion that took place at the plenary. Speak for yourself. Some of us are taking concrete actions (e.g., recruiting people for document shepherd and WG chair roles

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

I was getting ready to send a note that basically said I give up when I saw this post from Randy. Thanks Randy. Then a friend posted this TED talk and it landed in my facebook feed. It gives me hope that there are a few men out there who might get the issue. I personally would love to see the I

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On Apr 30, 2013, at 4:53 PM 4/30/13, David Meyer wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. > -- bob dylan > > we do not need measurements to know the ietf is embarrassingly > non-diverse. it is derived fro

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. > -- bob dylan > > we do not need measurements to know the ietf is embarrassingly > non-diverse. it is derived from and embedded in an embarrassingly > non-diverse culture. > > we n

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. -- bob dylan we do not need measurements to know the ietf is embarrassingly non-diverse. it is derived from and embedded in an embarrassingly non-diverse culture. we need to do what we can to remedy this. progress not perfection is o

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

I think the statistics are very interesting and we should continue developing them, but we should also not be driven by them. I'll repeat again what I've said before: I can see increasing both participation diversity and leadership diversity being useful for the IETF. We are limited by various c

Re: [IETF] Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

- Original Message - From: "Warren Kumari" To: "Joe Abley" Cc: "Sam Hartman" ; ; Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 10:01 PM On Apr 29, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Joe Abley wrote: > > On 2013-04-29, at 16:49, Sam Hartman wrote: > >>> "Stewart" == Stewart Bryant writes: >> >> >> Stewart> Why

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

- Original Message - From: "Margaret Wasserman" To: "t.p." Cc: "Dan Harkins" ; Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:53 AM Hi Tom, On Apr 19, 2013, at 6:03 AM, t.p. wrote: > If we required the IETF to reflect the diversity of people who are, > e.g., IT network professionals, then the IETF wo

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

I was counting femal ADs. I ment no female names in the AD list apears (in my understandning I mybe wrong because in my culture some families name their memebrs with names that we cannot notice gender). As I am a remote participant I am not aware and may never notice difference. But I can refer now

Re: How does the IETF evolve to continue to be an effective, efficient, and relevant source of high quality Internet standards? Was: Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

At 13:15 29-04-2013, Michael StJohns wrote: Let me ask a couple of specific questions of you. I think that these are good questions. Who have you mentored in the past 5 years? Have they ended up as working group chairs, or ADs or IAB members? Do they mostly represent under-represented gr

Re: User Culture or Management (was Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?)

retransmited (not received at IETF or published) On 4/29/13, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > Hi Mike, > > (sorry for my long message, will try to improve) > > I like the concept and reasoning of your message, and would like to > add, is there other reasons for the results and conclusion your > message

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

> "Brian" == Brian E Carpenter writes: Brian> The null hypothesis would be that no significant differences Brian> exist. If that turns out to be true, we know that our Brian> problem is only lack of diversity among registrants. If it Brian> turns out to be false, we know tha

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On 30/04/2013 08:49, Sam Hartman wrote: ... > Statistical analysis is only useful if it's going to tell you something > that matters for your decision criteria. Yes. And I would like to know, in statistical terms, whether there are significant differences between (for example) the M/F ratios among

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

Mike: > Actually, I don't think this is even a mostly correct statement - > that AD select chairs. Dave: It is a long-standing, simple, objective, unvarying management fact of IETF procedure: ADs hire and fire wg chairs. Mike: >>> The AD's do have the final say. No question.

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On Mon, April 29, 2013 2:28 pm, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 4/29/2013 2:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> At 04:40 PM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: Actually, I don't think this is even a mostly correct statement - that AD select chairs. >>> >>> It is a long-standing, simple, objective, unva

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On 4/29/2013 2:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: At 04:40 PM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: Actually, I don't think this is even a mostly correct statement - that AD select chairs. It is a long-standing, simple, objective, unvarying management fact of IETF procedure: ADs hire and fire wg chairs.

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

At 04:40 PM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: >On 4/29/2013 12:04 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>At 01:34 AM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: >>Actually, I don't think this is even a mostly correct statement - >>that AD select chairs. > >It is a long-standing, simple, objective, unvarying management fact

Re: [IETF] Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On Apr 29, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Joe Abley wrote: > > On 2013-04-29, at 16:49, Sam Hartman wrote: > >>> "Stewart" == Stewart Bryant writes: >> >> >> Stewart> Why would you disregard a statistical analysis? That seems >> Stewart> akin to disregarding the fundamentals of science and >>

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On 2013-04-29, at 16:49, Sam Hartman wrote: >> "Stewart" == Stewart Bryant writes: > > >Stewart> Why would you disregard a statistical analysis? That seems >Stewart> akin to disregarding the fundamentals of science and > > Statistical analysis is only useful if it's going to tell

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

> "Stewart" == Stewart Bryant writes: Stewart> Why would you disregard a statistical analysis? That seems Stewart> akin to disregarding the fundamentals of science and Statistical analysis is only useful if it's going to tell you something that matters for your decision criteria. L

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On Mon, April 29, 2013 12:39 pm, Sam Hartman wrote: > For what it's worth, I'm not finding the current discussion is providing > me useful information for making decisions. It doesn't really matter to > me whether the problem is selection of WG chairs or selection of > IAB/IESG/IAOC after WG chai

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On 4/29/2013 12:04 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: At 01:34 AM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: Actually, I don't think this is even a mostly correct statement - that AD select chairs. It is a long-standing, simple, objective, unvarying management fact of IETF procedure: ADs hire and fire wg chairs.

How does the IETF evolve to continue to be an effective, efficient, and relevant source of high quality Internet standards? Was: Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

At 03:30 PM 4/29/2013, Margaret Wasserman wrote: >Hi Mike, > >On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> We have an IETF culture - like it or not. It changes over time, as the >> population changes. We can't and shouldn't expect to be able to change it >> by fiat, or to adopt as w

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

On 29/04/2013 20:39, Sam Hartman wrote: For what it's worth, I'm not finding the current discussion is providing me useful information for making decisions. It doesn't really matter to me whether the problem is selection of WG chairs or selection of IAB/IESG/IAOC after WG chairs are selected. I

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

For what it's worth, I'm not finding the current discussion is providing me useful information for making decisions. It doesn't really matter to me whether the problem is selection of WG chairs or selection of IAB/IESG/IAOC after WG chairs are selected. I think it is valuable to attempt to improv

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

Hi Mike, On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > We have an IETF culture - like it or not. It changes over time, as the > population changes. We can't and shouldn't expect to be able to change it by > fiat, or to adopt as whole cloth a bias free culture (for some values of > b

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

At 12:51 PM 4/29/2013, Melinda Shore wrote: >On 4/29/13 1:11 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> The other thing to remember is that whilst your proportional estimates >> are likely to be correct, in a random process you will get long runs of >> "bias" that only average out in the long run. > >Right, alt

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

At 01:57 AM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: >including such things as interaction (in)sensitivities, group tone and style, >and observable misbehaviors, all of which are likely to produce biasing >results. But in which direction? The same thing could be said of pushing personal or cultural biase

Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

At 01:34 AM 4/29/2013, Dave Crocker wrote: >On 4/28/2013 9:05 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>Let's consider for a moment that this may not actually be the correct >>question. Instead, consider "Why the diversity of the IETF leadership >>doesn't reflect the diversity of the set of the IETF WG chair

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