Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-22 Thread Thorsten Glaser
Guillem Jover dixit: >> Ah, no, don’t use ar to create .deb files. >> >> http://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20110818-tg-g10046.htm > >Using binutils' ar should be considered supported, and works fine with >dpkg-deb and dpkg, the accepted format is documented in deb(5). I'd The problem is t

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-22 Thread Guillem Jover
On Tue, 2012-05-22 at 12:47:01 +, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > Guillem Jover dixit: > > the archive override. And if we have to keep changing the packages > > anyway to make sure they match changing priorities, we might as well > > just set the compressor (to gzip) explicitly for base packages. >

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-22 Thread Guillem Jover
On Tue, 2012-05-22 at 12:44:02 +, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > Adam Borowski dixit: > >using the attached script. > > Ah, no, don’t use ar to create .deb files. > > http://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20110818-tg-g10046.htm Using binutils' ar should be considered supported, and works fine

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-22 Thread Thorsten Glaser
Guillem Jover dixit: >the archive override. And if we have to keep changing the packages >anyway to make sure they match changing priorities, we might as well >just set the compressor (to gzip) explicitly for base packages. Pseudo-essential packages are going to be a problem though. What if a (hy

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-22 Thread Thorsten Glaser
Adam Borowski dixit: >using the attached script. Ah, no, don’t use ar to create .deb files. http://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20110818-tg-g10046.htm What you can do is: $ paxtar cAf foo.deb debian-binary control.* data.* It’s in wheezy already. bye, //mirabilos -- [...] if maybe ext3f

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-22 Thread Thorsten Glaser
Adam Borowski dixit: >if udebs switched to xz (unpacking takes ~10MB memory). -2 takes only 3 MiB, which is about 2 MiB more than gzip, since that number is rounded. bye, //mirabilos -- you introduced a merge commit│ % g rebase -i HEAD^^ sorry, no idea and rebasing just fscked │ Segme

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-19 Thread Sven Joachim
On 2012-05-19 00:52 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 12:27:15PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: >> Guillem Jover wrote: >> > Only as long as the debian/control information matches the one from >> > the archive override. >> >> I checked, and currently the only base package with an ove

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-18 Thread Adam Borowski
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 12:27:15PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Guillem Jover wrote: > > Only as long as the debian/control information matches the one from > > the archive override. > > I checked, and currently the only base package with an overridden priority > is libsigc++-2.0-0c2a So, would it b

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-18 Thread Joey Hess
While this has been an interesting thread, it may be predicated on a false premise. I examined the latest weekly CD build, and the reason no desktop tasks at all (even lxde or xfce) appear on their respective CDs is because debian-cd is simply not including tasksel's new task-* packages, at all.

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-18 Thread Joey Hess
Guillem Jover wrote: > Only as long as the debian/control information matches the one from > the archive override. I checked, and currently the only base package with an overridden priority is libsigc++-2.0-0c2a -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-18 Thread Wookey
+++ Mehdi Dogguy [2012-05-16 16:24 +0200]: > On 16/05/12 13:41, Wookey wrote: > >is there any reason not to just upload this to Debian? > > There are ITPs filed for it: > - http://bugs.debian.org/582884 > - http://bugs.debian.org/576359 Yes. I discovered that when I went to file an ITP :-) It tu

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-17 Thread Guillem Jover
On Sun, 2012-05-13 at 18:47:01 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Adam Borowski wrote: > > Special-casing base packages would be a lot of complexity, let's avoid that > > if possible -- but still preferred to letting gzip stay. > > Base packages can be identified at build time by their priority. > if ($pri

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-17 Thread Adam Borowski
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:47:54PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Can someone set the default to xz and recompile all of Debian or at > least base and create a repository from that for install tests? I tested it a bit, both with bare debootstrap into a chroot, and by recompressing all debs o

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-17 Thread Holger Wansing
Hi, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying > to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what > we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of > supporting the following single-CD installations: > >

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-17 Thread Adam Borowski
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 07:54:17AM +0100, Neil Williams wrote: > On Thu, 17 May 2012 04:36:40 +0200 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:47:54PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > > > Can someone set the default to xz and recompile all of Debian or at > > > least base and cre

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-17 Thread Adam D. Barratt
On 17.05.2012 07:54, Neil Williams wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2012 04:36:40 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:47:54PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Can someone set the default to xz and recompile all of Debian or at > least base and create a repository from that for ins

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Neil Williams
On Thu, 17 May 2012 04:36:40 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:47:54PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > > Can someone set the default to xz and recompile all of Debian or at > > least base and create a repository from that for install tests? > > There's no need to recom

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Adam Borowski
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:47:54PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Can someone set the default to xz and recompile all of Debian or at > least base and create a repository from that for install tests? There's no need to recompile anything. You can recompress existing packages using the attac

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Peter Samuelson
[Steve McIntyre] > You're not measuring the time taken to sync to the flash drive > either, so all you're going to be seeing is the speed of writing to > cache. Huh, I figured the 'sync' call at the end of each test run covered that. > I've done lots of work with USB flash and MMC/SD cards over

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Joey Hess
Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Joey Hess writes: > > > Adam Borowski wrote: > >> Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are they > >> relevant/are they fixable? > > > > As one of the maintainers of debootstrap, I am perhaps more aware than > > some how broadly it's used. Ok..

Use cases for CD installs (Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...)

2012-05-16 Thread Filipus Klutiero
Steve Langasek wrote: On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:26:13PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: > On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió: > [snip] > > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop > > systems with only a CD and no networking,

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Hans-Christoph Steiner
On May 16, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > [CC'ing Hans-Christoph in case he isn't following this list] > > On 12-05-16 at 02:47pm, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: >> Joey Hess writes: >> >>> Adam Borowski wrote: Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are >>

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Thomas Schmitt
Hi, Bjørn Mork wrote: > On a default Debian system you need to be a member of > the "floppy" group. Ferenc Wagner wrote: > What about recommending /dev/disk/by-id/usb-X instead? I understand that the instructions about creating a Debian installation medium shall be usable on as many systems as

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Steve McIntyre
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 09:00:29PM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: >[Steve McIntyre] >> The major win with dd onto a raw device is that you can specify the >> block size. For most USB sticks, using a block size of 4MB or so is >> going to be *much* faster than using the default for dd (512 bytes) >>

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors
Jonathan Nieder writes: > speaking lets each user access media that they have inserted. Last > time I checked[1] (a while ago), the same rules did not apply to USB > sticks. Yes, this is the point I was trying to make in the first place :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@list

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Jonathan Nieder
Bjørn Mork wrote: > Timo Juhani Lindfors writes: >> You also need to have root access to some machine to create the USB >> media. > > No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of > the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules : > > # default permissio

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
[CC'ing Hans-Christoph in case he isn't following this list] On 12-05-16 at 02:47pm, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Joey Hess writes: > > > Adam Borowski wrote: > >> Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are > >> they relevant/are they fixable? > > > > As one of the maintai

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Mehdi Dogguy
On 16/05/12 13:41, Wookey wrote: is there any reason not to just upload this to Debian? There are ITPs filed for it: - http://bugs.debian.org/582884 - http://bugs.debian.org/576359 Regards, -- Mehdi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubsc

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
On Wed, 16 May 2012, Wookey wrote: > this to Debian? I see a couple of places in the UI where it says > 'Ubuntu' and it would be good if it got a bit cleverer and put in the If Ubuntu sponsored the creation of usb-creator, we can package it that way just fine, as long as the trademark license for

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Goswin von Brederlow
Joey Hess writes: > Adam Borowski wrote: >> Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are they >> relevant/are they fixable? > > As one of the maintainers of debootstrap, I am perhaps more aware than > some how broadly it's used. Ok.. > > They use it on Android (41,600 hits incl

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Wookey
+++ Timo Juhani Lindfors [2012-05-15 21:01 +0300]: Yes, turns out I failed to read the instructions right, presumably due to thinking I knew how this worked (i.e. you can't just put an iso stright onto a USB stick, and you need 'hd-media' for USB sticks). I'm glad to see that this has got signifi

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors
Bjørn Mork writes: > I fail to see how burning to a local user's CD is any better, but yes, > if that is a consideration then they need some system to tie the rights > to console access. I believe ConsoleKit and the replacement > systemd-loginctl attempts to solve such problems. Yes, I believe u

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Ferenc Wagner
"Thomas Schmitt" writes: > I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of > cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX > for X = valuable hard disk. What about recommending /dev/disk/by-id/usb-X instead? -- Feri. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Neil Williams
On Wed, 16 May 2012 07:53:55 -0300 Ben Armstrong wrote: > On 05/16/2012 06:10 AM, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: > > Bjørn Mork writes: > >> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of > >> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules : > > > > Yeah bu

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Ben Armstrong
On 05/16/2012 06:10 AM, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: > Bjørn Mork writes: >> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of >> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules : > > Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely? $ debconf-sho

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Bjørn Mork
Timo Juhani Lindfors writes: > Bjørn Mork writes: >> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of >> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules : > > Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely? No, that decision should be left to

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Bjørn Mork
Timo Juhani Lindfors writes: > Wookey writes: >> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you >> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to >> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images. > > You also need to have root acces

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-16 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors
Bjørn Mork writes: > No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of > the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules : Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely? > You mean that they allow you to burn a CD but not write to a USB > stic

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Peter Samuelson
[Steve McIntyre] > The major win with dd onto a raw device is that you can specify the > block size. For most USB sticks, using a block size of 4MB or so is > going to be *much* faster than using the default for dd (512 bytes) > or cp (10 KB IIRC). That seemed a little fishy to me, since none of

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Steve McIntyre
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:40:55PM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: > >[Steve McIntyre] >> (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en) > >While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of >the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth >that y

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Peter Samuelson
[Samuel Thibault] > > I think "cp" is even more straightforward. > > Does cp accept that way since a long time? I'm not sure, but I've been using things like "cp boot.img /dev/fd0" for probably 10 or 15 years on various Linux and Unix systems. (The fact that I referred to a floppy drive may giv

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Guillem Jover
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 10:18:25 +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 05:56:54PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Installed-Size is generated automatically by dpkg-buildpackage, so the > > only way that you'd get a package without it is by manually creating a > > package, which nearly no

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Guillem Jover
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 17:31:47 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le lundi 14 mai 2012 à 17:56 -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : > > Installed-Size is generated automatically by dpkg-buildpackage, so the > > only way that you'd get a package without it is by manually creating a > > package, which nearly

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Tzafrir Cohen
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 02:45:47PM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote: > On 05/15/2012 02:18 PM, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of > > cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX > > for X = valuable hard disk. > > I've wondered about that, too, when working on the relevant sect

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors
Ben Armstrong writes: > accomplish as the superuser.) What I wonder, though, is if it is > universally true that ordinary users will always have write access to a > USB key they've just inserted. Under what circumstances will they not? At least in default debian and ubuntu systems they don't have

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Samuel Thibault
Peter Samuelson, le Tue 15 May 2012 12:40:55 -0500, a écrit : > > (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en) > > While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of > the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth > that you need to use dd

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Ben Armstrong
On 05/15/2012 02:18 PM, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of > cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX > for X = valuable hard disk. I've wondered about that, too, when working on the relevant section of the Debian Live Manual. > Maybe one should advise people to first r

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Peter Samuelson
[Steve McIntyre] > (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en) While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block devices), I t

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Thomas Schmitt
Hi, Steve McIntyre wrote: > (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en) but > skipped straight past section 4.3.1. Looks like we could do with a big > clear message "DO THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE SPECIAL NEEDS" to make it more > obvious. :-) I am a bit scared by the catastrophic poten

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Thomas Schmitt
Hi, > Fedora/RH folks recently added more > hacks to isohybrid to support booting on Macs: > http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html This is achieved by applying ISOLINUX program isohybrid from a recent ISOLINYX version to the already produced ISO images. syslinux-4.05 should probably do. It is a

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Steve McIntyre
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 06:13:24PM +0200, gregor herrmann wrote: >On Tue, 15 May 2012 22:34:20 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: > >> > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you >> > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to >> > put on. It's no wonder n

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread gregor herrmann
On Tue, 15 May 2012 22:34:20 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: > > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you > > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to > > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images. > I thought HD-media was a t

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le lundi 14 mai 2012 à 17:56 -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : > Installed-Size is generated automatically by dpkg-buildpackage, so the > only way that you'd get a package without it is by manually creating a > package, which nearly no one does. So in practice it's always there, > although it might n

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Paul Wise
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Wookey wrote: > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images. I thought HD-media was a thing of the

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors
Wookey writes: > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images. You also need to have root access to some machine to create the USB me

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Wookey
+++ Steve McIntyre [2012-05-15 13:38 +0100]: > [ re-adding CC to debian-cd and debian-boot ] > > 2. USB-targeted images > > I've also tweaked DVD#1 of each set to fit in 4GB instead of the > normal 4.7GB, so that it fits on a 4GB USB stick to make it more > useful. We could quite readily produce

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Steve McIntyre
[ re-adding CC to debian-cd and debian-boot ] Adam Borowski wrote: >On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 05:04:16PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> Hey folks, >> >> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying >> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what >

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread David Kalnischkies
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Russ Allbery wrote: > Charles Plessy writes: >> Le Tue, May 15, 2012 at 01:54:53AM +0200, David Kalnischkies a écrit : > >>> And the fields defining a difference in versions are: >>> Installed-Size, Depends, Pre-Depends, Conflicts, Breaks and Replaces. >>> Differe

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Charles Plessy
Le Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:57:15AM +0200, Adam Borowski a écrit : > > And besides, why are we talking about Installed-Size in the first place? Because I asked a question off-topic in that thread without breaking it. Apologies for this confusion. -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan --

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Adam Borowski
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:18:25AM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 05:56:54PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Installed-Size is generated automatically by dpkg-buildpackage, so the > > only way that you'd get a package without it is by manually creating a > > package, which nearl

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Toni Mueller
Hi, On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:34:39AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > So to use the image you need either a DVD or a USB stick, and if you're > using a write-once DVD you're perhaps wasting the unused space; but the > download time and install footprint are still kept low and in the range of > wh

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Jon Dowland
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:34:39AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > So to use the image you need either a DVD or a USB stick, and if you're using > a write-once DVD you're perhaps wasting the unused space; but the download > time and install footprint are still kept low and in the range of what a CD

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-15 Thread Jon Dowland
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 05:56:54PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Installed-Size is generated automatically by dpkg-buildpackage, so the > only way that you'd get a package without it is by manually creating a > package, which nearly no one does. So in practice it's always there, > although it might

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Russ Allbery
Charles Plessy writes: > Le Tue, May 15, 2012 at 01:54:53AM +0200, David Kalnischkies a écrit : >> And the fields defining a difference in versions are: >> Installed-Size, Depends, Pre-Depends, Conflicts, Breaks and Replaces. >> Differences in all other fields are ignored (as they are not guarant

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Charles Plessy
Le Tue, May 15, 2012 at 01:54:53AM +0200, David Kalnischkies a écrit : > > And the fields defining a difference in versions are: > Installed-Size, Depends, Pre-Depends, Conflicts, Breaks and Replaces. > Differences in all other fields are ignored (as they are not guaranteed to > be present - the

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread David Kalnischkies
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:33:34PM +0200, Bálint Réczey wrote: >> 2012/5/14, Marco d'Itri : >> > Do we actually have an official debootstrap package for foreign systems? >> > We could ship a static busybox with it and solve this and other is

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Charles Plessy
Le Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:33:22PM +0100, Andrew M.A. Cater a écrit : > On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:30:12PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: > > On May 12, Adam Borowski wrote: > > > > > Thus, let's just switch dpkg-deb's default to xz. Lowering bandwidth > > > usage > > > is worth the extra build tim

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Adam Borowski
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:33:34PM +0200, Bálint Réczey wrote: > 2012/5/14, Marco d'Itri : > > Do we actually have an official debootstrap package for foreign systems? > > We could ship a static busybox with it and solve this and other issues. > > (I know, not all the world is a VAX, etc... But we

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:30:12PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: > On May 12, Adam Borowski wrote: > > > Thus, let's just switch dpkg-deb's default to xz. Lowering bandwidth usage > > is worth the extra build time cost. > Agreed, this looks like a good idea. > > -- > ciao, > Marco The only probl

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Bálint Réczey
Hi, 2012/5/14, Marco d'Itri : > On May 14, Adam Borowski wrote: > >> Ie, the problem is not in d-i, but in running debootstrap on foreign >> systems. And that's indeed not easily fixable :( > Do we actually have an official debootstrap package for foreign systems? > We could ship a static busybo

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Michael Gilbert
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Michael Biebl wrote: > On 14.05.2012 12:30, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> Let's keep providing CDs as install medium, because it is still relevant >> for some (and, I vaguely feel, not only exotically few) real use cases >> to install non-bloated desktop at places with

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Steve Langasek
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:26:13PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: > On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió: > [snip] > > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop > > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why? > > What is the use

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Joey Hess
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: > Indeed, I have seen that pattern before, although I think it was because > people are used to get CDs, not DVDs (ie, just a matter of habit). Another reason is that it's more likely for a throwaway USB key to be in the 1-2 gb range than the 5 gb range.

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Joey Hess
Marco d'Itri wrote: > Do we actually have an official debootstrap package for foreign systems? > We could ship a static busybox with it and solve this and other issues. We don't really. When you look around, a variety of ad-hoc methods are used to install debootstrap on foreign systems. The simple

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
On Lun 14 May 2012 07:30:30 Jonas Smedegaard escribió: [snip] > I wish people would collaborate more. > > I wish people would care more about efficient use of resources. Me too :-) > I did not claim that there was great sense behind that usage pattern, > but I do claim that it is reality in some

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Marco d'Itri
On May 14, Adam Borowski wrote: > Ie, the problem is not in d-i, but in running debootstrap on foreign > systems. And that's indeed not easily fixable :( Do we actually have an official debootstrap package for foreign systems? We could ship a static busybox with it and solve this and other issue

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Adam Borowski
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 06:47:01PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Adam Borowski wrote: > > Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are they > > relevant/are they fixable? > > As one of the maintainers of debootstrap, I am perhaps more aware than > some how broadly it's used. Ok.. >

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Thibaut Paumard
Le 14/05/12 12:39, Michael Biebl a écrit : > On 14.05.2012 12:30, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> Let's keep providing CDs as install medium, because it is still relevant >> for some (and, I vaguely feel, not only exotically few) real use cases >> to install non-bloated desktop at places with flaky/ex

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Jason White
Michael Biebl wrote: > GNOME 3.4 has seen a lot of effort put into improving accessibility > support, especially gnome-shell. Once we have a complete 3.4 stack, it > would be great if you can give it another try and report any issues. There are a number of us on the debian-accessibility list wh

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Michael Biebl
On 14.05.2012 03:29, Samuel Thibault wrote: > I haven't tried myself, but gnome3 most probably introduced > non-accessible custom widgets, buttons without labels, etc. For > instance, the alt-F2 widget, used a lot by blind people, is currently > inaccessible... GNOME 3.4 has seen a lot of effort p

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Michael Biebl
On 14.05.2012 12:30, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > Let's keep providing CDs as install medium, because it is still relevant > for some (and, I vaguely feel, not only exotically few) real use cases > to install non-bloated desktop at places with flaky/expensive Internet. Having different default desk

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-05-14 at 11:22am, Marco d'Itri wrote: > On May 14, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > > It is my impression from my visits in the Fall (although I do not > > have any hard data to support it) that in India and Indonesia > > network access is generally so slow that even if computers have DVD > >

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Adam Borowski
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:33:18AM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:40:10AM +0100, Neil Williams wrote: > > There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back > > below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release. > > I was under the impression that GNO

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Marco d'Itri
On May 14, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > It is my impression from my visits in the Fall (although I do not have > any hard data to support it) that in India and Indonesia network access > is generally so slow that even if computers have DVD drives the common > media downloaded and used is CD. This

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-14 Thread Jon Dowland
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:40:10AM +0100, Neil Williams wrote: > There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back > below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release. I was under the impression that GNOME3 fit onto one CD with recent Fedora releases, but I am having troubl

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-05-13 at 10:26pm, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: > On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió: > [snip] > > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop > > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why? > > What is the use case for this? Chea

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Samuel Thibault
Hello, Joey Hess, le Sun 13 May 2012 20:39:20 -0400, a écrit : > Neil Williams wrote: > > "supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments" is exactly > > what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be > > acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inev

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió: [snip] > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why? > What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for > over 10 years now. Actually, I was goin

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Marco d'Itri
On May 14, Neil Williams wrote: > I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and > possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options. What is the point of providing a default which is not what people usually want? Just document that a normal desktop install will require

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Joey Hess
Neil Williams wrote: > "supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments" is exactly > what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be > acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable. > There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to ge

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Neil Williams
On Sun, 13 May 2012 18:36:09 -0400 Michael Gilbert wrote: > On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote: > > Hey folks, > > > > Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying > > to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what > > we're goi

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Joey Hess
Adam Borowski wrote: > Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are they > relevant/are they fixable? As one of the maintainers of debootstrap, I am perhaps more aware than some how broadly it's used. Ok.. They use it on Android (41,600 hits including http://evilzone.org/andro

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Michael Gilbert
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Hey folks, > > Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying > to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what > we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of > supporting

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Adam Borowski
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 09:49:19PM +0200, Julien Cristau wrote: > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 21:35:16 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > > That's why busybox includes xz :) > > > Not all relevant busybox builds do, which is the point. Could you please mention which ones do not? And if so, how are the

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Julien Cristau
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 21:35:16 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > That's why busybox includes xz :) > Not all relevant busybox builds do, which is the point. Cheers, Julien signature.asc Description: Digital signature

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Adam Borowski
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:42:46PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Adam Borowski wrote: > > Except that busybox has xz support, and is loaded from an udeb way before > > any regular debs are seen. Ie, there is no reason to stop "core packages" > > from using decent compression. > > Yes there is. busybo

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Adam Borowski
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:59:11PM -0400, Chris Knadle wrote: > On Sunday, May 13, 2012 12:42:46, Joey Hess wrote: > > Many arm systems have 64 mb of ram or less. > > The NSLU2 boxes that were common to install a port of Debian onto are one > such > example, although I'm not sure how realistic a

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Chris Knadle
On Sunday, May 13, 2012 12:42:46, Joey Hess wrote: > Adam Borowski wrote: > > Except that busybox has xz support, and is loaded from an udeb way before > > any regular debs are seen. Ie, there is no reason to stop "core > > packages" from using decent compression. > > Yes there is. busybox is use

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Joey Hess
Adam Borowski wrote: > Except that busybox has xz support, and is loaded from an udeb way before > any regular debs are seen. Ie, there is no reason to stop "core packages" > from using decent compression. Yes there is. busybox is used on a variety of systems, which are unlikely to have xz instal

Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...

2012-05-13 Thread Adam Borowski
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 09:27:26AM +0200, Philipp Kern wrote: > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:06:25AM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote: > > Also if udeb:s are going to be using xz then it makes even more sense to use > > it for everything. > > µdebs won't use the xz default, though. (The compression for t

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