Hi, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
> To get back to something *concrete*, would anyone find it sexist if the
> phrase was "So easy your secretary or your boss could use it"? This pairs
> a stereotypically male and a sterotypically female profession, both
> stereotypically clueless.
These words are also
Andrew Suffield wrote:
> If people address issues rather than personalitites then everything
> you have said is completely irrelevant, because they aren't going to
> be perturbed by the "speech" pattern of the people they are talking
> to, so we can phrase things however we damn well please.
You'r
Evan Prodromou wrote:
>> "AS" == Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> AS> Sure, and that's best accomplished by everybody not being a
> AS> wuss.
>
> It doesn't make you a wuss to be respectful to others. Quite the
> contrary: the strong know their own strength and don't n
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:28:12PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:14:52AM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
> > AS> The rest of your mail was based on similarly dumb ideas.
> >
> > Which ideas do I have that are so dumb?
>
> > That you shouldn't be mean when you don't h
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:14:52AM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
> AS> The rest of your mail was based on similarly dumb ideas.
>
> Which ideas do I have that are so dumb?
> That you shouldn't be mean when you don't have to?
Yes, that's hippie shit.
If you s/shouldn't/don't need to/ then it'
> "AS" == Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Me> Within our project, if you consider the most effective DDs*,
Me> you're going to also be thinking of the most reasonable,
Me> thoughtful, and friendly ones.
AS> No, I'd say that's entirely wrong.
I'd say that you're be
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 10:09:48AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-03-22 21:52:52 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >I don't want people to say "this might be suboptimal" instead of "this
> >is crap", because then I won't be able to tell the difference between
> >things that a
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:42:47AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > Hey, sure. It's impossible not to offend anyone. But it's always
> > possible to deal with people politely and respectfully. How they react
> > is their own business.
> That attitude was the cause of the Earth-Minbari war.
And h
On 2004-03-22 21:52:52 + Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I don't want people to say "this might be suboptimal" instead of "this
is crap", because then I won't be able to tell the difference between
things that are crap and things that are suboptimal. I *want* to know
when somethi
On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 05:31:52PM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
> Within our project, if you consider the most effective DDs*, you're
> going to also be thinking of the most reasonable, thoughtful, and
> friendly ones.
No, I'd say that's entirely wrong. The rest of your mail was based on
similarly
> "JW" == Jonathan Walther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
JW> I don't appreciate the way you are always "flexing your
JW> muscles" and accusing your fellow DDs of being sexist.
I didn't accuse you of being sexist, Jonathan. I would, if I knew that
you thought that dogs and women were equ
On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 05:31:52PM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
"AS" == Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
AS> Sure, and that's best accomplished by everybody not being a
AS> wuss.
It doesn't make you a wuss to be respectful to others. Quite the
contrary: the strong know their o
> "AS" == Andrew Suffield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
AS> Sure, and that's best accomplished by everybody not being a
AS> wuss.
It doesn't make you a wuss to be respectful to others. Quite the
contrary: the strong know their own strength and don't need to flex
their muscles all the ti
On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 01:37:20PM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
> > "GW" == Gunnar Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> GW> However, I do feel that trying to be politically correct in
> GW> order never to offend anyone is plain stupid.
>
> How about this:
>
> 1) We act courteous, ma
> "GW" == Gunnar Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
GW> However, I do feel that trying to be politically correct in
GW> order never to offend anyone is plain stupid.
How about this:
1) We act courteous, mature, and professional towards each other.
2) When representing Debian, we thin
Amaya dijo [Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100]:
> On a side note, other real life examples.
> - At Debconf @ Toronto, BDale used grannies as examples of the worst
> kind of clueless users Debian should aim at. Susan happens to be a DD
> and a grannie, so he stood corrected, but refused my p
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
> "JW" == Jonathan Walther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
JW> You are right. It is horrible discrimination that my pet dog
JW> is not allowed to vote in the US presidential elections. Down
JW> with discrimination!
Let me get this strai
On 2004-03-21 01:46:14 + Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 03:30:32PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
Ignoring the sexism, it's still rather insensitive to some. Would
improving
ease-of-use make debian usable by the dead?
That is a very silly comment indeed.
So are
On Sun, Mar 21, 2004 at 09:08:46PM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
Yes, you should indeed complain about the "so easy your grandmother can
use it", but not because it discriminates against women; rather,
because it discriminates against men.
There is no substantive difference between the two, IMN
Jonathan Walther wrote:
> Yes, you should indeed complain about the "so easy your grandmother can
> use it", but not because it discriminates against women; rather,
> because it discriminates against men.
There is no substantive difference between the two, IMNSHO; I feel no need,
when pointing out
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
> IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous "so
> easy your grandmother can use it" references was, "why always the
> "grand*mother*?"
I remember talking to Susan about this and though my memory is a bit fuzzy
I thought her point w
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 03:30:32PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-03-20 00:12:26 + Benj. Mako Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous "so
> >easy your grandmother can use it" [...]
>
> Ignoring the sexism, it's still rather insensit
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 01:12:26AM +0100, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous "so
easy your grandmother can use it" references was, "why always the
"grand*mother*?" Fact is, these little references paint the person as
stupid, or unskilled, or som
On 2004-03-20 00:12:26 + Benj. Mako Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous "so
easy your grandmother can use it" [...]
Ignoring the sexism, it's still rather insensitive to some. Would
improving ease-of-use make debian usable by the
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 01:12:26AM +0100, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
> IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous "so
> easy your grandmother can use it" references was, "why always the
> "grand*mother*?" Fact is, these little references paint the person as
> stupid, or unskilled,
* Benj. Mako Hill ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous "so
> easy your grandmother can use it" references was, "why always the
> "grand*mother*?" Fact is, these little references paint the person as
> stupid, or unskilled, or somehow "weaker"
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 09:18:48PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
> > - On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
> > BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
>
> Well, that's probably because that's
Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
>> - On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
>> BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
I'd have used bosses -- come on, doesn't anyone read Dilbert?
I know specifically of
Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
> > - On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
> > BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
>
> Well, that's probably because that's empirically proven to be correct...
But p
Josip Rodin wrote:
> One just can't escape certain truths :)
Plonk! :-)
--
.''`. Yo también estaba en esos trenes. I was also on those trains
: :' :
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
`- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com
Listening to J
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
> - On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
> BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
Well, that's probably because that's empirically proven to be correct...
it's like saying "stop only mention
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
> On a side note, other real life examples.
> - At Debconf @ Toronto, BDale used grannies as examples of the worst
> kind of clueless users Debian should aim at. Susan happens to be a DD
> and a grannie, so he stood corrected, but refused m
Mike Beattie wrote:
> I'll only apologise to those that are unable to take such things with
> a grain of salt.
No need to apologise, really.
The talk was probably intended to be amusing and the overall tone was
light-hearted. But I want you to realize that this puts people off.
I even felt like w
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 01:30:08PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> We covered a number of the scripts in detail, and as a joke,
> included pictures of the girls the rest were named after. That portion
> of the talk just ended up as a soft-core slideshow though, and, to my
> mind, didn't come off as
On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 07:54:10PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> > > Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
> > But that talk did say many things. And I was not the only one offended
> > by it. It was extremely sexist. Debian looked like (and probably is) a
> > boys club.
> Could you perhaps
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 12:34:39AM +0100, Amaya wrote:
> Mike Beattie wrote:
> > Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life,
>
> Do you believe your talk @ Oslo was Real Life?
>
> > Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
>
> But that talk did say many things. And I was no
Mike Beattie wrote:
> Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life,
Do you believe your talk @ Oslo was Real Life?
> Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
But that talk did say many things. And I was not the only one offended
by it. It was extremely sexist. Debian looked l
Hi, Peter Samuelson wrote:
>> Yes, ok, but I wouldn't call it censorship... more, a type of
>> 'policing'.
>
> Mere matter of terminology. It *is* censorship.
Hmm... calling that "mere" glosses over some important differences in
meaning.
IMHO:
Censorship means controlling which ideas get propa
Hi, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
> pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
> you out?
Priceless.
*PLONK*.
--
Matthias Urlichs
Michael Poole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> If people must be rude to each other in counter-productive ways, could
> they please do it off-list? When "bullying" (to borrow the term used
> earlier in a related thread) moves from technical issues to personal
> attacks, it merely escalates problems.
Jonathan Walther writes:
> On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:26:23AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote:
>>
>>My suffering in this case was mostly caused by your posting, so
>>probably the best you could do to ease my pain would be to stop
>>contributing to this thread. Anyway, thanks for the offer, I really
>>app
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:26:23AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote:
Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
you out?
My suffering in this case was mostly caused by your posting, so
probably the best you
Jonathan Walther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
> pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
> you out?
My suffering in this case was mostly caused by your posting, so
probably the best you could do to
Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
you out?
Jonathan
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 08:07:53AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote:
Jonathan Walther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34
Jonathan Walther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> >On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
> >> Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the
> >> grand scheme of things it really doesn't
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the
grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what
people say or do. We canno
d script
kiddies be able to take free reign on #debian?
[Peter Samuelson]
<<...Others should do the same - and some do.>>
Agreed.
<>
I am afraid I have to throw a wobbly over the logic of
this passage. The title of my message that started
this thread was, "Some Comm
[Mike Beattie]
> [Posting to debian lists is like hitting your head against a brick
> wall. It feels good when you stop - so I will after this one]
Larry Wall: "What is the sound of Perl? Is it not the sound of the
wall that people have stopped banging their heads against?" (Sorry, it
has nothi
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 01:35:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
> [Posting to debian lists is like hitting your head against a brick wall. It
> feels good when you stop - so I will after this one]
>
> Yes, ok, but I wouldn't call it censorship... more, a type of 'policing'.
>
> We're not going to '
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:09:59AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote:
> > Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of
> > whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination
> > plan did not include censorship.
>
> Censorship is entirely appropriate when it comes
[Mike Beattie]
> Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of
> whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination
> plan did not include censorship.
Censorship is entirely appropriate when it comes to maintaining some
decorum in a forum such as IRC. Just
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:50:10PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
> Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of whatever
> one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not
> include censorship.
Way to resort to personal insults rather than respond to my a
[Matthew Hall]
> there are 12 operators in #debian, which means we expect each one to
> be present at least 2 unique hours per day, assuming the task is
> equally divided. In my opinion that is probably not enough for a
> channel with 600+ people and such extreme traffic levels
There are actually
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> That's absurd. People get kicked and banned for obvious trolling,
> crapflooding, and racist remarks. We can and we do control what people
> say or do, and we can do better.
Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicali
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
> Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the
> grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what
> people say or do. We cannot, and we will not.
That's absurd. People get kicked and ba
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 01:05:17PM -0800, Matthew Hall wrote:
[snip drivel]
> Next, I would like to say some words to those who have
> been saying that Debian doesn't discriminate against
> women. As far as IRC goes, IT DOES. ADMIT IT ALREADY.
> Every day the channel is filled with trolls and
[sn
Hello, my name is Matt R Hall. I am a student of
computer engineering and German at the University of
Pacific in Stockton, CA. IANAD (I Am Not A Developer),
so I reserve my comments specifically to the IRC
channel, where I have been present regularly since
1998 under the nickname "mhall."
I would
57 matches
Mail list logo
