ve my idea some consideration and forward me any feedback.
With very pleasant regards and in fellowship towards the greater good,
~E
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on marks I am using!
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e are slowly formalizing what
has been done for a long time through an evasion of mind. If we can continue to
formalize our progress towards the goal we've held all along then that seem
productive. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that sort of thing.
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currently push that to the
forefront and use our most trafficked pages to aggressively push hardware that
makes it easy for us to execute the obligations of the Social Contract.
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he boundaries of the law to promote
change to a more open system.
...
Obviously, we can't be in the position of asking our donors or our users to
purposefully break the law. Where law and logistics make it impossible to be
"completely free" we must strive to be as "fre
ave a computer that is 99.9% free?
Keep in mind that I'm asking this in the scenario where providing the last
0.01% as Free Software would be illegal.
With the way cell phones and hosted applications are developing it might not be
so far-fetched.
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[EM
ue. Would someone privately mail me a link(s)
to the best summary of what we need?
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- "Manoj Srivastava" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23 2008, martin f krafft wrote:
>
> > It's all a matter of defining what your priorities are, which brings
> > us back to the Social Contract, which says that these include:
> >
> > - 100% freeness
> > - cater best to the inter
ett
Packard could give us some perspective on how their internal packages could fit
into that sort of scheme.
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For the sake of argument, what if we created a distribution of Debian that only
runs on architectures with more than one CPU. We will designate one of the CPUs
to be the "non-free CPU". This CPU will run all "sourceless" software. For this
distribution we can move all of non
ian Compatible" environment will serve us, them and our users.
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t;, which I immediately reserved as a means of making a point about
trademark infringement. That URL could still be a good place to do this kind of
work and I'm happy to hand it back to SPI if someone is serious about doing
that kind of work on it.
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in addition to our "official" images that are completely Free. I
realize that I haven't contributed to Debian enough lately to really complain
about any of this but I still can't help being surprised. We should be running
free ads for hardware vendors that offer pre-rolle
o so.
>
> (Since this option overrides the SC, I believe it would require 3:1
> majority)
This seems rational and pragmatic. I second this proposal.
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" doesn't turn into "steal when
convenient". If we must break the rules then please lets do "steal when you
have no other choice and pay back with interest later".
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of it, you can't know for sure what
it is doing with your information. We want to be sure and so do our *real*
users.
ps. Take all of that with a grain of salt since I agree that we should release
Lenny with continued *temporary* exceptions for problematic, popular firmware.
--
Ea
ar. Can you see any criteria that I'm missing here?
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- "Josselin Mouette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Le lundi 17 novembre 2008 à 13:01 -0600, Ean Schuessler a écrit :
>
> No, the proposal wouldn’t allow that since it only lifts DFSG #2. Such
> an image would still fail DFSG #1, #3, #7, and probably #5 and #6.
No
eria?
When considering Silverlight(tm) development tools this use case is not even
far-fetched.
I made the mistake in my earlier message of saying "main". I should have said
"sourceless". In either case, the firmware in question could be distributed as
part of our stan
d thingies will be running Ubuntu and not Debian. That will
give them lots of users that we will never have a chance at, no matter how much
proprietary firmware we bundle in.
There may be other solutions to this problem but I think we have to correctly
identify the source first
ll Debian + proprietary firmware?
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ode in Debian. The
> Debian project has done no such thing.
The Debian project can only act through its members (until we build an AI) so
your point seems syntactically meaningless.
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n-disclosure agreement.
Should we just create a system where Debian-Private authors can authorize
messages (3 years or otherwise) and they are automatically made publicly
available. Is there a legal barrier to creating such a system, GR or no GR?
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e empathy and maybe a shred of patience.
E
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ou've changed gears.
> So again, I apologize for contributing to the confusion surrounding the
> siutation with Debian machines hosted at Brainfood.
Apology accepted and deeply appreciated.
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that prompted it.
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with a subject of "
sure, maybe. If
the firmware runs is executed by a Turing complete CPU attached to the system
then it is a binary like any other and should be subject to the same rules
anything else is!
Modern 3Ware cards have a PowerPC CPU. Claiming that their firmware is not an
executable is a distortion.
quot;Manoj Srivastava" wrote:
> Here is the *DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT* ballot for the GR. Please note
> the dates on the ballot; voting is not open yet.
>
> Please send comments to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org list.
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d installer out of "non-free". Its just as easy for users to download and
it doesn't require us breaking our foundational documents or distorting the
notion of what constitutes free software.
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certainly do not envy Manoj's position. The task of turning this firmware
hoo-haw into a reasonable vote seems difficult at the very best.
Thank you, Manoj, for your work.
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majority as long as you actually
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- "Ean Schuessler" wrote:
> I know that some are fixated on the fact that firmware runs on "some
> other CPU" but I don't buy that line of reasoning. If this firmware
> business passes then I am going to start hunting down some MAME ROMs
> that have laps
ing started). I fail to understand how serious Debian
>Developers arrive at a point where enforcing the DFSG is an exercise for
>"zealots".
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declaring firmware to be source but I agree on
the notion that marking a release ready state is a separate matter.
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out their interpretation.
>
> And that's my interpretation too. I think the constitution is quite
> clear here.
If the new interpretation alters the meaning of the document then the operation
is functionally identical. This discussion is taking on shades of 1984... war
is peace, bi
ruptive and expensive to our users as a technical problem. I think this
factor is really what the discussion is about and why release continues to be a
sticking point year after year.
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27;s my opinion and if that makes me a
"zealot", fine. Guilty as charged.
I do want to say, I still really appreciate all the work that you and everyone
else involved in the release and FTP process does. I love Debian and use it
every single day (practically every hour). Sorry that I
between a rock and a hard place
with this one. Thanks for the hard work.
I'm mighty curious who wants to sign up for this beating next.
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behavior for project members? To me the
foundation documents are "foundational" in the sense of the Bill of Rights.
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the
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onsensus requirements. It seems like they may malfunction but I can't really
visualize all the ways that might happen. Is there a mathematician in the house?
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same as a "do this, don't do this" vote. If it is between the next closest
runner up, then it seems poorly defined.
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to the original plan
is not a crazy idea.
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just thump them out, but a temporary compromise
> is not necessarily a change of our principles.
> So, yes, that does require interpretation.
Could we please vote on whether the Social Contract is the "foundation" of the
constitution?
This notion that the SC is a "suggestio
get things done) seems nonsensical in the extreme.
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ly.
After that we can move on to correcting the constitution/social contract gap
and figuring out if we need another drawer labeled "firmware and other
indispensable non-free bits" for things people just can't stand to put in
non-free.
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e...@
with your reasoning, I challenge you to work things through to their
conclusion. B is not a solution, its the beginning of a problem.
"Do what thou wilt" -- Francois Rabelais
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ese items even though I expect that the second option requires 3:1 under the
constitution.
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solution by the next release.
So I'm sorry Robert, your heart is absolutely in the right place but I agree
that we should release Lenny. I encourage you to "go with flow" and think about
structuring the solution down the road.
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.
Do not take this as an expression of distaste on my part. There are no
"enemies" here, just people disagreeing passionately. Passion is good, we just
need to channel it properly.
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lone. Please do not ask for another
GR unless you want one.
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- "Wouter Verhelst" wrote:
> # Debian Code of Conduct
...
> ## In case of problems
>
> Serious or persistent offenders will be temporarily or permanently
> banned from communicating through Debian's systems. Complaints should
> be made (in private) to the administrators of the Debian commun
- "Ian Jackson" wrote:
> This isn't really true IMO. Someone who is banned can always send a
> message privately to a sympathetic contributor, who can forward it if
> it seems relevant or interesting. (I have in fact done this for a
> contributor who was under some kind of cloud, when they
- "Steve McIntyre" wrote:
> I'm not sure how wiki.d.o bans would fit. We *could* list banned
> users
> on a specific page, I guess. But the vast majority of the bans we
> ever
> enact are for spamming.
I feel like spamming and trolling should be considered a different
phenomena than bans bro
What if the DPL begins to consider persistent disagreement with the
DPL as a form of "flaming"?
- "Wouter Verhelst" wrote:
> I'd like to propose a rationale for option one on the ballot, if I
> may:
>
> Rationale:
> Allowing the DPL to update the Code of Conduct will make it easier
> to
>
- "Russ Allbery" wrote:
> I think this is a mistake.
>
> The experiences of other groups have mostly convinced me that the
> point of
> a Code of Conduct should be to scare away potential contributors who
> cannot or are unwilling to behave according to the standards that we
> expect of our
- "Holger Levsen" wrote:
> If you don't like upstreams choices, *you* should write patches. Not
> GRs telling other people to do so.
Very well stated. Perhaps a sensible response to this GR is for all of
the maintainers who truly disagree with it to state their intent of
putting their packag
feel like your contribution is worthwhile!
Cheers and in disgust!
~E
* This very sarcastic email brought to you by servers hosted at the highly
incompetent Brainfood corporation and written by the naggy, incompetent and
grousy Ean Schuessler and his incompetent staff. Proudly serving Debia
you as a key obstruction a while
> ago), and yet doing lots of very important work for the project.
>
> Which packages do you maintain, by the way?
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you brought it up.
>
> Why didn't the payee of this check ask you instead of Branden? Do you
> not communicate?
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uld and do concern me. Branden is the
one who continues to publicly antagonize me on this topic for no apparent
reason. I am discussing it on this list because his behavior reflects on his
suitability as a candidate.
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Whoops. I misworded that.
Branden must have failed to copy my Mother about cutting the check. He only
told the list. Otherwise, why would she write him an email?
Sorry.
On Saturday 19 February 2005 02:48 pm, Ean Schuessler wrote:
> It mostly indicates that Branden did not copy my Mother on
On Saturday 19 February 2005 03:31 pm, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Because she didn't bother asking you? But that's not the point.
About sending the check?
> The question is, why didn't you clear this up directly with Branden?
Ok, I'm game. Why?
ps. Who's on
leader effectively. You may
> not be running for DPL, but you are serving in a position of
> responsibility for SPI, and you don't seem to have the things needed
> to do that well. You aren't playing nice. You are trying to solve
> inter-personal problems by bringing them up on big gro
s when I ask for simple tasks to be performed.
>
> You are one of its representatives.
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out of google, out of public lists and hidden from
view. I know that's what I signed up for.
Cheers!
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st about to come to an end).
> Why not just feel happy that these things are finally resolved. (It can
> happen all the time that reminders and invoice payments overlap.)
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FYI,
Here is the "naggy, grousing email" that my Mother sent SPI. This is, by the
way, the *only* reminder we sent SPI in the six month period it took SPI to
pay its bill.
Huzzah!
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up. Without Debian's money and trademarks
SPI is largely irrelevant. I think its all good food for thought.
I do agree about the campaign though. I'm just warming up a little, since
Branden has been doing the same. Speaking of... I'm not running for DPL but
here is something
ed papers I assumed you were aware of it. Of course, maybe that
wasn't "procedural" enough for you guys to take any action on it.
> Actually, "this year" would be inaccurate. "last year" would even be
> inaccurate. This would have to be 200
it's anything like working
> smoothly by July.
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by Brainfood and Branden Robinson.
>
> ...
>
> Please, guys. I think it's pretty clear to everyone involved now that
> Branden Robinson and Ean Schuessler don't really, uh, like eachother all
> that much. Such is life. Can we go on now, please?
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is finally *starting* to act like a real,
> competant organization, after almost 8 years. These are tentative baby
> steps, of course, and much remains to be done. I hope that 8 years from
> now, we can look back and see how far we've come, rather than continuing
> to point fing
nd
Debian is its main customer. If I had a bank mislay checks constituting 50%
of my account holdings I would take a very active interest in its operations.
I don't think its a question of who will represent Debian in SPI but rather
the level of performance Debian expects. The representative
. Especially since such
requests ironically continue the very thing you are trying to end.
Uh, so there. Nyah. etc.
On Wednesday 23 February 2005 4:35 pm, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Please take this off debian-vote. It is not on-topic here and belongs
> elsewhere.
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ng lists where they belong?
SPI is not in a position to change its own behavior. :-D
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task on.
Let me be clear. The fact that he failed isn't the problem. Branden is a stand
up guy but we're talking about running for DPL. When addressing his failure
he can't say things like "I didn't lose the funds, they were sent back to the
donors." That's not DP
> We probably have some non-treasurer things -- incorporation papers, etc
> -- that should be in a safe deposit box somewhere. I'm aware of that.
> It just hasn't been at the top of the list given all the other urgent
> needs we have around here. Or are you aware of things
sion to sign checks
even though he was no longer treasurer.
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n ass
> to your peers really the only strategy you find effective in life?
Of course, you would never stoop to such tactics, would you?
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c DPL-platform like statements in this month.
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re welcome to either post suggested questions to this list, or to
> email myself and/or Martin privately with your suggestions. If you wish
> your questions to be anonymous, please email us privately and make that
> clear.
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Brai
tions will you take to insure that
Debian's funds and other property are managed in a professional manner? How
will you insure successful execution?
Sorry, I should have read it out loud.
On Wednesday 02 March 2005 8:42 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
> Ean Schuessler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [
Subjects for different topics would be nice too...
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that the newsleatter is
> modeled on a US tabloid, which I have never read (except for headlines
> about two-headed cows while standing in line with my milk). If it wasn't
> so sad, that alligation would be histerical.
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Brain
hrough his "100 supporters" technique but this has
escaped your notice. At least my "campaining" has the excuse of thousands of
misplaced Debian dollars driving it. Moreover, I'm not running for office and
receive no personal benefit if the issues I've raised are a
se?
>
> * ELF binary without C source
> * Java class file without Java source
>(This is reasonably decompilable: cf. jad package)
...
> * Dump of neural network data without training data or without
>exact method to duplicate the network
...
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y 05 March 2005 6:55 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
> http://women.alioth.debian.org/profiles/
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ll make all
> of your 1000 points go away in two years if you don't replenish them.
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; notion. One person enforcing their political position on another is
> simply inexcusable; a higher crime does not exist. It's a form of
> slavery.
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? Especially the parts about being "assigned" to a team,
> "team leader" and "requirements for teams" stopped me cold in the tracks.
>
> Regards, David
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Please see
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00298.html
>
> and
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/project-scud.html
> "Constitutionality"
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ncerned that the long-term goal is going to
> suffer by forcing users to make the choice between (a) going somewhere
> else or (b) exposing themselves to poorly supported software from
> non-free.
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y, you lose.
>
> You can get another ticket for the Meme Lottery if you tell us what we
> (and/or the new DPL) should do instead, given that (a) inappropriate
> "content" is a problem on many Debian lists, and (b) previous attempts to
> tone said content down have failed.
gt; wellcoming climate too.
>
> Is a bus with a whites-only section at the front segregated?
>
> Really, it is simple to make the debian-women project not
> segregated, but it seems clear from
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/08/msg00100.html
> that segregation is in
communicate anything whatsoever, even if
> it's detrimental to the communication. So, sorry, but your "we" isn't
> exactly the same as my "we".
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When we go on our required Debian Skinny Dipping Adventure(tm) will we also be
required to form into "small groups?" Will what remains of Debian-Women still
be allowed to exclude men?
Dark prospects indeed . . .
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Brainfood,
agree with you that endless debate for the sake of lip-flapping is one of
the project's biggest challenges. I just think you are over-simplifying the
solutions.
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onsortium? I vote for that guy.
>
> Manoj, did you tally that? Thanks.
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er than
removing it. I don't know what it takes to make this clear but
non-professional, volunteer accounting help is not working for Debian. It has
never worked well and it is just barely working now. Shifting responsibility
to multiple organizations will only create more problems unless t
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