On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 02:03:54PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> And around and around we go. Dash itself say it is not suitable for
> interactive use, and, bash is an Essential part of Debian.
Care to point me where dash says it is not suitable for interactive use?
the _Debian package_ de
On 25 Nov 2006 10:02:14 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Hubert Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> said:
>>
>> > My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can
>> > post a patch to provide alternative
On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 12:20:32PM -0800, Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Gabor Gombas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> Because it is _NOT_ a bug in bash, it is a feature. AFAIR (it was some
> >> time ago I've looked at the code trying to fix
Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Gabor Gombas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Because it is _NOT_ a bug in bash, it is a feature. AFAIR (it was some
>> time ago I've looked at the code trying to fix this issue) bash
>> guarantees some environment variables to always exist and to have a
>> c
On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 04:02:45PM +0100, Gabor Gombas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:22:06AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
>
> > This is an excellent example of doing the wrong thing, in my opinion.
> >
> > Why not fix the bash bug instead??
>
> Because it is _NOT_
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:22:06AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> This is an excellent example of doing the wrong thing, in my opinion.
>
> Why not fix the bash bug instead??
Because it is _NOT_ a bug in bash, it is a feature. AFAIR (it was some
time ago I've looked at the code trying to fi
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 04:04:39PM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> It's easier to eyeball packages that explicitly announce "bash".
> Those could be put to a stress test through:
It's also relatively trivial to just run through the archive, looking
for shell scripts and at least sh -n them from vari
On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 21:33 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > As I said, it is perfectly possible for a maintainer to write a script
> > which works on any shell and allows the user to pick at installation
> > time (heck, or even per-user!) which shell to use.
>
> How cool that would be to be asked 10
[Thomas Bushnell]
> Why not fix the bash bug instead??
Yes, I ask myself the same question. This bug was submitted as a bash
bug, and then passed on to the ldap library package by the bash
maintainer, and then passed back to bash and forwarded to upstream,
which never addressed it. No idea why t
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:20:07AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 09:51 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > > > Instead of focusing and hamm
On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 11:31 +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Thomas Bushnell]
> > I'm interested in why we should care at all. Perl is a far bigger space
> > hog than bash.
>
> Debian Edu had to switch /bin/sh from bash to dash to get shutdown to
> umount /usr/ when we use libnss-ldap (bug #1
On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 09:51 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > > > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> > >
This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> Stephen Gran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> > > "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> > > usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> > > bashis
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 03:54:05PM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Maybe bash should restrict its features when called sh... like gzip
> > changes its features when called gunzip, etc.
> I think this would complicate the bash's C-code base unnecessarily.
> The problem is not in the bash, but in the s
Stephen Gran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> > "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> > usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> > bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to sta
Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:51:37AM +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > And this is only possible if scripts use
> >
> > /bin/sh
> >
> > The /bin/sh could be any valid shell that provided the standard set
> > of features.
> >
> > Th
This one time, at band camp, Jari Aalto said:
> "Depends:" make dependency visible, whereas filing a wishlist is
> usually result of someone by accident finding the script to include
> bashism. He may offer a patch to convert those constructs to standard
> sh-way-of-doing-things.
>
> It's easier t
[Thomas Bushnell]
> I'm interested in why we should care at all. Perl is a far bigger space
> hog than bash.
Debian Edu had to switch /bin/sh from bash to dash to get shutdown to
umount /usr/ when we use libnss-ldap (bug #159771). Bash loads user
information using nss when it starts, and thus l
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:51:37AM +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And this is only possible if scripts use
>
> /bin/sh
>
> The /bin/sh could be any valid shell that provided the standard set
> of features.
>
> The installation system ("Essential") which sets /bin/sh to poin
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:02:14AM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Hubert Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >
> > > My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can post
> > > a patch to provide alternative solu
Hubert Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can post
> > a patch to provide alternative solution to a person who may not know
> > alternative constructs (having lea
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> >
> > Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on partic
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Somebody needs to explain to Jari the concept of a shared text segment.
>
Bash:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ grep 'Private_Dirty' /proc/$$/smaps | perl -e '$t = 0;
while (<>) { /(\d+) kB$/ or die "parse err: $_"; $t += $1 } print "tot: $t\n"'
tot: 2800
Dash:
$ grep 'P
On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can post
> a patch to provide alternative solution to a person who may not know
> alternative constructs (having learned only bashism).
Sorry, but I don't understand
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:54 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:09:49PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> > >
> > > Now the choice of 464kB or 4528kB on a desktop where
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:57 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> And why do you think that? please take a look at the RES values.
I know you don't understand it, because you just appealed to the RSS
values.
If many processes are sharing text, they all get accounted with the size
of the resident text in the
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
>
> Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on particular shell.
I can't tell what you mean. There is nothing
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 21:08 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> > You can use whatever bashisms you like when you're working
> > interactively, that won't hinder dash from executing shells on boot and
> > elsewhere. Using bashisms in scripts does howe
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 21:08 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> You can use whatever bashisms you like when you're working
> interactively, that won't hinder dash from executing shells on boot and
> elsewhere. Using bashisms in scripts does however cause a problem.
I think it's time to realize that "
On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 11:10:19AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:56 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scri
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:54 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:09:49PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> >
> > Now the choice of 464kB or 4528kB on a desktop where you're actually
> > using the shell for interactive things is
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:56 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> > > scripts.
> >
> > Exactly the *point*. So why isn't this
Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >> To be frank, I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck.
> >> Basically, you're trying to move bash into the same category as awk,
> >> where it's not explic
Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> To be frank, I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck.
>> Basically, you're trying to move bash into the same category as awk,
>> where it's not explicitly essential and can be handled by something
>> akin
On 23 Nov 2006 01:15:28 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit
> requirement for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages
> "need" bash to make them work. someone may then provide a patch to
> "make bash go away". I sugge
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:42:45 +0100, Bill Allombert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 01:15:28AM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
>> I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit
>> requirement for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages
>> "need" bash to make the
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:41:08PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> Most hardware that was nice and shiny back in 2002 wasn't exactly
> underpowered, seeing as the Pentium 4 and Athlon Palomino was what was
> used back then. So, I kind of doubt that the statement was concerning
> Woody. Try Potato
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 20:46 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> > Well, let's hope people don't use any of the non-SuSv3 features of cat
> > in their shell scripts...
>
> Why? Who cares?
>
> This is some huge amount of work for some very little be
David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:09:49PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
>
> Now the choice of 464kB or 4528kB on a desktop where you're actually
> using the shell for interactive things is probably not a big deal,
> personally I'd never use dash, posh,
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> > scripts.
>
> Exactly the *point*. So why isn't this your target?
>
> > Some prefer bash and see no problems. Others co
David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 11:20:03AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> > On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> > > scripts.
> >
> > Exactly the *point*. So why i
Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> To be frank, I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck. Basically,
> you're trying to move bash into the same category as awk, where it's not
> explicitly essential and can be handled by something akin t
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 20:07 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:49:10PM +0100, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> > [snip]
> > >
> > > There's a difference between requiring maintainer scripts to say
> > > /bin/bash if they n
"Martijn van Oosterhout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 23 Nov 2006 13:43:52 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> There's a difference between requiring maintainer scripts to say
> /bin/bash if they need bash constructs and rewriting existing scripts
> to work with some generic shel
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 11:56:48AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 20:46 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> > Well, let's hope people don't use any of the non-SuSv3 features of cat
> > in their shell scripts...
>
> Why? Who cares?
Well, be honest. Have you ever used any
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 20:46 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> Well, let's hope people don't use any of the non-SuSv3 features of cat
> in their shell scripts...
Why? Who cares?
This is some huge amount of work for some very little benefit.
Thomas
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitall
Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ, I'm CC'ing - please tell if you'd rather read the list.
I read the list (both of them); no need to cc.
> I agree. Your suggestion solves this for all parties. The policy stays
> intact, but the underlying dependencies need an improvement. The proble
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 04:42:45PM +0100, Bill Allombert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 01:15:28AM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit
> > requirement for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages
> > "need" bash to
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 11:20:03AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> > scripts.
>
> Exactly the *point*. So why isn't this your target?
>
> > Some prefer bash and see no
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 11:23:23AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 13:50 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > I'm not suggesting to remove features from essential, but I think the
> > policy should take the shells as special case, because the
> > sh-compliances (SusV/POSIX) itself
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 20:07 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:49:10PM +0100, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > There's a difference between requiring maintainer scripts to say
> > /bin/bash if they need bash constructs and rewriting existing scripts
> > to wor
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 13:50 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> I'm not suggesting to remove features from essential, but I think the
> policy should take the shells as special case, because the
> sh-compliances (SusV/POSIX) itself is a matter of its own. There are
> no viable alternative implementation of
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> scripts.
Exactly the *point*. So why isn't this your target?
> Some prefer bash and see no problems. Others consider bash's memory
> consumption a problem when compared to o
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:49:10PM +0100, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
[snip]
>
> There's a difference between requiring maintainer scripts to say
> /bin/bash if they need bash constructs and rewriting existing scripts
> to work with some generic shell. The former is going to be *much*
> easier.
On 23 Nov 2006 13:43:52 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bash is not essential for running Debian. It is possible to run old
PCs and old laptops completely free of bash. The point here is not the
disk consumption, but the reduced memory constrainsts. When scripts
are written with only
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:54:46PM +0100, Bill Allombert wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:41:08PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> >
> > And compared to dash, the difference is vast:
> >
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 80200 2006-11-21 16:36 /bin/dash
> >
> > RSS for dash on sid seems to be 464kB.
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:41:08PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
>
> And compared to dash, the difference is vast:
>
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 80200 2006-11-21 16:36 /bin/dash
>
> RSS for dash on sid seems to be 464kB. No woody to compare with.
dash in woody was still called ash.
Cheers,
--
B
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:09:49PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 06:37:52PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> > Somehow I doubt that you used today's version of bash (which I bet
> > is a lot bigger and more memory-consuming due to new features).
>
> Comparing bash fro
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 06:37:52PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> Somehow I doubt that you used today's version of bash (which I bet
> is a lot bigger and more memory-consuming due to new features).
Comparing bash from woody and sid, respectively:
-rwxr-xr-x root/root511400 2002-04-08 21:07
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 09:16:15AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 13:43 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> >
> > Bash is not essential for running Debian. It is possible to run old
> > PCs and old laptops completely free of bash. The point here is not the
> > disk consumption, b
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 13:43 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> >
> > Bash is not essential for running Debian. It is possible to run old
> > PCs and old laptops completely free of bash. The point here is not the
> > disk consumption, but the reduced memor
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 13:43 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
>
> Bash is not essential for running Debian. It is possible to run old
> PCs and old laptops completely free of bash. The point here is not the
> disk consumption, but the reduced memory constrainsts. When scripts
> are written with only "sh" i
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 01:15:28AM +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit
> requirement for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages
> "need" bash to make them work. someone may then provide a patch to
> "make bash go away". I suggest removin
Marvin Renich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> * Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [061123 06:56]:
> >
> > But for the shells there are. I think the Policy should exempt shells
> > and require that if package is not POSIX/Susv -compiant, it needs to
> > announce dependance on a particular shell -- wher
* Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [061123 06:56]:
>
> But for the shells there are. I think the Policy should exempt shells
> and require that if package is not POSIX/Susv -compiant, it needs to
> announce dependance on a particular shell -- where it bash, tcsh,
> pdksh ..., if it uses those shells
Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit requirement
> > for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages "need" bash to make
> > them work. someone may then provide a patch to "make ba
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 01:15 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> >
> > I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit
> > requirement for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages
> > "need" bash to make them work. someone may then prov
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 01:15 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
>
> I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit
> requirement for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages
> "need" bash to make them work. someone may then provide a patch to
> "make bash go away". I suggest removing th
Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I would drop that "special" case and always require explicit requirement
> for the shell. It's more clear to see which packages "need" bash to make
> them work. someone may then provide a patch to "make bash go away".
This would conflict with Policy 3.5, w
Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Okay, here's try number two. I tried to incorporate the feedback from
> various people. Please critique.
>
> --- debian-policy-3.7.2.2/policy.sgml 2006-10-02 15:36:50.0 -0700
> +++ /home/eagle/dvl/policy/policy.sgml2006-11-20 22:35:59.0
> Okay, here's try number two. I tried to incorporate the feedback from
> various people. Please critique.
Other than wanting the 'echo -n' and -a/-o bits to go away, I think this
looks pretty good.
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