o one agrees. :-)
JC> I don't agree with you. => I'd say it's got a nice consensus.
JC> Anyone who cares has weighed in and their objection (which was
JC> mine too) that we had yet to see such an example was resolved.
I had a question about Joey's proposa
examples of an architecture-specific example
file? Maybe I haven't been following this thread closely enough,
because I've only seen discussion of ``what-if'' scenarios.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
several packages
have already moved to /usr/share/doc. Perhaps if we could get them to
declare dependencies on a newer base-files, we could solve the problem
without too much sludge.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom a
ssignment should be made.
Informal assignments are probably fine: something like ``by submitting
a proposal, you agree to assign your changes to Software in the Public
Interest, Inc.''
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
it's so important to be FHS-compliant
on this issue? Why not just change the few /usr/share/doc packages
back to /usr/doc,
ln -s /usr/doc /usr/share/doc # FHS compatibility
and be done with it?
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Comm
>>>>> Joseph Carter writes:
JC> [1 ] On Fri, May 07, 1999 at
JC> 01:59:44PM -0600, Gordon Matzigkeit wrote:
>> As a note, RMS just wrote me back:
JC> Would you mind posting the whole email?
From: Richard Stallman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the fi
esn't have the
same stigma as `non-pure'.
Seeing as I've already said too much about these ideas, would somebody
else please submit a proposal?
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
and change the DFSG accordingly
[3] ACCEPT freedom to boycott, but only change the definition of `main'
[1] ACCEPT freedom to boycott, but only create a `pure' subset of `main'
[ ] REJECT freedom to boycott, and maintain the status quo
[ ] REJECT freedom to boycott, and ban all futu
>>>>> Manoj Srivastava writes:
MS> I wish Alex were around.
Who's Alex?
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
tions. What is the
process for doing such a thing?
Thanks for your comments,
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
e my anger at his irrational condescension. Note
my carefully-measured use of obscenity in order to try to help get him
out of his rut.
6) Read the little phrase I attach to the bottom left hand corner of
every e-mail I write.
7) Read as many other of my messages as you'd like. Decide f
ilitate their clarity).
MS> (If it helps, I shall formally call this proposal a troll).
Does it have offensive emotional content?
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
>>>>> Joey Hess writes:
JH> Gordon Matzigkeit wrote:
>> Some software in main is totally useless to me because my
>> computers don't send/receive *any* information to/from non-free
>> software, and they run all the software in main.
>>
>&g
gorization of
packages that are free for the rest of the world.
I'll second that, as soon as it clears the BTS.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
he UI of the clients and the number of
IL> servers.
Check out HCP, which is totally free:
http://205.241.209.107/HCP/about.html
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
gt; I'm going to unsubscribe until the dust settles and everybody is
JM> friends again.
To my knowledge, nobody's ceased being my friend. I treat all my
friends this way. I treat my enemies this way, too. Egalitarian, I
call it. ;)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]&
#x27;ll
stop.
So, Peter, I've said all this to try to explain why it is I thought
you were overly harsh in singling me out for criticism. Perhaps you
assumed that just because I was aware of what Joseph's doing, it meant
that I wasn't hurt and angry? Wrong. I am not a cold-blooded flamer;
I am a self-aware, passionate flamer.
Sheesh. Nuff said.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
cate the Debian folks about censorship like
that! I'll play the queer to your straight man any time! (Except in
bed... I'm a happily married heterosexual.) :)
Thanks for writing. I enjoy talking about things like this.
Fuck censorship. Viva la revolution!
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
>>>>> Robert Woodcock writes:
RW> Gordon Matzigkeit wrote:
>> [Note: I'm not advocating tossing packages out of `main', I'm
>> arguing that we should make a symlinked-to-`main' distro called
>> `pure'. See my proposal.]
RW>
(for not apologizing).
I bet that you (dear reader) will never forget to be extra polite,
understanding, gentle, and rational when you reply to my messages, now
that you understand how easily provoked I am.
I also bet that nobody on this list will idolize me, if they ever did
in the first
#x27;d be surprised if the author actually accepted patches to change
word2x to do that, though. ;)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
will have "holy,
BC> pure, main, dusty, dirty, trash, non-free, pure-evil, and
BC> satanic" sections.
Hrmm... we wouldn't need `satanic', since it would only contain
Beelzebub, which is a single binary. Actually, neither `pure-evil'
nor `satanic' wouldn&#x
tant, because it points out deficiencies in
`contrib + main'.
The day that all software is free software, `pure' will be the only
distribution we need to do absolutely everything with our computers.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
>>>>> Karl M Hegbloom writes:
KMH> I apologize to the harumpfers who can't tolerate my ocasional
KMH> flippant episodes...
I quite like 'em. Keep it up.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to
lso read documents produced by software found
in `main'. Otherwise, that reader *requires* non-main software (MS
Word) in order to be useful.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
ist-members to send a TROLL
to DEBIAN-POLICY, then step back and watch the resulting FLAMEWAR to
their own amusement. One of us will simply call `TROLL', and then
force the others to convert their TROLL into a FORMAL message, or drop
it entirely.
I hereby request seconders for this PROPOSAL
ojects, rather than ones which benefit non-free
software producers.
HP> 4. Pick the best plan.
I'm presenting only one plan, which I think is the best one.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
onal, it's because nobody's given
him a well-thought-out argument, or because they aren't interested in
actually listening to him.
>> Maybe you shouldn't decide on how you're going to vote, until you
>> actually read the polished proposal (which hasn't even been
>> written yet) lest you be forced to eat some humble pie.
JC> As long as the proposal is based on what I consider a flawed
JC> premise, I couldn't support it.
That's fine. Just be prepared for a premise that you initially
thought was flawed to turn out to be sound.
>> Don't get me wrong... I've had lots and lots of that ego-crushing
>> pie in the past, but at least I'm trying to understand where
>> others come from, including you. The anger that I'm expressing at
>> you is equally directed at myself, for the times I act like the
>> asshole you're acting like right now.
JC> It could be worse: I could be an asshole about it and also be
JC> wrong. =>
Sorry to say, but you're being an asshole about it, and you're also
wrong. ;)
Reread what I actually proposed about `pure' with an open mind, ask
straightforward, non-combative questions about it if there's something
in it you disagree with, and then we'll discuss about the
implications.
Until then, may you sleep with a burr up your butt, so that you don't
become a *complacent* wrong asshole, which is *far* worse. I actually
quite like argumentative wrong assholes like you are right now,
because you give me a chance to vent. Now I'll sleep soundly. :)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
an't have a working
computer without a BIOS, so it's silly to argue about the usefulness
of lilo on a computer that doesn't have a BIOS.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
'll get the source anyway. ;)
You may think that you're a human being, but really, you're just a
blip in the global economy. We blips have to consciously work
together if we want to rule the economy rather than have it rule us.
Capiche?
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
27;t value their
opinions highly enough to try to understand where they're coming from
before you flame.
Maybe you shouldn't decide on how you're going to vote, until you
actually read the polished proposal (which hasn't even been written
yet) lest you be forced to eat some
w having a free client implementation
MS> is any dofferent from the early days of GNU, when everyhing
MS> needed an non-free OS to run on.
This is a point worth addressing in a separate mail, so I'll do that.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
100.0% (entirely standalone)
main 99.7% (talks to the enemy)
contrib 50.0% (breeds with the enemy)
non-free 0.1% (hell, at least it's *software*)
Maybe a better name for `pure' would be `holy', which simply means
`set apart.&#x
to be set on the
GM> command line.
I agree with Guy here.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
.0% (entirely standalone)
main 99.7% (talks to the enemy)
contrib 99.5% (breeds with the enemy)
non-free 0.1% (hell, at least it's *software*)
Maybe a better name for `pure' would be `holy', which simply means
`set apart.' ;)
ke ABI dependencies into consideration. These changes will allow
people such as yourself to start new `ports' to a different ABI, while
reusing the existing packages as much as possible.
I don't know anything about the rest of the issues you bring up,
though.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[E
>>>>> Marcus Brinkmann writes:
MB> Okay, this can be addressed when the need arises. i3856 is the a
MB> short cut for i386-pc in the meantime.
i3856? Were you just typing too fast, or do you know something I
don't? ;)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PRO
tly. And so, I'm in the process of designing an experimental
`hwarch' package which encapsulates all the Provides that the package
system needs to know about the physical machine.
Thanks for your comments: they definitely explore my ideas to their
logical conclusion.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
MB> What about gdb?
Yes, you are right. I just wanted to point out that there will
probably be more packages that have no kernel dependency than ones
that do.
MB> I am looking forward to read your draft for an proposal!
Good! I'll be sure to put it together as soon as I have time. :)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
d having the freedom to say things that may or may not
sound like one is speaking for others is an important part of that.
Fuck Political Correctness! Viva la Revolution! ;)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
for pointing this out. I'll integrate it in the policy
proposal I'm writing.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
rch.
I'll just say one word, and leave it at that: bytecodes.
>> I think that an essential required base package should Provide the
>> default hwarch. Maybe that package should be `base-files'?
BM> I think base-files currently has architecture set to "all"...
h-hurd-i386
Then, the Hurdish dpkg would choose `hwarch-hurd-i386'.
Once we deal with the remaining dinstall issues, then we can drop
`hwarch-hurd-i386', and have the Hurdish dpkg choose `hwarch-i386'
That will be a pretty major commitment from many Debian developers
(especially
Okay, I agree.
The next version of GRUB will install its data files into /lib, to
honour existing conventions.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
gree with you, but I really prefer `hwarch-' to `cpu-', since the
CPU does not an Architecture make.
BM> When the source package is compiled, the appropriate items from
BM> the "Nonshared-depends" would get moved to "Depends".
Or, equivalently, the `||&#
x-all: linux
binary-hurd-all: hurd
binary-all: [default]
It would be nice to change dinstall so that we can create new distros
on the fly, but I think that's asking too much for an initial
proposal.
Seconders?
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
[Okay, I'm getting overexcited. I'll just shut up now, since I'm
going on vacation for the next three days. ;)]
>>>>> Gordon Matzigkeit writes:
I should have though more before I wrote. Here's what I *meant* to say:
No package needs Conflicts and Repl
They are just shorthands for
Provides (given that two packages cannot Provide the same thing, which
I assume is the current implementation):
A Conflicts B == A Provides C, B Provides C
A Replaces B == A Provides B
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
>>>>> Marcus Brinkmann writes:
MB> When the heard does emulate these calls, we can provide "Linux",
MB> done.
Talk about quantum correlation. I misspelled Linux, and you
misspelled Hurd. ;)
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG
Whoa, Nellie! I shoulda proofread my message one more time before
sending. ;)
>>>>> Gordon Matzigkeit writes:
Gord> Kernels other than Linuk are *not* second-class citizens.
Sorry folks, this was the *one* time I've ever made a typo when
spelling _Linux_. No offense w
soname.
I believe that's just a matter of time, and so I want to plan ahead so
that the transition is easier for the Debian GNU/Hurd folks. Our
(Hurd folks') work will resemble a cross between the libc5->libc6
transition and Great X Reorganization, all in one.
With dpkg and dinstall's
a separate `libhurd' or `liblinux' that would
contain the ABI-incompatible parts. If programs depended on either of
those libraries, they could not be shared, but the rest would be
portable between ABIs.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
linux-libc6), and
want to duplicate less work.
B> Thinking about it, it would also be nice to have
B> /debian/link-farm/dists/slink/required/... and similar. :)
Agreed.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
ng of dinstall (for one), but it would
benefit a lot of things, and simplify dpkg's internals.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
ith unusual architecture demands (such as packages
that can run under emulation on multiple conflicting ``base
architectures'').
I haven't thought too much about this, and I don't have the time to
elaborate much more fully... I just wanted to publicize my idea so
that it does
Waiting will take too long. Either we change now, or we decide not to
change for the forseeable future (perhaps decades).
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Lovers of freedom, unite! \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
[Unfortunately, www.fig.org is broken. Please stay tuned for details.]
issed. Thanks for reading the fine
print.
JR> GPL applied to documentation ensures the content is free, or
JR> doesn't it?
Yes, it does.
JR> What`s the point with another license?
It makes the intent of the author more obvious, for those who don't
think about the full im
law. See Michael Stutz's essay (above
URL) for more details, as his argument is quite well-constructed.
--
Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/)
Lovers of freedom, unite! \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
Copyright (C) 1998 FIG
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