> > Attached is a PDF showing the differences. If you zoom
> > in, you can see that the \[lq] in IBM Courier, which is
> > bottom-heavy (like the \[lq] in Times), is not the same
> > as \[rq] in Adobe Courier, which is top-heavy.
>
> I get that, but by using \[lq] and \[rq] you end up with a
>
On Sat Dec 21, 2024 at 1:29 AM CET, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
> > From that message I get the impression that your claim of
> > \[Bq] and \[lq] being "terrible advice" was quite overstated;
> > it seems to come down to a small number of bad typefaces.
>
> Are they, though? Even in English, there exis
> From that message I get the impression that your claim of
> \[Bq] and \[lq] being "terrible advice" was quite overstated;
> it seems to come down to a small number of bad typefaces.
Are they, though? Even in English, there exist different styles
of quote characters, as exemplified by IBM's vs
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 10:54 PM CET, onf wrote:
> Let's say I want to check out the need method of curdiv.
> To do that, I first need to figure out what object it is.
> Searching for curdiv eventually reveals it being declared
> in div.cpp as type `diversion`. Searching for diversion::need
> then f
Hi Branden,
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 7:13 PM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-12-20T13:59:13+0100, onf wrote:
> > [...]
> > I kinda get where they are coming from with C++, though. Last time I
> > tried patching groff, I was fascinated by the stark difference between
> > groff's and neatro
Hi Branden,
On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 11:42:38AM GMT, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > As GNU make(1) maintainer says (IIRC), don't write portable Makefiles,
> > write GNU Makefiles, and port GNU make(1).
>
> These days the maintainer is Paul Smith. I don't know if he said that
> originally,
Here's
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 8:18 PM CET, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
> > In any case, as far as I know, \[Bq] and \[lq] is the way to
> > obtain German-style quotes in groff. If you know of a better
> > way, tell me, please.
>
> We had a discussion on this topic some time ago on this list, see
>
> https://
> In any case, as far as I know, \[Bq] and \[lq] is the way to
> obtain German-style quotes in groff. If you know of a better
> way, tell me, please.
We had a discussion on this topic some time ago on this list, see
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2007-08/msg00115.html
The problem
Hi onf,
At 2024-12-20T13:59:13+0100, onf wrote:
> > [...] Before the BSD community decided upon the performative
> > wokeness of rabid allergies to copyleft and (at OpenBSD at least)
> > C++.
>
> I kinda get where they are coming from with C++, though. Last time I
> tried patching groff, I was f
Hi Alex,
At 2024-12-20T12:11:00+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2024 at 09:31:49PM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > For some vendors, the end of the Unix Wars meant the end of
> > development. Lay off all the engineers and collect rents from
> > locked-in enterprise deployme
Hi Doug,
Thanks for considering my proposal. I see that I've not done the best
job documenting the problems of the status quo, and that even with that,
my solution may not suffice to address them.
At 2024-12-20T10:00:25-0500, Douglas McIlroy wrote:
> > * People may discover that quotation marks
> * People may discover that quotation marks are properly available in
> the man(7) language, a fact that has been obscure for 45 years. (The
> `\*(lq` and `\*(rq` syntax has been available since day one [1979]. I
> suspect these failed because man page authors who weren't already
> pract
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 2:38 PM CET, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
> > so that English users get \[lq] and \[rq] while German users
> > get \[Bq] and \[lq] etc.
>
> That is terrible advice. While the "English left quote" in
> Times is identical to the "German right quote" in Times, this
> is not true for
> so that English users get \[lq] and \[rq] while German users
> get \[Bq] and \[lq] etc.
That is terrible advice. While the "English left quote" in
Times is identical to the "German right quote" in Times, this
is not true for Courier. It would be much better to define
"German left quote" and
Hi Branden,
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 4:57 AM CET, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-12-20T02:21:00+0100, onf wrote:
> > I assume the reason for using the strings `lq` and `rq` instead of
> > characters of the same name is that the strings can be defined
> > differently based on the current locale
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 12:11 PM CET, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> [...] As GNU make(1) maintainer says (IIRC),
> don't write portable Makefiles, write GNU Makefiles, and port GNU
> make(1).
That sounds like terrible advice. :)
Hi Branden,
On Thu, Dec 19, 2024 at 09:31:49PM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > I prefer \[lq] and \[rq] over .QS and .QE.
>
> If everybody just used groff (please feel free to start!), I wouldn't
> bother with this proposal, for that precise reason. My proposal is
> stimulated in part by e
Hi onf,
On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 02:21:00AM +0100, onf wrote:
> Hi Alejandro,
>
> On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 12:39 AM CET, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > I prefer \[lq] and \[rq] over .QS and .QE. BTW, that's that '*' mean?
>
> That's string interpolation syntax. From groff(7):
>
> Strings
> gr
Hi onf,
At 2024-12-20T02:21:00+0100, onf wrote:
> I assume the reason for using the strings `lq` and `rq` instead of
> characters of the same name is that the strings can be defined
> differently based on the current locale,
If so, that was pretty forward-looking for Berkeley in 1980.
> so that
Hi Alex,
At 2024-12-20T00:39:19+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 08:00:53PM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > Synopsis:
> >
> > .QS [suppress-initial-word-hyphenation?]
> >Begin quotation. An opening quotation mark is formatted.
> >The line is not brok
Hi Alejandro,
On Fri Dec 20, 2024 at 12:39 AM CET, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> I prefer \[lq] and \[rq] over .QS and .QE. BTW, that's that '*' mean?
That's string interpolation syntax. From groff(7):
Strings
groff supports strings primarily for user convenience.
Conventionally, if one
Hi Branden,
On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 08:00:53PM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> Synopsis:
>
> .QS [suppress-initial-word-hyphenation?]
>Begin quotation. An opening quotation mark is formatted. The
>line is not broken. The optional argument is a Boolean value
>(“0” or
[self-correcting follow-up]
At 2024-12-18T20:00:53-0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> Pro:
> * People may discover that quotation marks are properly available in
> the man(7) language, a fact that has been obscure for 45 years.
> (The `\*(lq` and `\*(rq` syntax has been available since day one
Hi Dave & Alex,
I started out off-topic and then wandered back onto it. To remedy
that, I've moved the on-topic part to the top of this message. Replies
to your messages follow below.
There seems to be no objection to the core proposal (so far). Nobody
addressed the initial-word-hyphenation-su
Hi Dave,
On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 02:48:35PM -0600, Dave Kemper wrote:
> One final point unrelated to the macro names:
>
> > B2. It would be trivial to support the British, who use the wrong
> > quotation marks^W^W^W^W^Wdrive on the wrong side of the
> > road^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^Whave a differen
On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 8:28 AM G. Branden Robinson
wrote:
> I don't feel I have sufficiently broad knowledge of what man-parsing
> tools are out there besides *roffs and mandoc(1).
Fair enough, and perhaps a decent reason on its own to be conservative
with language additions.
> Plan 9 troff is
Hi Dave & Alex,
I guess I'd better firm this up a bit.
Synopsis:
.QS
Begin quotation. An opening quotation mark is formatted. The
line is not broken.
.QE
End quotation. A closing quotation mark is formatted. The line
is not broken.
At 2024-12-15T23:30:27-0600, D
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