Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

May I dissent? It is CRITICAL to understand WHY a language was advanced, what it was INTENDED to do. Absent this knowledge you will almost certainly fail to realize the potential the language offers for different ways to think about problems and articulate (code) solutions. ACM/SIGPLAN's serie

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

"The IDEA of Smalltalk derived from the IDEA of Simula; the philosophy and ideas of Englebart, Bush, Sutherland; the metaphor of cellular biology, and undoubtedly more. Alan Kay coalesced those influences and led the team that implemented the team that actually created the language at Xerox PARC

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Of course it's reasonable for you to dissent! But over and above the most important example Marcus raises of biology (because *everything* is biology 8^), even your historical account is a litany of WHAT, not WHY. Sure it may seem like you're examining the why of these artifacts. But you're no

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Thanks, Dave, for this history. I have had it from you in pieces over the years. It's wonderful to have it all in a chunk for study. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

"Like with the Great Man Theory, the actual causes of any phenomena in a complex and complicated system like Xerox Parc (embedded in culture, society, psychology, physiology, biology, chemistry, etc.) are multifarious and occult." Assuming there even was a Great Idea to go with a Great Man. Fo

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Well, it goes without saying, doesn't it, that it's your current IDEAS of biology that influence your programming, not biology itself, right? And your biologiized ideas of programming then influence your notion of the cell. We never really know clouds themselves. So to speak. N N

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Nick, If I were programming in Cello, then actual constraints of biology would influence me. If I were programming an agent simulation for a system biology modeling project, what I understood about biology would go into that. But not all kinds of programming would

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

There's also a deeper objection to this than Marcus makes, that of "data driven" modeling. I fight this battle all the time at biological modeling conferences. Most modelers *do* develop models based on ideas ... or, more technically, abstract hypotheses about abstract things (e.g. lipophilici

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Ha! I made a Trump by leaving out the word "not". That should be "..., but it does not 'go without saying'." On 07/19/2018 08:42 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > So, no, it does NOT go without saying that one's ideas influence the > programming. It's true pretty much everywhere, but it does "go without >

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Glen writes:

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Yep. That's a fantastic example of metaphysical predisposition interfering with one's ability to reason well. When I was a kid, my mom and I would argue a lot about whether animals had souls. She claimed they absolutely did not. Being young, I had no real idea what a soul was. But I would a

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Marcus, But it’s models all the way down, right? Furthermore, even for a dualist, your “biology” is the lens through which you see the world. So, the idea that there is a world out there against which we can measure our representations of It is just silly, right? All we have is repr

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

I accept there are some default lenses, but of course one develops more specific and different lenses to see the world too. I’m arguing that the default lens is not helpful as well as not anywhere close to correct. It is not an efficient way to reason about the detailed mechanisms of a compu

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Perhaps one could argue that the studiously acquired lens that allows one to think about the detailed mechanisms of a computer program is not helpful, nor anywhere close to correct and is not an efficient way to reason about the world outside the computer? On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Marcus

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

“Perhaps one could argue that the studiously acquired lens that allows one to think about the detailed mechanisms of a computer program is not helpful, nor anywhere close to correct and is not an efficient way to reason about the world outside the computer?” In that case, one can combine a lens

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Dave, I was just making the banal philosophical point that the validator of our senses can only be our senses. So a hunch “about the world” is nothing more than a hunch about future experiences of the world. As Harmon would say, we can never touch the noumenal. Nick . Nic

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

"the validator of our senses can only be our senses" waaay oversimplifies the set of experiences. If there were only 1 type of experience, then you'd be right. But there are (at least) many types of experience. And 1 experience of one type can "validate" a different experience of an entirely

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

> On Jul 19, 2018, at 5:26 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > > "the validator of our senses can only be our senses" waaay oversimplifies the > set of experiences. If there were only 1 type of experience, then you'd be > right. But there are (at least) many types of experience. And 1 experience > of one

Re: [FRIAM] Science question...re: cold neck scarfs

Preface: I am not a fan of email...in it's current form. I have some pretty good notions to why. I will respect the mods and leave it their. However, Mr. Homes yes! that is part of wonderful sense of curiusity why they are so helpful and why you can get some to refresh some... A shirt made sense

[FRIAM] A quibble and perhaps more than

Anyone else tired of the stupd place the countery is in now? Here is where this is coming from: Go get routine meds (alegera asprin, tyolol) and a new one that so far is helping some their slightly stronger and get processed in the inestines ecenteric? Alas I do not know the spelling of that type

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Thanks, Eric, for responding. Life, here, is very complicated, right at the moment, but I wanted to answer one of your comments, strait-away. Not only can this happen in *sequence* as you assume. But it can also happen in parallel. My hand can feel the elephant's trunk at the exact sa

Re: [FRIAM] Science question...re: cold neck scarfs

Gil - There is always a lot of blood flow between the heart and the brain which passes through the neck, fairly close to the skin.   Among the many things blood does, is act as a working fluid to try to help thermoregulate the body...   passing hot blood near the surface of the skin where evaporat

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

Thanks Nick, > Life, here, is very complicated, right at the moment, but I wanted to answer > one of your comments, strait-away. > > Not only can this happen in *sequence* as you assume. But it can also happen > in parallel. My hand can feel the elephant's trunk at the exact same time my

Re: [FRIAM] What is an object?

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 02:01:07PM +, Marcus Daniels wrote: > "Like with the Great Man Theory, the actual causes of any phenomena in a > complex and complicated system like Xerox Parc (embedded in culture, society, > psychology, physiology, biology, chemistry, etc.) are multifarious and > oc