of the
scripts there use AWK. Some design flows use Make. gEDA can export netlist data
to many tools, but of course you'd need the tool in question to actually use
this capability.
gEDA is *not* a self-contained system. Hurray for that!
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://ww
th demands for *anything*, but we
> do recognize the need for windows support and we *are* working on it.
I don't see that as a developer responsibility, but I'm all for it, especially
if you guys can sustain it. The problem with past Windows binaries is that
they've been one
kage maintainers (real heroes!) who do the work of
ferreting out incompatibilities and creating the binaries. That kind of
community effort has not taken hold in the Windows world.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
__
provide some hints, examples or links?
Shouldn't be too hard. ngspice seems to have no limit to the length of a PWL
spec. Put the audio in some simple form (like raw binary samples), write a tiny
program to convert to PWL. Generate output with .PRINT, write another tiny
program to convert to bin
rson did when he created his great
tutorial, even though he was an insider.
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evel of
toolkit use, I don't think so. The developers appear to to be focused on a
small subset of gEDA's broad application space.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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ttracted me to gEDA nine years ago was its concise
documentation (at that time). I hate time-wasting complexity. The original
concise documentation is still there, but it's lost in the fog.
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ectronic substitute for a drafting board.
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acs, netbooks, ...) the Fn keys require an unusual shift key to be
pressed. That would be particularly inconvenient for functions like "start
drawing a net", that initiate graphical operations. "n" is very nice in that
case: I
: a detailed model of the field
configuration is needed if you need to be more quantitative.
The same physics leads to the concept of "skin depth".
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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urrent brake?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake
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ent slots.
Slots are for when the modules are identical, and you want gEDA to assign the
pins for you based on the slot number. That's not what you want here.
> What am I
> missing?
Symbols with the same refdes represent parts of the same physical component. So
all you need t
ints, specialized processing scripts, etc.
> Handles making hierarchic
> schematics so elements can be repeated by schematic page instances placed
> once.
This also facilitates reuse of parts of old schematics in new designs.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noq
eactivate it, you can put the line:
(magnetic-net-mode "disabled")
in your project's gschemrc or in ~/.gEDA/gschemrc.
Posted to all contributors to this thread due to immoderate behavior by the
"moderators".
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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able "feature" in thousands of
pages of documentation. gEDA's unique in that respect. Another unique
capability is the way it plays nicely with foreign tools, at multiple levels.
Hurray for gEDA!
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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_
On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:56 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:
> Seems like I can't ping to gedasymbols.org since last night. Is the server
> located in an area affected by the Irene storm?
Yes. New Hampshire.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j..
pin numbers didn't agree between the two packages.
Yep. I recently got bit by this with the LT1078 opamp (different pinouts in
DIP8 and SO8).
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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schematic capture tools to
get to simulation.
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On Aug 26, 2011, at 12:28 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 08/23/2011 11:20 PM, John Doty wrote:
>>> This seems like a pretty serious issue; can anyone shed a little light on
>>> it?
>>
>> Absolutely mysterious. I've never seen behavior like this and I cannot
vantage that it gets you to a
well-defined destination efficiently. But if you want to go anywhere else in
the future, it's trouble. Bottom-up design is more appropriate if you want
unlimited horizons.
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olkit. Keep the tools separate. Keep the interfaces
clean and simple. Maximize the rewards that those who can do a little scripting
can earn. Let KiCad cover the integrated app space.
It would be useful to be able to import KiCad schematics, so that when users
are ready for the more powerful
rary.
>
> This seems like a pretty serious issue; can anyone shed a little light on it?
Absolutely mysterious. I've never seen behavior like this and I cannot
reproduce it using your procedure.
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similar roles. Sometimes I have strong pressures to keep the parts list short,
so I'll choose general-purpose components and use them in multiple roles. Other
times, I'm optimizing more. With project evolution and design reuse, these
scenarios can become very entangled.
a at gedasymbols.org, you'll find symbols for
VLSI design and symbolic circuit analysis. Those won't work for pcb.
But they're useful for their intended purposes.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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was really needed in a specific situation at the telescope. The
crude, ugly Forth system proved more resilient: it let the observer compose
what was really needed on the spot, so the observers continued to use it (to my
dismay, because I didn't want to keep supporting it).
John
hing" more often.
But what the right thing is depends on personal style and institutional
conventions.
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http://w
partslist back ends. How would you like it
to work?
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t interface is thus very stable: changes would
be difficult to coordinate.
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sensible way, so I mostly
find myself holding down control when using it, so I can add midpoints in the
right places.
The gschem UI is very efficient with its single key "switch modes *and* start
an action" single-key accelerators. Please keep these intact.
John Doty
e had at least figured out the nature of the mess they were in, and were
able to take some steps toward fixing it, but they didn't have a truly solid
foundation until MacOSX.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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chine of choice if I'm in the office.
The totalitarian regularity of Mac applications is convenient for general
desktop use, but not necessary. As Apple's hostility to users (as opposed to
passive consumers) appears to be on the rise, it is likely that I will be
phasing out the Mac in
tware design
avoids such trivial special-case features. They just add to the fog.
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ometimes
annoyingly expensive in one way or another.
>
> But of course, there are zillions of ways of doing it, it's up to the
> designer to pick what's best for their needs.
Agreed.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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ould easily pay for the logic
> chips, and you could add in some safety features and debouncing for
> free.
>
> Then dump the relay and use a power MOSFET :-)
Yep.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com
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having
to adapt your job to the tool.
Have a look at gedasymbols.org for a smorgasbord of user-contributed symbols,
footprints, and tools.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com
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ry conceivable use case? Surely, you are
> joking.
Well, of course when releasing such a thing you'd accompany it with default
scripts for gschem and gnetlist that would reproduce current behavior. I
certainly have no interest in breaking my existing projects.
John Doty
se are things
that *cannot* be done correctly with a single approach for every case, so the
flexibility offered by scripting is needed.
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On Jul 19, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Josh Jordan wrote:
>We could spite them by implementing all of their features.
Shudder. A powerful toolkit should not be copying features from consumer
software.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.
serve angles, the operation of selecting an arc
from an ellipse by angle does not commute with stretching. Thus, your example.
This is closely related to math that confused the great genius Johannes Kepler
for quite a while. We're still somewhat burdened by artifacts of his path to
understan
On Jul 14, 2011, at 12:00 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Technically, what we have is *not* an ellipse - it's a stretched arc.
?
The linear "stretching" transformation (x', y') = (a*x, b*y) applied to a
circle yields an ellipse whose axes are parallel to the
required when you use net=
attributes.
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;
> This script generates a .sch file that contains connectivity data, but no
> useful graphics. The input is a trivial TSV representation of a netlist.
>
> Given a parser for the input netlist format(s), the same approach could be
> used to merge netl
rge netlists from other sources. Of course, the parser is the difficult
part.
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Actually, UTF-8 attributes (names and values) work fine with Guile 1.8-based
gEDA. The clever design of UTF-8 makes code intended for ASCII "just work" so
long as it doesn't need to pick wide characters out of a string.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http
t the offset of the symbol within the schematic is stored
(it's needed to generate the "C" record in the schematic file). Subtract that
from the coordinates in the instance to make a proper sym file.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com
> how to go about it.
> I'd like to use the op-amp symbol in gschem and have gnetlist
> include/refer to the spice model. Is there a tutorial/document that
> describes the steps?
http://www.brorson.com/gEDA/SPICE/intro.html
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Lt
nd then place that symbol in its own over-the-top schematic.
That's good for simulation, too.
Or, you can make component symbols representing pads. That's what I do: see
http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/john_doty/symbols/openIP/02-pads.html
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd
11/msg00399.html), but as far as I
know they haven't made it to the official documentation.
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nect them explicitly between levels if that's required.
Use (hierarchy-netname-mangle "disabled") and (hierarchy-uref-mangle
"disabled") only if *every* subcircuit has distinct schematics.
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> specifying the general type of the symbol (e.g., “RS-485 TRANSCEIVER”),
> and add value= as a visible attribute (for most types of symbols, such
> as connectors and ICs) giving the specific device (e.g., “SP3075E”).
There is no universal convention in gEDA practice for what the "devi
end *almost* works to list them, except that
(gnetlist:get-all-package-attributes) doesn't actually get all package
attributes, only one per symbol instance.
gnet-list-net-pins.scm
Description: Binary data
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.co
On Jun 3, 2011, at 2:09 AM, Peter Brett wrote:
> John Doty writes:
>
>> On Jun 1, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Peter Brett wrote:
>>
>>> John Doty writes:
>>>
>>>> On May 31, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Peter Brett wrote:
>>>
>>>>> T
oose a light symbol ;-)
Seriously, I don't think it's the responsibility of a tool to hide unnecessary
complexity introduced at a lower level. It makes more sense to me to build up
complex things from simple things, rather than the other way around.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospa
On Jun 2, 2011, at 4:54 AM, Colin D Bennett wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:41:13 +0900
> John Doty wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 1, 2011, at 1:30 AM, Colin D Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> Power and ground connections are a critical part of the circuit
>>> de
On Jun 1, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Peter Brett wrote:
> John Doty writes:
>
>> On May 31, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Peter Brett wrote:
>
>>> This script deliberately poisons the netlist.
>>
>> Exactly. This is consistent with other gnetlist behavior. If no
>>
symbols.org/user/john_doty/tools/pins2gsch.html
In production use at Noqsi Aerospace.
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g them explicitly in the schematic could be considered
distracting clutter.
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ios. It results in a grab-bag of features without a foundation.
>
> I didn't expect *everything* to be read in *exactly*.
I expect everything to be parsed into a data structure, from which the input
could be reconstructed if necessary, but which is also suitable as input to
processing func
mand line parsing is thoroughly encrusted with barnacles: it gets
in the way more than it helps. The other stuff is scripted in Scheme, and it
seems to me that it would be much cleaner and simpler if it wasn't dependent on
the core C code.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
htt
oaded. That would allow this redefinition to be
specified in a configuration file, but performed at the right time.
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representation as
S-expressions. A list of objects, each potentially attached to a list of
objects, ...
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bother
> with connectivity, but ask for additional attribute processing. Etc.
>
> This way, we can centralize a lot of the common tasks, without forcing
> those decisions on the backends.
Yes! Put plugins and back ends in control.
OK, I think we now have a nice creative rivalry between S
language advocates here is to prototype a fundamental API that reveals all, in
a way convenient for higher level factors to exploit.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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ook: it's fundamental to this class of language.
Composition.
>
> This feature, for exmaple, allows us to encode a complete gEDA project
> (sch+pcb+whatever) in a single perl variable!
No problem doing that in Python. Or even ECD BASIC in 1978.
>
> But as they s
rs to do this in Python?
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Based on feedback from Kai-Martin, here's an improved version:
censor-fix.scm
Description: Binary data
On May 26, 2011, at 4:58 PM, John Doty wrote:
> Folks,
>
> The "attribute censorship bug" is what I call the problem that given a refdes
> that corresponds t
[writer]->(schematics)
However, it's written in Haskell. While that is certainly a "more modern
language" than Scheme, I fear that if I were to advocate it to this group
somebody would arrange a meeting for me with the Yakuza in a dark Tokyo alley
;-)
> I'm a P
, so please report any problems. And, of course, you're
welcome to change its behavior to suit your flow. It requires at least version
1.7.0.
censor-fix.scm
Description: Binary data
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
f the slot assignments (because
it can now see all of the slotdef attributes, not just the first one). The
refactored code is present in 1.7.0. So I think I can continue to prototype in
Scheme.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com
__
t;, it will be a very big job
indeed. I don't think it can ever be done in a satisfactory way from that
direction.
Refactoring could also enable plug-ins to implement some other things I believe
you'd like, such as electrically significant busses.
John Doty
On May 24, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Peter Clifton wrote:
> the fact that actions are made from
> shell script fragments is somewhat irrelevant.
I think it's highly relevant, because it means that anyone familiar with shell
commands has a head start understanding what's goin
to work on their design, not
> learn how to use our tools. Many of them don't even know a shell
> window exists.
They don't automate. There's a place for that. But what makes gED*A* *uniquely*
powerful is its friendliness to automation.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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negative experience. I have no desire
to descend into the Mines of Moria again. Who is brave enough?
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e. Programmers are supposed to hide
information regardless of its importance to the user these days, so they
"fixed" IB to directly and invisibly create archived objects in a fully
initialized state. The result was that what had been clear became mysterious,
and you had to be much more
package in layout without having to change the schematics
> first.
What about packages with duplicate pins, e.g. both 2 and 4 are drain?
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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tty well with it. Of course,
"make" is old-fashioned and rather crude. It's easy to create something
prettier, but it's very hard to create something that works better.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
s. gEDA has a huge "dynamic range" in application scale, so there
are going to be things that work well in some contexts but not in others.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
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the organization
sufficiently comprehensible that the script can be constructed to penetrate it
without human help. This is exactly why GUI so commonly poisons scripting,
because GUI is generally designed to facilitate human interaction, not avoid it.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://
d earlier, and I'm
really glad I did: the folks on the other sides of the interfaces kept changing
pin assignments, and a table is much easier to fix than a drawing.
So, already, for me the schematics themselves don't completely define a design,
at least in my "big project&q
having a manufacturer's part number in them, or some keyword
> that says that it "is" ("purpose=bypass-cap" for example), with all
> the other information added by gnetlist.
I do believe we are in agreement.
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rio. Consider transition from breadboard to
prototype to production. A top-level schematic might not change, even though
attributes of parts might change (different packages, tighter specs, ...). In
that case, the instance-specific data can't be in *any* schematic.
John Doty Noqsi Aeros
Once embedded, they aren't instances of a common symbol any more. Common
(heavy) symbols are useful as containers for common project-specific attributes.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
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art.
This work demonstrates that gEDA is much more capable than the impression you'd
get there.
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#x27;m all for moving everything possible out of the core. The scripter doesn't
want to be blocked by unnecessary barriers.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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guess would be even more of a barrier than Scheme. It is,
however, in production use at Noqsi and Osaka, creating flattened schematics
for documentation. Consider it "proof of concept" for an annotation tool.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com
six years, now, and it's
wonderful to see it all built and plugged together.
So, thank you to all who made this possible. It's a beautiful morning.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
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ge
knaak/symbols")
^
Should be:
(component-library-search
"/home/kmk/geda/gedasymbols/www/user/kai_martin_knaak/symbols")
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
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enty of times in the past, but it bears repeating -
> we want the common uses to be easy, and the uncommon uses to be
> possible.
Easy is a personal judgement.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com
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years in my gafrc files. "Components" is a directory containing directories
of symbols. I can't remember where I learned about this.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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livered. The libs should not suggest
> completeness where thay can only provide a (good) starting point.
It isn't so much the libs, as the lib browser, which sends the selected part
straight to the schematic, thus giving the user the false impression that
th
scheme/gnetlist-post.scm
These are fairly comprehensible, and somewhat commented, although I know of at
least one developer who is deeply offended by the silliness of some of the
comments.
And the wiki contains more tutorial-style stuff. So, is it really that bad?
John Doty Noqsi A
But after the initial shock it wasn't too bad.
Indeed. It's easier than it looks.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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j...@noqsi.com
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A narrowly targeted, inflexible tool like Eagle can maybe, kind
of, but that's not gEDA.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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ion: the back end receives
the data in very conveniently digested form.
gnet-osmond.scm
Description: Binary data
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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http:
ability between Noqsi and Osaka U. environments for
this particular project. So, as a demo, it's not so great, even though its
organization is a tremendous timesaver for us.
But by all means, take a look at it if you want.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd
r need to use GUI at all to
make data products like netlists, BOM, simulation outputs, and documentation.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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one of the approaches I had in mind when I wrote:
> General-purpose IPC is complex, fragile, and always less flexible than
> intended.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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ve done GUIs that wrap scripts, but it only works in very simple, shallow
cases. An API that supports GUI well is very different from an API that
supports scripting well.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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mple, and avoids the minefield of integration.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
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ograms.
Specialized IPC is good in its place. General-purpose IPC is complex, fragile,
and always less flexible than intended.
---
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
This message contains technical discussion involving difficult issues. No
personal disrespect or malice is intended. If you
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