Re: [dns-operations] Survey of How to Solving DNS Errors

2024-08-15 Thread Fred Morris
xample and *.com.example.com as "CNAME ." and ensuring qname-wait-recurse is set to "no". (Probably best to look at your own traffic with wireshark and identify the low hanging fruit.) -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns

Re: [dns-operations] Survey of How to Solving DNS Errors

2024-08-15 Thread Fred Morris
Qname minimization in relaxed mode intentionally triggers NXDOMAIN looking for e.g. _.anything.example.com On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, Florian Obser wrote: It's not a competition but... we are answering 50% NXDOMAIN and that's considered normal... It's also sad, but what can you do... __

[dns-operations] Checklist for DNS Server Implementation

2024-06-23 Thread Fred Morris
-checklist.html -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

[dns-operations] Prevalence of nameserver software Was: Re: DNS Operations

2024-03-03 Thread Fred Morris
ng" solution is Dnstap. My admittedly cynical response to the question posed here is that the most common server software is probably a lightweight forwarder (e.g. dnsmasq) or something which only coincidentally does DNS (e.g. Active Directory). -- Fred Morris, internet plumber __

Re: [dns-operations] cloudflare-dns.com doesn't have reverse DNS

2023-09-23 Thread Fred Morris
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023, Joe Abley wrote: Op 22 sep 2023 om 16:26 heeft Grant Taylor het volgende geschreven: I have long viewed operational, or better accurate, reverse DNS as an indication that a network cares enough to set up lesser valued services. Me too, actually. I don't personally t

Re: [dns-operations] cloudflare-dns.com doesn't have reverse DNS

2023-09-20 Thread Fred Morris
d DNS together I have what amounts to a federated / distributed SIEM and a menagerie of mostly command line tools for querying it. I have an irreverent white paper and a rough cut two minute video covering all of this. I am open to being part of any conversation about making these mappings visib

[dns-operations] cloudflare-dns.com doesn't have reverse DNS

2023-09-19 Thread Fred Morris
itorializing deleted.) -- Fred Morris -- # dig cloudflare-dns.com ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 35599 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 3, ADDITIONAL: 7 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;cloudflare-dns.com.    IN  A ;; ANSWER SECTION: cloudflar

Re: [dns-operations] "off label" use of PTR records for fanout

2023-06-15 Thread Fred Morris
er it wants, it just needs to expect the (actual) server as the first argument and return something to be added as a dictionary value. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/ma

[dns-operations] "off label" use of PTR records for fanout

2023-06-15 Thread Fred Morris
e directly as I think this is already tangential to the purpose of this list. Thank you for understanding... -- Fred Morris -- (Are you still reading?) I'm basically using PTR records like CNAME, but with the semantics "try all of these". The normal semantics of DNS resolut

Re: [dns-operations] Things not to do -- anyone from iCIMS?

2022-07-17 Thread Fred Morris
disappeared before I could definitely pin it on nscd.) -- Fred Morris On Sun, 17 Jul 2022, Fred Morris wrote: This is probably not a good idea. I've noticed issues resolving stuff served by them recently, but never put it together. The thing that finally caught my attention was that e.g.     #

[dns-operations] Things not to do -- anyone from iCIMS?

2022-07-17 Thread Fred Morris
and there is NO TRAFFIC after the DNS lookup. -- Fred Morris, internet plumber -- # dig careers-nv5.icims.com ; <<>> DiG 9.12.3-P1 <<>> careers-nv5.icims.com ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, stat

[dns-operations] Checklist for DNS server implementations

2022-06-15 Thread Fred Morris
the internet will be e.g. BIND, Knot, Unbound (and it will forward to the service for that zone). I'm viewing that as similar to a WAF. It's read only, it has no ability to write data. It will serve TXT records. [0] What's BCP? Thanks in advance... -- Fred Morris -- [0] I'm goi

Re: [dns-operations] How should work name resolution on a modern system?

2022-06-10 Thread Fred Morris
and we haven't solved the resource naming problem for what it is: why isn't "mail" or "www" unambiguous? What about "here"? Isn't that really "mail [for here]"? * Why don't we use the DNS to solve search lists? I will sit back and wat

[dns-operations] I must have fallen asleep Was: You live in a dump, Quoyle!

2022-02-21 Thread Fred Morris
cs_Useless.md The actual "shape of things" is obviously going to depend on what the network is utilized for. Is anybody else looking at this? Thanks in advance... -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] You live in a dump, Quoyle!

2022-02-14 Thread Fred Morris
their being, want it to be so, to be useful. No moral to the story, just that there's a story to PTR records. -- Fred Morris -- [0] The DNS protocol allows multiple rvalues per type per oname. This works ok for e.g. A/, is disallowed for CNAME, and is... I'm not sure what it is

Re: [dns-operations] You live in a dump, Quoyle!

2022-02-13 Thread Fred Morris
i.e. works with BIND); works with IPv6. https://github.com/m3047/rear_view_rpz Thanks... -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] Monitoring for impending expiration of domains?

2020-12-13 Thread Fred Morris
quot;whois privacy" toggle which toggles but doesn't do anything. I've fallen back to TXT records; why the heck not, they're overloaded for a bunch of "prove you love me" epics already. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operatio

Re: [dns-operations] dnstap tool

2020-11-10 Thread Fred Morris
ctors for fstrm/protobuf (part of the project, reusable) and DNS (pythondns): https://github.com/m3047/shodohflo/blob/master/examples/dnstap2json.py -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://list

Re: [dns-operations] systemd resolved ignores specified root

2020-09-16 Thread Fred Morris
r is the /fix/ the original (apache) behavior was much worse. Firefox just does what it wants to do. Interior periods are tried “as is” first then with the search list. Dotless names are tried with the search list then as is. Browser fetish for "search and URL in the same box"

Re: [dns-operations] [Ext] DNS Flag Day 2020 will become effective on 2020-10-01

2020-09-16 Thread Fred Morris
ragments") isn't received then TC=1 is never recognized (because the response is never recognized) and TCP is never tried. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

2020-08-25 Thread Fred Morris
done with the discussion now. On Tue, 25 Aug 2020, Jim Reid wrote: On 25 Aug 2020, at 03:30, Fred Morris wrote: I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat channel and who would they be? [...] There’s no justification for this outburst o

Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

2020-08-25 Thread Fred Morris
Clearly anything can be misunderstood, and I've been around technology long enough to know that technology choices are hardly rational all of the time. On Tue, 25 Aug 2020, Jim Reid wrote: On 25 Aug 2020, at 03:30, Fred Morris wrote: I think the question has to be: why would someo

Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

2020-08-24 Thread Fred Morris
quot;disruption" a.k.a. "market dominance". OARC, you keep on being your bad selves. On Mon, 24 Aug 2020, Doug Barton wrote: [...] Slack comes immediately to mind, but it's far from the only commonly used platform at the moment. -- Fred Morris _

[dns-operations] TCP Re: FlagDay 2020 UDP Size (ofda.gov breakage)

2020-08-07 Thread Fred Morris
ically the resolver protocol is unchanged since the 1980s. I think some further thinking should be done! -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] solutions for DDoS mitigation of DNS

2020-04-02 Thread Fred Morris
.cisco *cough* .belkin... no it's not COVID, I seem to have some DNS caught in my throat...) -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] solutions for DDoS mitigation of DNS

2020-04-02 Thread Fred Morris
(your legitimate source address when you reply). -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] solutions for DDoS mitigation of DNS

2020-04-01 Thread Fred Morris
Depends on what you mean. You might look at "response rate limiting" in for instance BIND. -- FWM On Thu, 2 Apr 2020, Tessa Plum wrote: May I ask if there are any solutions for DDoS mitigation of DNS? Both commercial or free solutions could be considered. __

Re: [dns-operations] root? we don't need no stinkin' root!

2019-11-27 Thread Fred Morris
so increasingly impractical as to obviate consideration? Should local resolvers reject attempts to resolve single labels as TLDs unless RD=0? I apologize, none of this is fully baked, but the debate doesn't seem to be encompassing the entirety of the system. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations

Re: [dns-operations] root? we don't need no stinkin' root!

2019-11-25 Thread Fred Morris
understand the scope of this problem, by the way.) Running your own caching resolver and dumping the cache and looking for stuff is also occasionally advisable; I suspect most of the people on this list would know this. -- Fred Morris On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Florian Weimer wrote: Is it

Re: [dns-operations] bug in Apache handling of real FQDNs

2015-06-08 Thread Fred Morris
ing perspective, Apache does treat them the same.) -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] bug in Apache handling of real FQDNs

2015-06-07 Thread Fred Morris
in what they accept? * If popular clients are getting this wrong... and nobody is noticing... is it time to retire the notion of FQDNs? -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/

Re: [dns-operations] bug in Apache handling of real FQDNs

2015-06-06 Thread Fred Morris
On Saturday 06 June 2015 09:56, Fred Morris wrote: > [...] > Thoughts? Comments? Worth reporting? Somebody thought so. ;-) Bug 58007 has been filed. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lis

[dns-operations] bug in Apache handling of real FQDNs

2015-06-06 Thread Fred Morris
You get 400 Bad Request. Thoughts? Comments? Worth reporting? -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] Stunning security discovery: AXFR may leak information

2015-04-16 Thread Fred Morris
ople... the implications, regardless of if they're going to do it or not. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] Stunning security discovery: AXFR may leak information

2015-04-16 Thread Fred Morris
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, [utf-8] Patrik F??ltstr??m wrote: > Part of this discussions is though the difference between registration > [...] and the delegation [...] > > I see personally quite a number of registries that are nervous about XFR > (or release of the zone in one way or another) are the same

Re: [dns-operations] Operations vs. the lab (Was: What would it take...)

2015-03-12 Thread Fred Morris
he internet, you really ought to monitor it.) If we really want to "step up" a rung or two on the operations and security ladder, communication needs to improve. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.ne

Re: [dns-operations] CloudFlare policy on ANY records changing

2015-03-10 Thread Fred Morris
can mean they go to a different server. So so true. You can use it in some vague way to fingerprint anycast DNS services. DAMHIK! -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo

Re: [dns-operations] Mozilla Firefox and ANY queries

2015-03-04 Thread Fred Morris
ameservers, iff it has nothing whatsoever in cache. If overwhelming cache was a key consideration, one would think that this would be surfaced in testing. I haven't looked over on the BIND lists. -- Fred Morris -- [Edited for brevity. brian* are names which are not explicitly defined for the z

Re: [dns-operations] Python or Ruby

2015-02-09 Thread Fred Morris
have to talk to my employer about that.) -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] AWS footnote: DNS firewall rules are UDP only

2015-01-28 Thread Fred Morris
On Wed, 28 Jan 2015, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Are there any Route 53 people on this list? If so, this should be fixed ASAP. I'm not sure that this is a Route 53 issue, I was trying to run my own DNS (for "other" purposes). I would characterize it as a tragically uninspired UX

[dns-operations] AWS footnote: DNS firewall rules are UDP only

2015-01-28 Thread Fred Morris
I just noticed that when configuring firewall rules for an AWS instance, if "DNS" is chosen then the (only) protocol automagically filled in is UDP. To get TCP, you have to create a custom TCP rule. When you save, the UDP one gets saved as "DNS", the TCP one stays "cu

[dns-operations] Is the historic NIC handle database searchable online?

2014-12-02 Thread Fred Morris
Is the historic NIC handle DB available anywhere online for search? -- Fred Morris, FWM6 ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https

Re: [dns-operations] cool idea regarding root zone inviolability

2014-11-28 Thread Fred Morris
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Mark Andrews wrote: > Sorting and hashing a zone ... is not mathematically necessary. As a simple counterexample, XOR is commutative and associative: it doesn't matter the order you XOR multiple blocks in. Not saying XOR is the One True Way, just that implementation details li

Re: [dns-operations] resolvers considered harmful

2014-10-24 Thread Fred Morris
ative resolvers yourself. But really, I would expect that if the roots/TLDs were overloaded people would route around the damage as they are wont to do, probably by running caching resolvers. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns

Re: [dns-operations] Curious use of cname

2014-08-06 Thread Fred Morris
The grain of sand that causes this pearl is that TLDs won't just publish the CNAME without delegation. That is all... -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinf

Re: [dns-operations] about the underline in hostname

2014-05-29 Thread Fred Morris
ertain? Are you really sure that the DNS is what is obstreperously impeding your happy path? -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] Uptick in number of domains losing delegation recently

2014-04-22 Thread Fred Morris
if valid, was provided for a reason and in spite of the presumed knowledge that it might be misused. Or don't collect the info, and I don't care what ICANN tells you (see how far that gets you). That race to the bottom might turn out to be to the bilges of

Re: [dns-operations] Introducing CNAME Flattening: RFC-Compliant CNAMEs at a Domain's Root

2014-04-05 Thread Fred Morris
esolution. No offense intended, but thanks for the laugh! Try setting up an RPZ with a dozen or so of the most common third-party "content providers", and tell me about your page load performance! -- Fred Morris, internet plumber ___ dns-operat

Re: [dns-operations] [OT] What are the most desirable skills, experience & education for [becoming] a good "DNS engineer"?

2014-01-29 Thread Fred Morris
eting and planning for extra credit. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] Should medium-sized companies run their own recursive resolver?

2013-10-17 Thread Fred Morris
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013, Paul Vixie wrote: > Fred Morris wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2013, Jared Mauch wrote: > >> Most of these "advanced" DNS things like RRL, RPZ and others aren't for > >> the faint of heart. Most people don't watch/monitor logs li

Re: [dns-operations] Should medium-sized companies run their own recursive resolver?

2013-10-17 Thread Fred Morris
he 2 IT bods would continue to argue for outsourcing; however there might be others within the organization with other concerns or objectives arguing otherwise. Let me add that rationally speaking IT is not likely to be a core competency in an organization where the IT resourcing is at a 1:

Re: [dns-operations] Should medium-sized companies run their own recursive resolver?

2013-10-14 Thread Fred Morris
or have the work cycles to do so). If I was one of the 2 IT bods, I'd be telling my employer to keep outsourcing. Depending on the line of work though, somebody else in the organization could very well be lobbying for the opposite, with specific concerns in mind. -- Fred Morris ___

Re: [dns-operations] Geoff Huston on DNS-over-TCP-only study.

2013-08-21 Thread Fred Morris
le not on this list. ;-) -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] DNS Issue

2013-04-26 Thread Fred Morris
that you wouldn't/shouldn't have appropriate traffic monitoring/etc. in place between the server and the rest of the internet. Agree/disagree, but there it is... -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https

[dns-operations] Having doubts about BCP38 solving the ORN problem

2013-03-31 Thread Fred Morris
hat" data scientists?) If we know that spoofed port queries are traversing peering points, then we know the networks they're coming from. If we don't know that, then see above; if we can't shame them, see "Maginot Line". -- Fred Morris _

Re: [dns-operations] Force TCP for external quereis to Open Resolvers?

2013-03-31 Thread Fred Morris
rver, couldn't they? Or anything else. Point is, since they spoof source addresses, they can spoof source addresses; it's not even a tautalogy, it's identity. They're doing it for the amplification. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operation

Re: [dns-operations] Odd MX queries

2013-03-11 Thread Fred Morris
maybe they need to place a caching resolver in front of their box. ;-) Of course if these are ANSWER=0 responses maybe the caching resolver isn't caching the responses... -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc

Re: [dns-operations] getting .CW recognised in the Google ccTLD tables/databases ...

2013-01-21 Thread Fred Morris
st of domains that Mozilla won't allow cookies to be set for. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

[dns-operations] note for the peanut gallery Re: underline in TXT's host

2012-12-14 Thread Fred Morris
On Fri, 14 Dec 2012, Fred Morris wrote: > dig `rm -rf *`.m3047.net Although I assume that the subscribers to this list are skilled enough practitioners to realize (or at least suspect) dangers lurk here, this list is archived. So therefore let me state that I suggest that the unwary rea

Re: [dns-operations] underline in TXT's host

2012-12-14 Thread Fred Morris
e a good idea for a hostname, and therefore delegating zones should not contain non-hostname labels in their FQDNs. However the Domain Name System per se imposes no such restrictions on labels. Khazakhstan issued domain names starting with a dash for a limited period of time

Re: [dns-operations] DNS hijack?

2012-11-20 Thread Fred Morris
at appropriately paranoid (you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you) nameserver implementations these days won't use what's in the additional section here because it's out of bailiwick. Are you using some specific resolver which does? -- Fred Morris ___

Re: [dns-operations] Looks like .us has a FAIL

2012-11-09 Thread Fred Morris
On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Fred Morris wrote: > demeter:~ demeter$ dig co.pierce.wa.us +trace ... > us. 172800 IN NS b.cctld.us. > us. 172800 IN NS a.cctld.us. > us. 172800 IN NS c.cc

[dns-operations] Looks like .us has a FAIL

2012-11-09 Thread Fred Morris
demeter:~ demeter$ dig co.pierce.wa.us +trace ; <<>> DiG 9.6-ESV-R4-P3 <<>> co.pierce.wa.us +trace ;; global options: +cmd . 32005 IN NS k.root-servers.net. . 32005 IN NS l.root-servers.net. . 32005 IN

Re: [dns-operations] dotless domains

2012-09-23 Thread Fred Morris
owhere. More likely, practically speaking, it will be decided by whatever search engine has a deal with the makers of their web browser. Where mail goes may be entirely somewhere... entirely different. So this is not a DNS question at all. I dunno, I guess I don't go to enough meetings

Re: [dns-operations] dotless domains

2012-09-23 Thread Fred Morris
ess blaggers. They'll have to market a rightside dot, of course. -- Fred Morris ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-operations dns-jobs mailing list https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listinfo/dns-jobs

Re: [dns-operations] dotless domains

2012-09-21 Thread Fred Morris
NS c.root-servers.net. . 283 IN NS a.root-servers.net. . 283 IN NS k.root-servers.net. I don't see "root" in there anywhere. What I see is ".". http://www.google.com./ works fine for me. ;-) --

Re: [dns-operations] go daddy refuses to register NS not otherwise associated with go daddy controlled domains

2012-09-12 Thread Fred Morris
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, David Conrad wrote: > If I'm interpreting this correctly (i.e., "CNAME at zone apex"), Yes. One of the common things people do is to configure their nameservers with that very CNAME. Why should they go to that trouble (to do it wrong, at that), why can't the delegator just do

Re: [dns-operations] go daddy refuses to register NS not otherwise associated with go daddy controlled domains

2012-09-12 Thread Fred Morris
efinition of "ok" than many of us; and by the time the question gets put to us, the querant's definition of "ok" is lost (particularly what they want or don't want done). Also following from lemmas 1 and 2: The registries could obviate the need for most of this charade b

Re: [dns-operations] go daddy refuses to register NS not otherwise associated with go daddy controlled domains

2012-09-11 Thread Fred Morris
ught it was too silly to mention. But seeing the cast of actors I thought I'd toss my hat in the ring. -- Fred Morris, internet plumber ___ dns-operations mailing list dns-operations@lists.dns-oarc.net https://lists.dns-oarc.net/mailman/listi

Re: [dns-operations] Why would an MTA issue an ANY query instead of an MX query?

2012-06-23 Thread Fred Morris
on in most people's brains: they just cannot accept that the internet is run by corporations, by other corporations, for corporations. We won't get rational thinking concerning social impacts at level nine of the OSI model until people accept this... IMO. -- Fred Morris ___