for my proposals, I think I'd do it this way:
> > 1. Define exactly what requirements must be met
> for JVM to be able
> > to _legally_ provide java-virtual-machine,
> java*-runtime etc.
>
> Then we can agree on that.
ople some graphs, to
track progress, too ;) There is a perl script in the
japhar CVS that can convert the output from mauve into
html.
Unfortunately, I can't do it. Most importantly because
I'm a regular kaffe developer. I'd prefer to see
someone more "vendor-independant
ld provide
additional insurance to the users that the free VMs
they got on their debian systems actually work for
something ;)
The downsides are probably many. As I said, I am not a
debian developer, so I don't know if putting this
additional burden of work on the maintainers
m not a debian maintainer, just a casual user, so
my ideas should be treated with a big grain of salt.
Choose what works best for debian and maintainers like
yourself.
cheers,
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orks out of the box,
and implementing all the missing functionality in all
the free VMs out there ;)
I assume (i.e. I don't know, and I don't feel like
digging through years of debian-java archives) that
prior to having a unified javax-runtime, debian has
used a system like that. Why was
7;s code means you can't contribute to clean room
efforts any more, so I one has to pick sides: help Blackdown with Sun's code,
or help clean-room efforts to write powerpc jits [1] ;)
[1] Kaffe-based JanosVM 1.0 has the beginning of a powerpc jitter.
cheers,
dalibor topic
___
Salut Arnaud,
thanks for making an updated package for kaffe. Did you manage to get in touch
with Ean?
--- Arnaud Vandyck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thenewupstreamreleasecloses #196867(Kaffe1.1.0
> available). According to Dalibor Topic (in the same bug
of time project, i believe that
time would be better spent persuading the FSF and ASF to get together on their
licenses and make either the GPL ASL compatible or the other way round. who
kknows, maybe you won't waste the time and they get their ideals/egos out of
the way and work out a compromi
its the community most is to get ASF and FSF to agree on
mutually compatible licenses.
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start by looking
there.
But ... the FSF doesn't think that code licensed under a GPL incompatible
license can be allowed to run on a GPLd VM (i.e. kaffe). So it may not be what
debian wants/needs ;)
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omes with kaffe), or jikes. The
simplest way to do it is to do
ant -Dbuild.compiler=kjc
though you can also store these settings in a .*rc file for ant, I think.
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with a sub
cript snippet.
Then you don't want to use a free virtual machine. you want to use Sun. There
is no certified Java free VM and there won't be as long as sun's licensing
policy doesn't change. As long as you don't have a certified java runtime, you
can forget about not failing
rying to get the rest covered by
merging in other people's great GPL-compatible work into kaffe. javax.crypto is
going to be problematic because of american ammunnition export laws, I guess.
cheers,
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e first step. The second step is a permission based security
architecture, with policy files, code signing and all that. There is no such
thing in the free software java world (yet). Glasspath has laid some
foundations , though.
cheers,
dalibor topic
-j2sdk, will
> make them at least useable from debian packages. Without any
> improvment, it will become more and more messy, the more API changes
> are between the original java2-runtime and, for example, 1.5.
Yeah, but I don't really care about sun's java packages ;) If the
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> I will still ask, that all 'java' alteratives (kaffe, gcj, etc) will
> >> add as much API to their bootclasspath as possible.
> >I can only spea
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >but the other, much greater part of the problem is application writers who
> >assume that the whole world uses sun's jdk. Thus they muck around with
> >$JAV
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >but the other, much greater part of the problem is application writers who
> >assume that the whole world uses sun's jdk. Thus they muck around with
> >$JAV
Hi Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >thanks for taking the time to write a well thought-out, and pointed
> >response. I wasn't sure whether my reply was a bit vitriolic ;)
>
> :) This discussion i
ght to call it an 'API' ;)
If an application uses anything beyound the java programming APIs, it is not
portable by definition, not even between different releases by Sun. It may work
by sheer luck, but it doesn't have to. As I said, sun has changed their 'API'
to java and java
that freedom is better than temporary comfort ;) Read up on
some of the GNU philosophy on the gnu.org web pages, that should be a good
start to learn more about the value of freedom as in speech ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> Just a short reply. I'm running out of time... :) And BTW: no need to
> CC me. I hope I have set the required headers...
Sorry about the CC:, I use to hit the reply all button automatically ;)
writing useful bug reports are also great ways to
contribute. Or participating in creation of a new java policy for debian ;)
cheers,
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Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> * makes all our packages working with every JVM, which will run it:
> >> . free ones
> >> . unfree ones by a well defined API and a installer scri
am, but java.
By the way, how is C# handled in debian? They should have a similar set of
problems: several incomplete free runtimes and an unfree commercial one.
cheers,
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s javac
> behaviour, so it should make more existing scripts work out of the box
> on Debian.
-bootclasspath is somewhat tricky. I'm not sure how to do this with kjc, which
is intergrated into kaffe.
cheers,
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Ciao Stefano,
Freenet releases that don't use NIO should run on latest kaffe (1.1.1), as well
as Mark Wielaard's java bittorrent client snark.
cheers,
dalibor topic
--- MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Stefano Maffulli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked me the following quest
lasspath can increase application startup
time, since the java API spec requires the system class loader to search
linearly through the bootclasspath, system extensions, and the classpath. So
I'd recommend against a default classpath setting.
cheers,
dalibor topic
___
lasspath can increase application startup
time, since the java API spec requires the system class loader to search
linearly through the bootclasspath, system extensions, and the classpath. So
I'd recommend against a default classpath setting.
cheers,
dalibor topic
___
ffe/2002-August/040251.html for some
information on different interpretations. As I said, it's up to debian-legal to
figure out whether your bootclasspath scripts don;t violate licenses, IANAL.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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with a jar tool written in C or C++ called fastjar. Kaffe comes with
a jar tool written in java called, well, jar.
cheers,
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Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> So when I write
> >> kaffe -bootclasspath xerces.jar .. -cp ... Main
> >> I can't do it, because its against the GPL/whetever License?
> >I
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> A precise interface should be discussed together. Off my head:
> >> -classpath, -cp, -sourcepath, -O, -d, -g, -deprecation
> >I'd remove a few thi
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> Packages, which want to contribute a alternative for /usr/bin/java and its
> >> manpage must provide java-runtime. The alternative must accept the option
f abstract APIs write down what works. If it doesn't
work, let people who need it to work investigate, and get in touch with the
developers to fix the problems.
cheers,
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too ...
I think that codifying a status quo is such a good idea. It makes the policy
obsolete quite quickly. I'd prefer a policy that tells maintainers to
explicitely tells maintainers to test their packages with free VMs and mark
those that work.
cheers,
dalibor topic
_
ists.debian.org/debian-java/2003/debian-java-200301/msg3.html
If the packages need java, the executable, they should use whatever 'java' is
in the PATH. If they need it to load
sun.only.dedicated.morons.use.this.api.Main, then they are broken and need to
be fixed. There
nking stuff into a fake JAVA_HOME
> structure.
I doubt it. JAVA_HOME isn't specified anywhere by Sun AFAIK, nor what should be
in there, or how it should work. It's just a part of the ugly java folklore,
like trigraphs in C. ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
__
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL states
> >> that such things happen when you use JNI with GPL code. Anyway, I'm
> >&g
hem,
> probably in their JVM/classpath packages.
Wouldn't it be better to provide the wrappers as separate jikes-on-xyz
packages, that would depend on both jikes and the VM/classpath package? jikes
could depend on any one of the wrapper packages being installed, if that's
possible with
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >And finally, what's the effect of -classpath a.jar:b.jar supposed to
> >be? How does it alter the class lookup? What about the current
> >directory? Is
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >If the packages need java, the executable, they should use whatever 'java'
> is
> >in the PATH. If they need it to load
> >sun.only.dedicated.moro
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >I doubt it. JAVA_HOME isn't specified anywhere by Sun AFAIK, nor what should
> be
> >in there, or how it should work. It's just a part of the ug
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> I wanted to say, that you have a interface for the 'unfree' ones and
> this interface will work, even if you have 'not working' JVM
> installed. Th
Hi Matt,
--- Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 11:11:06AM -0700, Dalibor Topic wrote:
>
> > > I used to be very busy/without net during last months but I am back.
> > > And attacking ;-)
> > >
> > > The problem
is system
> prevents to mistake kaffe for a sun compatible JVM-1.4.
Could you elaborate on this one, as in give an example where kaffe can be
mistaken for Sun's JVM 1.4 why such protection is needed?
cheers,
dalibor topic
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to fix it. That's currently happening between freenet, gcj and kaffe developer
communities, for example. I hope the result will be a very good java.nio
implementation.
I think the best thing about free software, is the opportunity to collaborate
freely with others to build something exci
icy is an improvement to the old situation.
Who knows, one day I may end up being a Debian developer instead of just being
a user, and then I don't want to have to install non-free software to make sure
that my packages work with it, because of a policy that mandates using non-free
sowtware
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >Why do you assume familiarity with some command line synopsis? The effect of
> >-classpath a.jar:b.jar for example can have different effects depending on
> the
>
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> [rant about JAVA_HOME]
> >I don't think that's a good foundation to build a policy on ;)
>
> Is the current proposal better?
Much better, actually, althou
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> I wanted to say, that you have a interface for the 'unfree' ones and
> >> this interface will work, even if you have 'not working' JVM
>
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> I much for this, but it will need 'protection', so that this system
> >> prevents to mistake kaffe for a sun compatible JVM-1.4.
> >Could you e
s software is available by the debian
> packaging system.
How do you want to provide the unfree VMs if you don't force the user to
download a bunch of packages? Should they be linked into the kernel? ;)
I don't see what is so hard about installing kaffe, or sable VM, or whatever
Yuck. What does this tools.jar provide?
nothing in the API spec. Some badly written packages use it to access internal
classes of Sun's implementation, even though Sun tells them not to. And then
the cry goes to free VMs to support such braindead code, since everyone (i.e.
eally useful for main is it?
>
> IMO, it isn't fit for main yet: the javadoc task won't work if kaffe
> doesn't link a bin/javadoc into java.home. Thats at least how I read
> the code. Stefan, have you tried that?
kaffe doesn't come with a real javadoc tool yet. I&
ent the undocumented
classes, because, well, they are undocumented and are not part of the API. ;)
cheers,
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the bin/java unfree interfaces.
bzzt! ;)
this 'let's make free software in debian depend on non-free software' proposal
is incompatible with debian's goal, afaik. turn that into a 'may depend on the
unfree interfaces ' and I'll be happier with it.
In other ne
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >The definition of what's to be expected as normal keeps changing all the
> time
> >in the java world, as I'm trying to make clear with my questions on your
> >in
just backport the build
> >tools also?
>
> Yes, but why should I if I have a full sun J2SDK installed already?
Why does that matter? I have a car already, why don't they build a highway to
my house? ;)
> Just for the sake of downloading 10+ MB again?
It will hardly matter c
ith. They should support the VMs that work with their
packages.
I mean, I like kaffe, for example, but I don't demand that debian makes a
policy that requires all java package maintainers to support my favorite VM. If
I care about running a particular application of kaffe, I don't see
x27;t think we are that far apart from each other. I believe the
discussion on debian-java has been quite fruitful so far in exposing some
weaknesses of the proposals and paving the road to improvements (and Jan has
done a great job on improving the policy proposal when the arguments from the
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> Ok, I'm also good at philosophical nitpicking :)
Great! :)
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > [...working ant...]How do you define normall
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> '/usr/bin/java'. If sablevm and kaffe are installed and I depend on
> >> kaffe, but sablevm installs a higher priority, then I'm fd up.
&g
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> [kdelibs4 problems]
> >> all cases to '1', but the latest qt version in unstable is '2'. I don't
> >> think that anyone bothers to t
Hallo Jan,
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >> I don't do it. I just see the need, that some people will want to run
> >> java apps on a unfree VM. This propsal makes this possible.
> >But it is a
yes, but as a free java environment developer, I'm biased ;) Though I
don't think it should be a severe bug preventing a package from entering
testing.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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> strength to bug reports to include another VM.
I think that's a good compromise. I'd make it a 'must', though, for quality
assurance reasons.
cheers,
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Konichiwa Takashi,
--- Takashi Okamoto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: JAVA_HOME and ant
> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
> > I think the code in question (javadoc task) is going to be rewritten to use
&g
m, so don't expect some bigger 'answer
> round' or a updated proposal during the next two days. I'll be back on
> friday evening or the weekend...
Good luck for your exam, I'm looking forward for a new round of discussion next
week.
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >G
--- Jan Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo Dalibor,
>
> * Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >I don't think you could force a maintainer to include a VM in his
> >package list, as you can't force packagers to trust people ('so it
> >works, eh? did you
If anything breaks, please work with the maintainers
and the upstream to fix it. Debian should be the best platform to use java on,
and you can help this effort by making sure your package doesn't break things.'
But all in all, I must say that the policy has turned out quite nice faster
t
I wouldn't mandate that a VM has a include/something dir. Instead the policy
shoudl advise programs building with JNI to include both $JAVA_HOME/include/
and $JAVA_HOME/include/linux if the build process is supported with sun's JDK.
cheers,
dalibor topic
ill-defined ad-hoc 'standard' that isn't even
supported by Sun. Programs that rely on JAVA_HOME to be able to access
internals of the VM are inherently broken, they just start to notice it on free
VMs ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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]/msg03287.html . Make sure
you read the whole thread.
It should also run with the upcoming kaffe 1.1.2.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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when an application doesn't run, it's not because someone
forgot to set -Xmx128M, but because some amateur programmer checked in
some code that uses sun.* classes, and sun changed their internals in
the meantime.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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to do the work? then the VM package maintainers could independently
update 'findjava-kaffe' from 'findjava-sablevm', while keeping the
calling interface for the main 'findjava' script.
cheers,
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Hi Ean,
thanks for your quick reply!
Ean Schuessler wrote:
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 12:17, Dalibor Topic wrote:
For example, it seems to be impossible for a non-root user, to overwrite
the java alternative, whereas the proposed scheme allows the user to
specify a different (maybe even working
T. Alexander Popiel wrote:
In message: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Things like -bootclasspath are only used by broken by design
applications, anyway. It's -X*bootclasspath nowadays with Sun's VM, and
it's there for
, the projects containing
broken and unportable java code will suffer, and lose mind share. I see
gcj as a major driving factor there.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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or 'org.apache' or whatever the
xerces prefix is? Lookup docs for Thread.setContextClassLoader , it
could help there.
The core libraries have no business depending on or including separately
distributable packages like xerces... but that's a rant for another day.
Agreed.
cheers,
dal
library is linked
during runtime to the GPLd interpreter via LGPLd libraries, how come
Ximian is allowed to ship it under the weaker-thank-GPL X license,
thereby apprently violating FSFs position on GPLd interpreters?
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfInterpreter
Jan Schulz wrote:
Hallo Dalibor,
* Dalibor Topic wrote:
* figure out how you want to interpret the GPL in this case. The rest
follows from that.
Problems not touched: *execution* of GPL-incompatible code using
GPLed libs and/or GPLed JVMs is beyond the scope of this message.
Could you please
playing with it, and has something to show:
http://www.kaffe.org/pipermail/kaffe/2003-October/044313.html
so ... it's not fully there yet, but it can be done ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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running is clearly not covered under GPL, your argument doesn't work.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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Salut Etienne,
Etienne Gagnon wrote:
Dalibor Topic wrote:
GPL says:
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope. ...
...
As running is clearly not covered under GPL, your argument doesn't work.
Modificatio
on 'dogmas' from above to regulate the
interpretation.
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] Given that most replys I've seen here didn't fully support FSFs view.
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ffering interpretations of what constitutes a derivative work,
but instead go on about a hypothetical case to prove your point. That is
a very bad way to present your case, in my opinion.
Dalibor Topic wrote:
The language is defined by the Java Language Specification.
But the virtual m
Etienne Gagnon wrote:
Dalibor Topic wrote:
It would have been nice if you had made the arguments of each side
clear, before attacking my position. The discussion has not taken
place on debian-legal, but on debian-java. I appreciate the way Gadek
presented both sides of the previuos argument
ll be able to run it. Helpers for hacking on
kaffe are always welcome ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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sting, and the next debian
release. I've CC:ed him on this mail, too. If Ean approves, he could
help out with kaffe packaging. I think Marko already applied to become a
debian maintainer, and is, AFAIK, currently packaging the ATI binary
drivers.
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] Beside goi
,
dalibor topic
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your grandgrandchildren may thank you ;)
thanks,
dalibor topic
[1] http://www.apache.org/licenses/proposed/
[2] http://www.jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/JSPA.pdf
[3] http://www.apache.org/licenses/proposed/LICENSE-2.0.txt
[4] http://www.apache.org/licenses/proposed/ri-license.txt
[5] http://www.apach
This bird got out too quickly. ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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iling list, who asks developers to take a look
at the RI and TCK licenses, as the ASF hasn't received many comments on
those.
thanks,
dalibor topic
[1] http://www.apache.org/licenses/proposed/
[2] http://www.jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/JSPA.pdf
[3] http://www.apache.org/licenses/propo
d.
And please forward the patches you get upstream, if they still apply to
the CVS. It's quite annoying to have to do the stupid wrapped string
compiler error patch for gcc 3.3, only to discover that someone half-did
it already for debian. We need more contributors anyway ;)
cheers,
dalibor
Pierre Machard wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 03:23:44PM +0100, Dalibor Topic wrote:
[...]
- Tell me whether you think upgrading to 1.1.2, 1.1.3, etc. etc. while
we are in freeze is legitimate or whether we need to be backporting
patches from CVS.
1.1.3 is due in 2 weeks. It will be
/kaffe/2003-November/044406.html
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] The wishlist for the next versions can be found here:
http://www.kaffe.org/pipermail/kaffe/2003-November/044431.html
Progress is happening gradually, and could happen faster if we had more
volunteers [2] ;)
[2] Especially DocBook, Ant, Maven
ng out with the GNU Classpath project.
One of the best ways to do that is to help with the kaffe transition
to GNU Classpath, of course ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] http://www.kaffe.org/~robilad/tomcat-4.1.27-screenshot.png
[2] http://www.kaffe.org/~robilad/eXist-0.9.2-screenshot.png
[3] http://w
et certain clean-room
conditions. They are getter better every day thanks to many people who
decided to stop waiting for Sun to make java free and take the necessary
steps themselves. You could be one of us. ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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