>>>>> Joseph Carter writes: >> Free ICQ clients fail this requirement, because on such a network, >> there wouldn't be any servers, so it would be silly to claim that >> they work ``just as well''.
JC> ICQ is a _DOCUMENTED_ protocol. The clients couldn't have been JC> written freely without that documentation could they? There are JC> also at least two projects working to create free ICQ servers, JC> one of them actually has an alpha quality server. Then package that server in `main', and I'll be happy. If it isn't in `main', then I think it's worthwhile to make a clear distinction that free ICQ clients aren't useful in an isolated network running only Debian. Without that distinction, I get the gut-wrenching feeling of finding cool-looking software on my main-only system, getting excited about it, then discovering after 2 *wasted* hours of investigation, that it's totally useless without a proprietary server. Kinda like how I got excited about some packages I saw in `contrib', but then found out they depended on `non-free'. I got burned once, and learned my lesson: now I just totally ignore `contrib', and I'll never, ever, maintain a `contrib' package on behalf of Debian. JC> Based on that you did not know this (and I didn't either prior to JC> this coming up) I believe this adiquate proof that you don't know JC> about every single free software project in existance. ... but I know plenty about every single free software project bundled in Debian's main, and that's all we're talking about. $ less /var/lib/dpkg/available I'm a naive user. If it's not in Debian, FAIP, it doesn't exist. JC> It is also my theory that not one single person does. Someone JC> who does not know about every free software project in existance JC> or even about most of them is at best a pathetic judge of whether JC> or not such free software exists. But their judgement matters a helluva lot when they *administer* their system. If they don't know something exists, and can't easily find it can we honestly fault them for complaining that the `gtkicq' package is totally useless because they're on a network that doesn't run any non-free software? Isn't `contrib' *designed* to help these kinds of people out? If members of the Project vote that it isn't, then I've proposed making a new category. JC> You're free to propose this, but like James' proposal it's going JC> to require a vote. Sure, whatever. Branden and James didn't propose anything, either. That's why neither of us understands the argumentative reaction we're getting. The point of discussing this on debian-policy is so that we can *constructively* refine the ideas. Flames don't help anybody. JC> I suppose once the logo issue is settled we could put it to a JC> vote if the ideas' sponsors really want to, but I intend to vote JC> AGAINST any such arbitrary decisions of softwares' usefulness. I'm glad to know that you have an open mind, and enjoy participating in the stepwise refinement of crude ideas that were put forward by people who have a different perspective than you do. The fact that the likes of James Troup and Branden Robinson *care* about this idea should be a BIG HINT that maybe, just *maybe* it might have some hidden shred of merit. Obviously you don't value their opinions highly enough to try to understand where they're coming from before you flame. Maybe you shouldn't decide on how you're going to vote, until you actually read the polished proposal (which hasn't even been written yet) lest you be forced to eat some humble pie. Don't get me wrong... I've had lots and lots of that ego-crushing pie in the past, but at least I'm trying to understand where others come from, including you. The anger that I'm expressing at you is equally directed at myself, for the times I act like the asshole you're acting like right now. -- Gordon Matzigkeit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> //\ I'm a FIG (http://www.fig.org/) Committed to freedom and diversity \// I use GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
