Re: well!

On 03/12/2013 08:17 PM, Till Maas wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:47:07AM -0400, Digimer wrote: >> On 03/12/2013 12:41 AM, Charles Zeitler wrote: >>> i don't like giving up control over my machine (partitioning), >>> so i won't be upgrading to Fedora 18. >>> i'll watch the web site for a return

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/13/2013 06:25 AM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius - (Nobody explicitly stated this, but) Displaying information geared towards power users by default is intimidating / confusing to less-knowledgeable users." I'd call this to be

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 03/13/2013 01:32 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> >>> I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original >>> but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seem

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12 March 2013 18:32, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original >> but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seemed very much >> a welded shut view. And as someone who has to work

Re: yum >= 3.4.3-70: yum check reports "X has installed obsoletes Y"

On 03/11/2013 11:44 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: This particular one is a significant user change because it's enabled by default, so users who went out of their way to uninstall yum-presto now get it forced on them again and have to disable it in yum.conf now. At the very least, this needs a release

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/13/2013 01:32 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote: On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seemed very much a welded shut view. And as someone who has to worked on wel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:19 PM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > I personally could not care less about the defaults Fedora uses. I've been > overriding them for years. I'm just glad I was able to learn these things > before everything became hidden. Because, naturally, you don't explore, find,

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things and I'm > grateful for it. > > The boot menu doesn't hurt anything. It has benefits. > > What are the benefits of removing the boot menu? > * Saving upwards of 5 seconds

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > and you learn by FACING things I'll leave it up to you to mention this to the very next blind person you encounter. >> Even if I were to see a coherent list of kernels in a list by their date, >> it's unlikely I as a new user would h

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

On 03/12/2013 10:18 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote: Again, I'm disappointed in seeing that placeholder text in stable updates. Clearly that plan failed---it'd be nice if Bodhi could become smart enough to reject updates with the placeholder description. I have filed a request on your behalf https

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 23:43 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > No, it's a MUST. There's a reason Bodhi introduced that placeholder text, to > make it clear that empty update notes are NOT acceptable. Some maintainers > still don't get it. Just because you're too lazy to do it doesn't mean you > aren't

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 23:23 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 12.03.2013 23:13, schrieb Simo Sorce: > > On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > >> > >> Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: > >>> I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference > >> > >> Bru

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 2013-03-12 14:33 (GMT+0100) Lennart Poettering composed: Fast boot times ... increase reliability, and How? applicability. What? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #21

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

My machine suspends to disk when I close the lid while it is unplugged. So ... Quite often. I would love to see the GRUB menu disabled by default, but I am also content with doing it myself post-install. On Mon 11 March 2013 21:51:01 Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/11/2013 05:04 PM, Lennart Poettering

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

On 03/12/2013 08:17 PM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: What is the point of the RPM changelog then? RPM changelog is for packaging changes. Bodhi update notes are for the user. They are not merely redundant copies of the same information. The last time I wanted to send a bodhi update, it gave

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Hi, On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > And which doesn’t nonsensically short timeout, so that I manage to get > booted sometimes only on third or fourth attempt (yes, I am easily > distracted to do something else while the system boots up; you have > a problem with that?) I have

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 08:02 PM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > However, pretty much every operating system out there has a special > key or combo to activate a boot menu, which is otherwise not > accessible. I don't think Linux users are less capable to find out > what they need to press at boot, when things nee

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original > but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seemed very much > a welded shut view. And as someone who has to worked on welded shut > computers for asthetic reasons

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:36 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > sorry, i have no other words for this discussion as braindead Check please! Hall monitors? ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

What is the point of the RPM changelog then? The last time I wanted to send a bodhi update, it gave me a transient file that I filled in, and then my ssh key was rejected for some reason, and I didn't have really want to deal with remembering what I wrote last time, so I wrote "new upstream releas

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > The proposal discussed here is not to "keep the hood on the car". > The proposal is to remove any indication there is a hood, and show the > user a seamless surface with no hint it can be opened (or how). However, pretty much every operat

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12 March 2013 17:10, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Mar 12 mars 2013 21:53, Máirín Duffy a écrit : >> I tried breaking this thread down into its components and summarizing >> the discussion and points brought up thus far. I hope it helps: >> >> http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2013/03/12/improving-the-

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 06:10 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > The proposal discussed here is not to "keep the hood on the car". > The proposal is to remove any indication there is a hood, and show the > user a seamless surface with no hint it can be opened (or how). Reminds me of the time I had to pay like $90

Re: well!

Charles Zeitler wrote: > i don't like giving up control over my machine (partitioning), > so i won't be upgrading to Fedora 18. > i'll watch the web site for a return to sanity. Why would partitioning be an issue when you upgrade? Just do a real upgrade (using either FedUp or yum directly), not a

Re: twinkle: Intent to retire

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > On 2013-03-12, 22:28 GMT, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> The main showstopper there is that they almost all directly or >> indirectly (e.g. through libmediastreamer) depend on FFmpeg. Ekiga >> seems to be the only one using GStreamer. :-( > > And telep

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 21:53, Máirín Duffy a écrit : > I tried breaking this thread down into its components and summarizing > the discussion and points brought up thus far. I hope it helps: > > http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2013/03/12/improving-the-fedora-boot-experience/ Máirín, The proposal discusse

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

Dan Mashal wrote: > Have bodhi grab it from the RPM change log spec file. Don't make > packager do more work than they already have to. The RPM changelog is not the place to describe what upstream changed, the Bodhi notes are. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraprojec

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 07:29 -0700, Dan Mashal wrote: > Bodhi never seemed like a tool to be informative. Just push out updates. When I push an update I write a detailed, end-user friendly, verbose explanation of why I'm doing it in the 'update description' field. I think this is something people

Re: twinkle: Intent to retire

On 2013-03-12, 22:28 GMT, Kevin Kofler wrote: > The main showstopper there is that they almost all directly or > indirectly (e.g. through libmediastreamer) depend on FFmpeg. Ekiga > seems to be the only one using GStreamer. :-( And telepathy-rakia (I positively hate Empathy as UI, but the telepa

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 13:17 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: > Keep in mind that the not show the menu by default plan depends on > the bootspec changes, and that will include a gui tool which will > allow users to select things like show the menu (and then it won't have > a timeout so be easier to get

Re: MySQL-libs conflicts with mariadb-libs-5.5.29-7.fc19.x86_64

Rex Dieter wrote: > Still a problem with last night's image compose. I suspect similar > problems are occuring from amarok's use of mysql-embedded. Please change > the soname in -embedded subpkg too As discussed in Bugzilla, -embedded already has different sonames, the actual problem was that t

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Dan Mashal wrote: >> Forget it. There is such a double standard here and exceptions to many >> rules. This is a worthless conversation. > > There are no exceptions. It's only because of lazy maintainers like you that > there's a double standar

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 19:04, Peter Jones a écrit : > Obviously we need to do a good job of making sure we tolerate failures, > and there are multiple ways to do this - if you reboot N times within M > seconds or somesuch might be a worthwhile heuristic. By definition an heuristic is unreliable. Th

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

Dan Mashal wrote: > Forget it. There is such a double standard here and exceptions to many > rules. This is a worthless conversation. There are no exceptions. It's only because of lazy maintainers like you that there's a double standard. Update notes are essential and MUST be filled in in a way

Re: twinkle: Intent to retire

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Jared K. Smith wrote: >> try to get some of the next generation open-source softphones >> compiling for Fedora and then packaged. > > The main showstopper there is that they almost all directly or indirectly > (e.g. through libmediastreamer)

Re: Unhelpful update descriptions

Dan Mashal wrote: > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Providing a link is helpful to users isn't semantics. You as a package >> maintainer would be aware of where to look for reviewing the changes >> before >> pushing an update. Users don't since it is different for d

Re: Fwd: MariaDB replacing MySQL

Norvald H. Ryeng wrote: > This dependency is a problem. It makes it impossible to install > MySQL-server on a KDE system since mariadb-server and MySQL-server > conflict. That just shows how broken it is to have both in Fedora at the same time. We need to make sure that 1. the live CD composes do

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 05:34:43PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: > I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference, it's > a little thing but 99% of the time I do not care about what is shown, > just that the machine is back up as fast as possible. This is also pretty important for g

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 2013-03-12, 11:45 GMT, Miloslav Trmač wrote: > users _have to_ interact with is solid? Like having a prompt for the > hard disk passphrase that tells the user in text what is necessary, > and actually looks like a text input field? (Have you seen how > confused a newbie is when turning on a Li

Re: twinkle: Intent to retire

Jared K. Smith wrote: > try to get some of the next generation open-source softphones > compiling for Fedora and then packaged. The main showstopper there is that they almost all directly or indirectly (e.g. through libmediastreamer) depend on FFmpeg. Ekiga seems to be the only one using GStream

Re: [emelfm2] remove vendor tag from desktop file. https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/247

Michael Schwendt wrote: > A concrete reason: Package names (including short-lived subpackages and > Obsoletes inherited from obsolete subpackages), which have not been used > anymore for a couple of years (e.g. two years), are irrelevant with regard > to the upgrade paths we _try to_ support. So w

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

+1 On Mar 12, 2013 7:37 AM, "Dan Mashal" wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald > wrote: > > > > > > Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: > >> > >> Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : > Von: Máirín Duffy > On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wro

Re: well!

Am 12.03.2013 20:17, schrieb Till Maas: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:47:07AM -0400, Digimer wrote: >> On 03/12/2013 12:41 AM, Charles Zeitler wrote: >>> i don't like giving up control over my machine (partitioning), >>> so i won't be upgrading to Fedora 18. >>> i'll watch the web site for a retur

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 23:13, schrieb Simo Sorce: > On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: >>> I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference >> >> Bruhahaha >> >> 100 reboots = 200 seconds = 3.3 Minutes more for 100 reboo

Re: RFC: Fedora revamp proposal

Kevin Fenzi wrote: > Why? if we reverted no work would have gone on on the new codebase That's the whole problem. The Anaconda team cannot manage to develop in a branch or trunk which is only put into Rawhide when it's ready. Somehow all other upstreams manage, even where they happen to be Red H

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: > I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference Bruhahaha 100 reboots = 200 seconds = 3.3 Minutes more for 100 reboots well, i boot probably more VMs you have ever seen BUT if two seconds are really counting you are doing something t

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: > > I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference > > Bruhahaha > > 100 reboots = 200 seconds = 3.3 Minutes more for 100 reboots > well, i boot probably more VMs you have eve

Re: well!

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Till Maas wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:47:07AM -0400, Digimer wrote: >> On 03/12/2013 12:41 AM, Charles Zeitler wrote: >> >i don't like giving up control over my machine (partitioning), >> >so i won't be upgrading to Fedora 18. >> >i'll watch the web site f

Re: twinkle: Intent to retire

On 2013-03-12, 01:03 GMT, Jared K. Smith wrote: > I've successfully used Twinkle for the last three or four years, > despite its bitrot and lack of updates from upstream. I *once* had > Ekiga working, but it gave me so many problems a few years ago that I > had given up on it. Sounds like it's ti

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 09:56 -0400, Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/12/2013 09:33 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > > On Tue, 12.03.13 09:13, Steve Clark (scl...@netwolves.com) wrote: > > > > > How many times do you boot your system each day? 10? Okay thats a > > > whole 20 additional seconds. > > This

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 05:15 PM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: > Sure, and I'm sure the rental company wouldn't want you to pop the hood. Not having a rental car break down on the side of the highway in an unfamiliar city is certainly a luxury. ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://a

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12/03/13 11:31 AM, Chris Adams wrote: Here's the other large difference between the typical Linux install and Windows/Mac OS: Linux has choices that can be made at boot. When the other OSes update their equivalent to the kernel, they don't leave multiple kernels installed that can be chosen a

[Call to Arms] Fedora 19 Test Days starts this week

Hi Fedora users, developers and friends! today Fedora 19 was branched from Rawhide. That means testing season begins now and will continue till Fedora 19 Final Release, which may be (or may not be) on 2013-06-25. Please, fasten your seatbelts, fire up your virtual or baremetal machines and enjo

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Sure, and I'm sure the rental company wouldn't want you to pop the hood. ... wait, what were we saying about bootloaders again? On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/12/2013 05:01 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > That, plus whether the lever to open the hood is hidden or app

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 05:01 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > That, plus whether the lever to open the hood is hidden or apparent. I always know where it is on my car, and I never know where it is in a rental. ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/list

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:38:32PM -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote: > I know it is a simplification, but to me, the two sides of this > argument are: > * remove the hood of the car, and keep it off in case something goes > wrong, or to entice new drivers to look in there and guess what is > going on. > * k

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

I tried breaking this thread down into its components and summarizing the discussion and points brought up thus far. I hope it helps: http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2013/03/12/improving-the-fedora-boot-experience/ ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org

Self Introduction

Hello Fedora developers, I've been a long time Fedora user, and Red Hat Linux before that, going back to RHL 5.2 (I still have the box set of CDs!). I've opened many bug reports over the years, and tried to include patches in a few, but now I'm venturing into package maintenance. I recently open

Re: well!

On 03/12/2013 02:17 PM, Till Maas wrote: > Btw.: Ideas how to install F18 anyhow are welcome. Use F17 and then fedup to F18 if F18's anaconda will not work for you. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: well!

> Btw.: Ideas how to install F18 anyhow are welcome. I have had some success using gparted LiveCD or LiveUSB (http://gparted.org/) to construct the partition layout including file system labels, then using anaconda (DVD) to "take over" and re-format the then-existing partitions. I use the labels t

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

And how does the proposal here remove functionality or lower maintainability? On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On 03/12/2013 02:35 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: >> >>> Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It sh

Re: well!

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 20:17 +0100, Till Maas wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:47:07AM -0400, Digimer wrote: > > On 03/12/2013 12:41 AM, Charles Zeitler wrote: > > >i don't like giving up control over my machine (partitioning), > > >so i won't be upgrading to Fedora 18. > > >i'll watch the web si

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:35 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things and I'm grateful for it. We shouldn't ignore developments done in other camps. NIH is bad. Of course it is. What

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 03:21:54PM -0400, Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/12/2013 02:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > >but the better option for us all would be if people with > >this attitude switch to these operating systems instead > >damage slowly what we know as UNIX-LIKE system I *completely* *detes

Re: tomcat6 unresponsive maintainer & deprecation

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote: > Quoting Dan Mashal (2013-03-12 18:11:06) >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM, yersinia wrote: >> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:05 PM, devzero2000 wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky >> >> wrote: >

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 19:03, schrieb Chris Murphy: i learned it many years ago by facing the boot-menu Well you wouldn't learn it today because of how grub2-mkconfig and grubby interact. ah and because things got worser you would make it more worse Yo

Re: well!

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:47:07AM -0400, Digimer wrote: > On 03/12/2013 12:41 AM, Charles Zeitler wrote: > >i don't like giving up control over my machine (partitioning), > >so i won't be upgrading to Fedora 18. > >i'll watch the web site for a return to sanity. > > > >charles zeitler > > Setting

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:51:10 -0400 Peter Jones wrote: ...snip... > So, the problems with that when we implemented it on grub1 were > numerous, but basically they're all of one variety: > > 1) we have to clear the buffer at some point because BIOSes often > leave junk in them > 2) it's unclear t

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:36:56PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > hpw do you imagine the system to smell booting the new > one has failed? if it fails it will hopefully not remount > the rootfs RW (if it would be possible at this time) > and write something to disk so that the next reboot knows > "

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:38:39 +0100 Reindl Harald wrote: > Am 12.03.2013 19:35, schrieb Tomasz Torcz: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those > >> things and I'm grateful for it. > > > > We shouldn't ign

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 19:35, schrieb Tomasz Torcz: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: >> Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things >> and I'm grateful for it. > > We shouldn't ignore developments done in other camps. NIH is bad nobody says ignore

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 19:31, schrieb Peter Jones: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:17:26PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> >> Am 12.03.2013 18:51, schrieb Peter Jones: >>> So I'd really rather have it so that /under normal circumstances/, if the >>> user wants the non-default kernel or parameters, they tel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 19:03, schrieb Chris Murphy: >> i learned it many years ago by facing the boot-menu > > > Well you wouldn't learn it today because of how grub2-mkconfig and grubby > interact. ah and because things got worser you would make it more worse > Your first kernel update depends on g

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 18:51, schrieb Peter Jones: > So I'd really rather have it so that /under normal circumstances/, if the > user wants the non-default kernel or parameters, they tell us so before > rebooting /under normal circumstances/ you do not often need this and if booting fails comepletly afte

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> Von: Ray Strode > >> This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any > >> easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical > >> tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when > >> we wanted to add a messagse to fedup) > > > > I hope

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:24 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: On 03/12/2013 02:03 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: New kernels bring a lot of regressions and we don't

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things > and I'm grateful for it. We shouldn't ignore developments done in other camps. NIH is bad. > What are the benefits of removing the boot menu? > * Saving upward

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things and I'm grateful for it. The boot menu doesn't hurt anything. It has benefits. What are the benefits of removing the boot menu? * Saving upwards of 5 seconds per day! My god, think of the productivity boost! * Its prettier

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Once upon a time, Alec Leamas said: > I *do* appreciate the attempts to get a clean, graphically consistent > boot experience. And to be frank, I wonder if not WIn 8 (and perhaps > Mac) has got it right. It's just that a Fedora box isn't a Win8 or a > Mac, and the boot UI cant change that. We

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:17:26PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.03.2013 18:51, schrieb Peter Jones: > > So I'd really rather have it so that /under normal circumstances/, if the > > user wants the non-default kernel or parameters, they tell us so before > > rebooting > > /under normal

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:03 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: New kernels bring a lot of regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The gen

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:01 PM, Alec Leamas wrote: > > I *do* appreciate the attempts to get a clean, graphically consistent boot > experience. And to be frank, I wonder if not WIn 8 (and perhaps Mac) has got > it right. It's just that a Fedora box isn't a Win8 or a Mac, and the boot UI > cant

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> From: Chris Murphy > > On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > > From: Chris Murphy > > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > > is stuck. Menu at least advertises possibility of alternative. > > > > This logic doesn't work. The user

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Hi, >> This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any >> easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical >> tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when >> we wanted to add a messagse to fedup) > > I hoped that it would be easier

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: >> On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: >> >>> New kernels bring a lot of >>> regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The >>> general solution to those

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 05:19:52PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Mar 12 mars 2013 16:10, Peter Jones a écrit : > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:58:05PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > The idea would be to have a positive indication from systemd that > > we've gotten to some pre-defined p

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 17:19 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Did anyone check the X guys were ok with a setup where they had no longer > any room for error? They heavily depend on users being able to boot on the > previous kernel when there is a driver problem. Yeah, I'm good. - ajax -- devel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 2013-03-12 18:30, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > From: Chris Murphy > > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > is stuck. Menu at least advert

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 09:51:14AM -0600, Pete Travis wrote: > For the use cases where it doesn't work, what about dropping a bootloader > config spoke into anaconda, or revealing the appropriate features in > kickstart options? Perhaps probing to test for dual boot to determine if a > brief timeo

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 09:28:28AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:10:27 -0400 > Peter Jones wrote: > > > Honestly, I'd like to do this anyway - the grub2 gfxterm code seems to > > cause nothing but bugs in later graphics setup. That said, I'd rather > > go back to not having

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12 March 2013 09:00, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/12/2013 08:30 AM, Fabian Deutsch wrote: >> What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to >> trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: >> "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloade

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > From: Chris Murphy > > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > > is stuck. Menu at least advertises possibility of alternative. > > > > This logic doesn't work. The user ignorant of holding down ev

Re: tomcat6 unresponsive maintainer & deprecation

Quoting Dan Mashal (2013-03-12 18:11:06) > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM, yersinia wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:05 PM, devzero2000 wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Quoting Kevin Fenzi (2013-03-12 15:53:56) > >>> > On Tue, 1

Re: Fwd: MariaDB replacing MySQL

On 03/12/2013 01:14 PM, Norvald H. Ryeng wrote: On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:58:03 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Honza Horak wrote: This doesn't solve all the issues -- if package like akonadi-mysql says "Requires: mysql-server", then Oracle MySQL either wouldn't satisfy that requirement or (in case i

Re: tomcat6 unresponsive maintainer & deprecation

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky < sochotni...@redhat.com> wrote: > Quoting Kevin Fenzi (2013-03-12 15:53:56) > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:49:22 +0100 > > Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote: > > > > > Tomcat6 package in Fedora is old, has several problematic bugs > > > (including 4 sec

Re: tomcat6 unresponsive maintainer & deprecation

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM, yersinia wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:05 PM, devzero2000 wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky >> wrote: >>> >>> Quoting Kevin Fenzi (2013-03-12 15:53:56) >>> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:49:22 +0100 >>> > Stanislav Ochotnicky wro

Re: tomcat6 unresponsive maintainer & deprecation

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:05 PM, devzero2000 wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky < > sochotni...@redhat.com> wrote: > >> Quoting Kevin Fenzi (2013-03-12 15:53:56) >> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:49:22 +0100 >> > Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote: >> > >> > > Tomcat6 package in Fe

Re: MariaDB replacing MySQL

On 03/06/2013 02:44 PM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Norvald H. Ryeng wrote: In practice, this means that it will be almost impossible to install MySQL in Fedora. The recipe in the feature page [1] requires the user to 1. edit yum.conf to set excludes=mariadb* and obso

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: > On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: > >> New kernels bring a lot of >> regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The >> general solution to those problems is to go back to the last working >> kernel version. Bu

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

If this happens right now, what do users do? They probably take some other computer and Google and find that you have to choose the previous kernel, or edit the kernel cmdline. In the new world, they Google and find that you have to hold Control and choose the previous kernel, or edit the kernel cm

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