Re: Updated UNIX certification WAS: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Seymour wrote, in part: >Long term we'll all wind up on URF-8, and the old issues will be replaced by >ne ones. Ah, good ol' URF-8, "Universally Rejected Format". (Yes, I know it was a typo for UTF-8!) -- For IBM-MAIN subscri

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 6/5/23 23:19, kekronbekron wrote: Porting applications to Linux-s390x has never been particularly difficult. It starts getting hairy when attempts are made for vectorized apps, or other acceleration frameworks that are available for x86 Intel or AMD. Can't port all of them but maybe need to

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 6:26 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 5/6/2023 6:07 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: OTOH, benchmarks are tricky things, and it is often easy to get the answers you want by carefully cherrypicking the details. I suspect

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 6:26 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 5/6/2023 6:07 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > OTOH, benchmarks are tricky things, and it is often easy to get the answers > yo

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 5/6/2023 6:07 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: OTOH, benchmarks are tricky things, and it is often easy to get the answers you want by carefully cherrypicking the details. I suspect that QSAM really is faster for the test he ran. QSAM may have stood a chance against HFS but it has no chance again

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

5, 2023 11:44 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified Peter - I believe you'll find that the Co:Z folks, at coztoolkit.com, have tools that may provide the performance improvements that you are looking for. The ZIGI tool will take advantage of their getp

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

> Porting applications to Linux-s390x has never been particularly difficult. It starts getting hairy when attempts are made for vectorized apps, or other acceleration frameworks that are available for x86 Intel or AMD. Can't port all of them but maybe need to re-create them, to have the same cap

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Porting applications to Linux-s390x has never been particularly difficult. The biggest challenge has always been such things as endianness. Linux-s390x presents the same kernel interface to userland as Linux-i386. Porting to USS has (at least) two significant hurdles: EBCDIC and a different sy

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

ISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified Which is fine for those who have access to those tools; many of us do not have that luxury, nor the permission nor the disk space to "try them out" for ourselves. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On B

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

1:44 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified Peter - I believe you'll find that the Co:Z folks, at coztoolkit.com, have tools that may provide the performance improvements that you are looking for. The ZIGI tool will take advantage of their getpds and put

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter Sent: Monday, June 5, 2023 10:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified Where the performance of the USS file system falls down is in the transfer between z/OS files/data stores and USS fil

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

orough knowledge of the technical benefits and flaws of your system. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Monday, June 5, 2023 7:06 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified One compelling reason to embr

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

True, however, I expect it to at least be less difficult than it was in the past. Less difficult that it was with linux/s390x. Some of the key things IBM has done (and is doing) are LinuxONE community cloud, Wazi as a Service (on IBM cloud), and upstreaming LLVM and Golang bits. Icing on the cak

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 5/6/2023 7:42 pm, kekronbekron wrote: porting RocksDB Is zOS support upstreamed too, by any chance? The likelihood of the Meta maintainers accepting a z/OS patch PR is extremely low. Due to z/OS being a niche platform, maintainers tend to be hesitant in accepting patches unless they are s

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 5/6/2023 7:40 pm, kekronbekron wrote: Interestingly, it is worth noting that there are now numerous IBM z/OS products that embrace sqlite, with some even integrating it with HLASM. Hey David, Are you able to share the names of such products? You can just google "z/OS sqlite" and you'll ge

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

> porting RocksDB Is zOS support upstreamed too, by any chance? - KB --- Original Message --- On Monday, June 5th, 2023 at 4:35 PM, David Crayford wrote: > One compelling reason to embrace zFS is its potential for modernization > and facilitating the development of contemporary tools.

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

> Interestingly, it is worth noting that there are now numerous IBM z/OS > products that embrace sqlite, with some even integrating it with HLASM. Hey David, Are you able to share the names of such products? Has zOS support been upstreamed to SQLite? I don't remember seeing anything.. - KB

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

One compelling reason to embrace zFS is its potential for modernization and facilitating the development of contemporary tools. While acknowledging the significance of QSAM, VSAM KSDS, and other older technologies, it is crucial to recognize the advancements made in data structure formats for d

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

lf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 5, 2023 5:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 2/6/2023 11:31 pm, René Jansen wrote: > What I remember of it is that he was convinced it was a lot slower. He was mistaken! I've teste

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 2/6/2023 11:31 pm, René Jansen wrote: What I remember of it is that he was convinced it was a lot slower. He was mistaken! I've tested it out, and QSAM is no match for zFS. You can find the details in this gist: https://gist.github.com/daveyc/14b45d6d70d8dd9af1848e539d78881f. Adding an fs

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 10:32 René Jansen wrote: > What I remember of it is that he was convinced it was a lot slower. So I > told him that nobody forced him not to use QSAM for datasets just because > it ran in USS. And it think that is a great asset of it. Just because Unix > forces you to have a

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

What I remember of it is that he was convinced it was a lot slower. So I told him that nobody forced him not to use QSAM for datasets just because it ran in USS. And it think that is a great asset of it. Just because Unix forces you to have a hierarchical directory system does not mean, in USS,

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 2, 2023 10:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified Less interesting then what to call it, is how

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

muel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >> of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, June 2, 2023 9:42 AM

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

ayer" to me. > > > > > > -- > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 2, 2023 9:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified Haha. You said it. So you think OMVS and Cygwin are similar. LOLZ. > On 2 Jun 2023, at 21:33, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > That sure sound

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, June 2, 2023 1:06 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified > &

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

ay, June 2, 2023 1:06 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 2/6/2023 1:20 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > How do you think that IBM implemented HFS and zFS? It's all STARTIO under the > covers, the same as for, e.g., QSAM, VTAM. > > The same for

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

e 1, 2023 9:50 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 1/6/2023 9:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: It's a real Unix subsystem, but it certainly uses native services, e.g., STARTIO. How does STARTIO relate to a UNIX kernel? The Linux kernel operates on nearly

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

zCX has been out there for a few years now, how much is it being used for real work? Has is really taken business away from other platforms? Unless that happens it will just be another technical curiosity. mkk On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:33:12 +, kekronbekron wrote: >> I think K8s is the USS o

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

9:50 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 1/6/2023 9:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > It's a real Unix subsystem, but it certainly uses native services, e.g., > STARTIO. How does STARTIO relate to a UNIX kernel? The Linux kernel operates on nearly

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Well, the containers / stack is almost creating a virtual machine like z/VM. Not quite there, but close. On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 9:27 AM kekronbekron <02dee3fcae33-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > What I don't get is OpenShift running inside zCX, which is most definitely a > product

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Conceptually, it should be thought of as the mainframe equivalent of Windows Subsystem for Linux or Windows Subsystem for Android. Yes, a whole new OS runs inside... as a subsystem, with tight integration to Windows (zOS in our case). - KB --- Original Message --- On Thursday, June 1st,

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

What I don't get is OpenShift running inside zCX, which is most definitely a product or an offering. What I meant is that if zOS can essentially run linux inside zCX, why not just upgrade USS to LSS, and let containers run 'bare' in LSS. It can save money (zIIP offload), maybe... but at what (co

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 6/1/23 09:36, David Crayford wrote:    ... OMVS is a real UNIX subsystem running on z/OS. It's not a shim or abstraction layer on top of native services. agreed! no argument here -- R; <>< -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / si

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

stems. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2023 9:36 AM To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/O

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

l.com] Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2023 9:36 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On 1/6/2023 9:22 pm, Rick Troth wrote: > On 6/1/23 06:27, Matt Hogstrom wrote: >> Similar experience. Not sure if its the same person but I had >> dinner with Jeff

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 1/6/2023 9:22 pm, Rick Troth wrote: On 6/1/23 06:27, Matt Hogstrom wrote: Similar experience.   Not sure if its the same person but I had dinner with Jeff Nick (former Felllow with Z) and his story was that they needed Posix to meet a Federal requirement.   He also said that it was contenti

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Maybe your missing the point of zCX. Nobody expects to run big distributed stacks as that would be dumb. Distributed software is designed to run on commodity hardware that can fail, hence the CAP theorem and RAFT protocols. zCX can save customers money https://ibm-messaging.github.io/mqperf/MQ%

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 6/1/23 06:27, Matt Hogstrom wrote: Similar experience. Not sure if its the same person but I had dinner with Jeff Nick (former Felllow with Z) and his story was that they needed Posix to meet a Federal requirement. He also said that it was contentious internally and so they assembled a

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

> I think K8s is the USS of yesteryear Sad noises... I would like to see zOS native containers integrated directly to WLM instead. WLM is literally the workload manager. It may not make sense for it to do everything k8s does, but could maybe do what consul or docker swarm does? Me stomach turns

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Similar experience. Not sure if its the same person but I had dinner with Jeff Nick (former Felllow with Z) and his story was that they needed Posix to meet a Federal requirement. He also said that it was contentious internally and so they assembled a team and isolated them from the others s

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

I've worked with a few ex-OE guys, including my close colleague who used to the IBM DE running the OE project out of POK. Let me tell you, some of the stories they have are absolutely fascinating! It's my understanding that the POSIX certification was mainly pursued to meet the requirements set

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

] Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 12:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified It was 1995. I remember because I was particularly enthused about the advent of "OpenEdition" on MVS and on VM. It was ironic, and a bit of a hoot, that other Unix systems (e.g.

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On Wed, 31 May 2023 15:57:19 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: >... >Reasonable compromise ... it would seem so. >IBM are such sticklers for the rules. What really *is*fork() and what >does Unix do on systems without virtual memory? >

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On 5/31/23 15:48, Phil Smith III wrote: Gil wrote: OpenVM fork()? It's unforgivable that OpenVM provides something it calls "fork", but which is not. Heh. When that came out, I got a bunch of Taco Bell sporks, drilled holes in them so I could hang them from paper clips, and handed them out at

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Gil wrote: >OpenVM fork()? It's unforgivable that OpenVM provides >something it calls "fork", but which is not. Heh. When that came out, I got a bunch of Taco Bell sporks, drilled holes in them so I could hang them from paper clips, and handed them out at SHARE to the VM crowd to dangle off ba

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On Wed, 31 May 2023 12:19:19 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: >... >In spite of the caveats, USS was (is) an excellent implementation. >OpenVM too! > OpenVM fork()? It's unforgivable that OpenVM provides something it calls "fork", but which is not. -- gil ---

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

It was 1995. I remember because I was particularly enthused about the advent of "OpenEdition" on MVS and on VM. It was ironic, and a bit of a hoot, that other Unix systems (e.g., Slolaris, HPUX, even AIX) did not have the same certification. There were two problems. First, USS was kinda slow f

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

The Linux kernel was at one time explicitly POSIX compliant. Lately, I have not seen that banner in the console output nor from 'dmesg'. -- R; <>< On 5/26/23 18:48, Mike Schwab wrote: I think MVS/ESA Unix was certified to posix standard for U.S government contracts. Somebody paid for Linux

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On Sun, 28 May 2023 01:55:17 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >Federal government contracts. > Which is silly because the gossip at the time was that whenever anyone challenged a Windows purchase order on the basis of POSIX deviance, the riposte was, "Close enough!" Perhaps desktops were granted an i

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Federal government contracts. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Tony Harminc Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 9:40 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 15:30, Radoslaw Skorupka

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

I think MVS/ESA Unix was certified to posix standard for U.S government contracts. Somebody paid for Linux to get the same certification about the same era. Most Linuxes are not certified. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/522413/why-are-most-linux-distributions-not-posix-compliant On Fr

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

FSF and Linux can reasonably be ignored in this discussion but was there a time when Unix System Services (of z/OS or OS/390) was competitor to other platforms that claimed to be UNIX? How many third party apps were available / supported / marketed for USS as against AIX, HPUX or Solaris? How ma

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

IMHO Unix certification is not particularly relevant these days … it’s Linux tool chain compatibility that is. I spend time frequently having to adjust to old “Unix” utilities and command line arguments that are not supported (grep -r anyone?) A refresh of the toolchain and open source langu

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Ah, ok, "since before GA". Cool. thanks. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 15:30, Radoslaw Skorupka < 0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: [...] > Not to defend Timothy or z/OS :-) Indeed... :-) > To be contentious: nowadays nobody cares. Indeed, when we talk about > non-Windows distributed system we usually think about Linux.

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

W dniu 26.05.2023 o 15:02, Phil Smith III pisze: Timothy Sipples wrote: z/OS 3.1 has already earned its UNIXR certification... https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3693.htm Not tryna be contentious, just honestly confused: "already"? As opposed to what? I.e., what makes this an "a

Re: z/OS 3.1: Now UNIXR Certified

Timothy Sipples wrote: >z/OS 3.1 has already earned its UNIXR certification... >https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3693.htm Not tryna be contentious, just honestly confused: "already"? As opposed to what? I.e., what makes this an "already"? --