Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

The gross failure of the Deep State here is strong evidence it is a myth. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 6:24 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

As the whitelash thing works itself out over the next few decades, hopefully our machine siblings will find a way to manage the infestation. Like Robot Wars in reverse. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 8:34 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject:

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Hi, All, Some;body on this thread suggested that I read the recent article on whale communication research in Hah-Vud Mag. It was interesting, but it left me screaming and beating the magazine with my fists in many places. If anybody would like to chat about it, I am here for that. Two comment

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Ok, here’s another example. My dog paws at me when I’m sitting on the couch. At first it appeared to be an expression of affection. Then I realized what she really wanted: Move and give her the space.She did the same thing with her male sibling (a dog), and he would get rattled and wa

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

My goal, which I admit is developing on the fly, is to seek commonalty in our thinking about consciousness by exploring and perhaps adjusting our usage of terms with respect to common day to day experiences with potentially conscious others. For instance: I think you said early on that you did no

Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

Nick - I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I am beginning to sense method in my madness. I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central creatures in my household. I notice you are mu

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Great example. The difference between affection is resolved by other experiences that precede, go with, and follow on the scratching. in that connection, can I be an asshole and quibble with you use of the term "express". As a metaphor, it implies that the affection lurks somewhere under the

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

It shows that one can have a prior, and modify it based on other evidence. I do not have another explanation for why she would offer her paw to be held when driving. “Offer” means she repeatedly taps me with it until I hold it, then she licks me once on the cheek. From: Friam On Behalf

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Another fabulous example. Sad to say, I have never held hands with a dog. Nick On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:13 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > It shows that one can have a prior, and modify it based on other > evidence. I do not have another explanation for why she would offer her > paw to be held

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Also, with humans, I have mistakenly read kindness where there was none, and hostility where there as none. From: Friam On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 10:21 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciou

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

So sad! https://www.tiktok.com/@itsgatsbytime/video/7271730952144014635?is_from_webapp=1 &sender_device=pc From: Friam On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 10:21 AM T

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated? -- Russ On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen wrote: > Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think more in > Marcus' terms and c

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

More likely it would just change the risk/reward calculation, not be an overt act of violence. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:17 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance It's pretty hard for me to see how th

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

A president who murders his opponents would not be better than an evil dictator in an authoritarian state. Putin's opponents like Navalny, Litvinenko and Nemtsov were all brutally poisoned and/or murdered.But you are right, this possibility exists after the recent decision of the supreme court.

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

I don’t think that’s fair. It depends on the opponent and what they represent both in terms of ideology and the sociological phenomenon they are a part of. From: Friam On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:52 AM To: russ.abb...@gmail.com; The Friday Morning Applied Compl

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

These are fascinating. Particularly, the attempt to displace you from the couch. Each of you chooses alternative means to convey your experience of the other. In the end, you seem to compromise without actually understanding one another. If you would like to go over it frame by frame, I am your m

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

There’s a large black male dog at the dog park with a very large red chew ball that it brings every day. It won’t share the ball with any dog. Abby is infuriated by this and would mercilessly attack him using her cattle dog speed and smarts until he yielded (if she were allowed). Wanting a

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Dear Jochen, I don't think our disagreement has anything to do with your command of English which is probably more elegant than my own. I think it has to do with how far we follow Descartes. For me, all voices are either inside or outside. There is no inside/outside distinction to be made. I

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

So, wanting the ball is a behavioral structure that we both could see and discuss. It occurs over time and is not occasion specific. It's important to distinguish between anthropomorphism and anecdotalism. I guess what I am arguing for is a kind of critical anecdotalism in which we line up our u

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Somehow this reminds me of the old joke, "Heavenly Father, how do I know that I exist?" "And who is asking?" Seriously, I used to say to Nick that my consciousness is the first thing that I know and the only thing that I know exists with absolute certainty. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Fe

Re: [FRIAM] Joscha Bach claims Microsoft sentient but not conscious

My litany of examples of entities in my life all share the fact of "living in a bubble of nowness".   The fact that those bubbles overlap to different degrees seems to contribute to our "mutual" apprehension of one another's consciousness (not symmetric). The non-animal entities at the best pr

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

As the whitelash thing works itself out over the next few decades, I listened to JD Vance's interviews when he was first on his "Hillbilly Elegy" booktour back whenever (2015?) and was hopeful for him.   I thought he was bringing some type of visibility and healthy response to the stigmergi

Re: [FRIAM] Joscha Bach claims Microsoft sentient but not conscious

On 7/16/24 4:29 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: A bit paradox: consciousness and language enable us to leave the bubble of nowness in which animals live I like this, reminded that the bubble of nowness and hereness (and thusness of our umwelt?), is transcended and transferable via language. I think

Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

I have always assumed that is an exercise in asserting dominance. Who is boss? Might it be me? Many years ago, when I was curious about blue Weimaraners, having bumped into a pair in Santa Fe, I went to read “The Weim Page” (not the AKC breed page, but in that direction). I remember a nicely

Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all that. -- Russ