* Thomas Viehmann:
> I think that not shipping unmaintained and unsupported packages is a
> benefit. Packages need a maintainer to enter, I think they should need
> one to stay.
A real problem is that willingness to maintain a package in unstable
is not as good a predictor as you might think for
Russ Allbery wrote:
> Thomas Viehmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>Russ Allbery wrote:
>>>The thing is... most of the orphaned packages are in fairly good shape.
>>How do you know?
> Well, because at one point I went through the PTS for each one of them,
> checked for filed bugs, checked lintian r
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 01:07:58PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 14, 2006 at 06:00:41PM +0100, Jesus Climent wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 07:31:17PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> > > and this answers IMHO what the maintainer wants a patch for: a system
> > > that would work with all d
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 02:34:32PM +0900, Charles Plessy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
was heard to say:
> As stated by the Debian Policy Manual :
>
> "The Depends field should be used if the depended-on package is required
> for the depending package to provide a significant amount of
> functionality."
>
On Sat, Jan 14, 2006 at 06:00:41PM +0100, Jesus Climent wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 07:31:17PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> > and this answers IMHO what the maintainer wants a patch for: a system
> > that would work with all download managers.
> Which is something it is not going to work.
Huh? W
Thomas Viehmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
>> The thing is... most of the orphaned packages are in fairly good shape.
> How do you know?
Well, because at one point I went through the PTS for each one of them,
checked for filed bugs, checked lintian reports, etc. I haven't
Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>>I think that not shipping unmaintained and unsupported packages is a
>>benefit. Packages need a maintainer to enter, I think they should need
>>one to stay.
> You wouldn't say that if you were a user using an orphaned package ...
Well, I've been in the situation to dig ou
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 07:31:17PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
>
> and this answers IMHO what the maintainer wants a patch for: a system
> that would work with all download managers.
Which is something it is not going to work.
> The current intent to NMU is proposing curl | wget which doesn't need
>
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, Thomas Viehmann wrote:
> How do you know?
The BTS.
> > Most of the orphaned packages are orphaned because they're obscure and the
> > person who cared about the package has left the project or run out of
> > time. However, they are probably still working fine for people with
Russ Allbery wrote:
> Thomas Viehmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>>Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure how the existence of more
>>packages that should be orphaned invalidates dealing with those that
>>presently are.
>
>
>>There's 169 orphaned packages today, why not do something about
Thomas Viehmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure how the existence of more
> packages that should be orphaned invalidates dealing with those that
> presently are.
> There's 169 orphaned packages today, why not do something about them?
The thing is... most of
Jesus Climent wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 12:07:02PM -0600, Bill Allombert wrote:
>
>>There are technical ways to solve the problem (e.g. to depend on
>>wget|curl and to detect which one is available at start up).
>>
>>If the mainatiner is willing to give more input than 'it is not a bug'
>
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 12:07:02PM -0600, Bill Allombert wrote:
>
> There are technical ways to solve the problem (e.g. to depend on
> wget|curl and to detect which one is available at start up).
>
> If the mainatiner is willing to give more input than 'it is not a bug'
> on what behaviour he w
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Andreas Barth wrote:
> One can try to come up with some metric, yes.
>
> However, on the other hand feel free to create a "common maintained
> packages team" that adopts such packages :)
This may happen sooner that one may think.
The project "collab-maint" on alioth is actua
Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 06:48:38PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
>
>>>But if you read this bug (#307833), you'd see that the maintainer doesn't
>>>consider it a bug, and has documented why in the README file.
>>
>>It is a bug as the package is not usable without curl or wget insta
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 10:39:01AM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > dependancy on curl. However, declaring proper dependancies for the
> > package is a "should", not a "must", so if a debian developper is free
> > to creating uninstallable p
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Charles Plessy wrote:
> dependancy on curl. However, declaring proper dependancies for the
> package is a "should", not a "must", so if a debian developper is free
> to creating uninstallable packages if he fancies this.
Disclaimer: I am not talking about apt-file.
I sure ho
Thomas Viehmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, maybe the actual situation would be better reflected if one of the
> interested parties adopted the package and retitled the O bug to RFA?
Sounds right...
>> Therefore I don't think that merely being orphaned is a good criterion
>> for removal;
Frank Küster wrote:
> Hm, well, no. I do particularly care for one orphaned package,
> lmodern. But since it currently doesn't have any (real) RC bugs, I have
> more important things to do than adopt it on behalf of the
> debian-tetex-maint list (or talking Norbert Preining into creating it
> fro
Jeroen van Wolffelaar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That said, I do believe that if a package is unpopular enough that
> nobody picks up maintaining it, even while it's orphaned, what the
> prospects of the package are, and how much use it has to prolong its
> life extraordinary. If you're sufficie
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 02:34:32PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 04:47:33AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote :
> > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 06:48:38PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> > > > But if you read this bug (#307833), you'd see that the maintainer
> > > > doesn't
> > > > conside
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 04:47:33AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote :
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 06:48:38PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> > > But if you read this bug (#307833), you'd see that the maintainer doesn't
> > > consider it a bug, and has documented why in the README file.
> > It is a bug as the pac
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 03:11:58PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
> Andrew Suffield wrote:
> > Well it's nice in theory. The problem is that you have to set the
> > threshold high enough to exempt glibc and dpkg, and when you do that,
> > I have not yet found a metric that complains about any other packag
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:15:25PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On the other hand I can not really
> believe that it is impossible to touch glibc and dpkg bugs with some
> kind of status ("I'm working on it", "Help would be welcome in this
> particular task", ...).
I don't think it's impossible,
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 03:05:31PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
> I think that the RC bug metric is overated and doesn't consider these
> kinds of effects that end up pulling down the overall usability of
> Debian.
Yeah, the RC bug metric is meant to just be for the trivial bugs that
we get rid of imme
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 06:48:38PM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> > But if you read this bug (#307833), you'd see that the maintainer doesn't
> > consider it a bug, and has documented why in the README file.
> It is a bug as the package is not usable without curl or wget installed.
> Though, I give him
Jeroen van Wolffelaar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Well, that's current practice, but nobody is stopping anyone to give a
> little bit more care into QA packages...
The hardest problem, speaking as someone who wanted to do that and who
still wants to do that as soon as I can find time, is that m
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:52:13PM +0100, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * David Nusinow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 21:47]:
> > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:35:18PM +0100, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > > However, on the other hand feel free to create a "common maintained
> > > packages team" that adopts such pac
* David Nusinow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 21:47]:
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:35:18PM +0100, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > However, on the other hand feel free to create a "common maintained
> > packages team" that adopts such packages :)
> Isn't that pretty much what the qa team does?
Not really.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:35:18PM +0100, Andreas Barth wrote:
> However, on the other hand feel free to create a "common maintained
> packages team" that adopts such packages :)
Isn't that pretty much what the qa team does?
- David Nusinow
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also sprach Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.01.12.2135 +0100]:
> * Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 19:36]:
> > Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > * Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 18:11]:
> > >> Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> > * Christoph Berg
* Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 19:36]:
> Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > * Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 18:11]:
> >> Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > * Christoph Berg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 16:28]:
> >> >> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTE
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Andrew Suffield wrote:
Well it's nice in theory. The problem is that you have to set the
threshold high enough to exempt glibc and dpkg, and when you do that,
I have not yet found a metric that complains about any other packages
(I've tried two or three times to invent one).
Andrew Suffield wrote:
> Well it's nice in theory. The problem is that you have to set the
> threshold high enough to exempt glibc and dpkg, and when you do that,
> I have not yet found a metric that complains about any other packages
> (I've tried two or three times to invent one).
I think the pr
Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
> While the package might not be of the quality we strive to achieve within
> Debian; if a bug is not release critical we consider the bug not to be
> serious enough to impact the packages' releaseworthyness. This is by
> definition. Even if there are many of those bugs, they
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 03:49:08PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
>
> >While the package might not be of the quality we strive to achieve within
> >Debian; if a bug is not release critical we consider the bug not to be
> >serious enough to impact the pack
Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 18:11]:
>> Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > * Christoph Berg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 16:28]:
>> >> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > Really, how about just automatically[1] r
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 04:57:46PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:03:28AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > Of course, this is trivial, but fixing this bug (251 days old) is
> > also trivial. Then why complain ? I feel that it gives a bad image of
> > debian, when it
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:23:31 +0100, "Thomas Viehmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> Hi,
>
> first of all, thanks for taking the initiative I think the matter is too
> important to be left alone just for avoiding to step on anyones toes.
>
> Anthony Towns wrote:
> > Random ideas for negative conseq
Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:03:28AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
>
>>Of course, this is trivial, but fixing this bug (251 days old) is
>>also trivial. Then why complain ? I feel that it gives a bad image of
>>debian, when it suggests to use a broken tool while another
* Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 18:11]:
> Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > * Christoph Berg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 16:28]:
> >> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > Really, how about just automatically[1] removing orphaned packages
> >> > without maintain
Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Christoph Berg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 16:28]:
>> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Really, how about just automatically[1] removing orphaned packages
>> > without maintained rdepends from testing?
>>
>> Seconded.
>
> well, just make
* Thomas Viehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 15:56]:
> Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
> > I very much agree that we should strive to make packages as good as
> > possible, but if users depend on a package and there are no real
> > showstoppers in it, we might do our users a better service with shipping
>
On Thu, January 12, 2006 16:02, Frank Küster wrote:
> But if a rather new package in active development has many non-RC bugs,
> some of them crippling upstream features, and one of them "New version
> N.m.o available" (retitled three times meanwhile), then our users are
> probably better served by
* Christoph Berg [Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:05:52 +0100]:
> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Really, how about just automatically[1] removing orphaned packages
> > without maintained rdepends from testing?
> Seconded.
Me too.
(jftr, http://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2004/06/msg00176
* Christoph Berg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-12 16:05]:
> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Really, how about just automatically[1] removing orphaned packages
> > without maintained rdepends from testing?
>
> Seconded.
I don't think it's such a great idea (at least not done by itsel
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:03:28AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Of course, this is trivial, but fixing this bug (251 days old) is
> also trivial. Then why complain ? I feel that it gives a bad image of
> debian, when it suggests to use a broken tool while another one is being
> repaired.
But if
* Christoph Berg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060112 16:28]:
> Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Really, how about just automatically[1] removing orphaned packages
> > without maintained rdepends from testing?
>
> Seconded.
well, just make a list that I can just copy into my hint file.
Che
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 02:21:03PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote :
> > ...
> > If a maintainer would not manage to respond to an RC bug for three months
> > the package is obviousely not maintained and should be taken over by
> > somebody else, IMHO.
>
> I wish something like that applied to all
Re: Thomas Viehmann in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Really, how about just automatically[1] removing orphaned packages
> without maintained rdepends from testing?
Seconded.
Christoph
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/
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"Thijs Kinkhorst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, January 12, 2006 14:23, Thomas Viehmann wrote:
>>> Random ideas for negative consequences might include forced
>>> orphaning by overriding maintainer fields to debian-qa, removal of
>> Maybe this should not only be limited to packages with RC
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
While the package might not be of the quality we strive to achieve within
Debian; if a bug is not release critical we consider the bug not to be
serious enough to impact the packages' releaseworthyness. This is by
definition. Even if there are many of
Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
> I very much agree that we should strive to make packages as good as
> possible, but if users depend on a package and there are no real
> showstoppers in it, we might do our users a better service with shipping
> than with not shipping the package.
No. Shipping unsupported p
On Thu, January 12, 2006 14:23, Thomas Viehmann wrote:
>> Random ideas for negative consequences might include forced
>> orphaning by overriding maintainer fields to debian-qa, removal of
> Maybe this should not only be limited to packages with RC bugs... For a
> lot of packages with inactive maint
Hi,
first of all, thanks for taking the initiative I think the matter is too
important to be left alone just for avoiding to step on anyones toes.
Anthony Towns wrote:
> Random ideas for negative consequences might include forced
> orphaning by overriding maintainer fields to debian-qa, removal o
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Steve Langasek wrote:
If RC bugs go unanswered for 3 months, I agree that something should be
done; I just don't think that saying someone else should take it over is
necessarily enough. I believe we need clearer methods for handling packages
in the case that *no one* is ha
On 1/12/06, Andreas Tille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
>
> > [Florian Weimer]
> >> What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
> >
> > Why is specifying the consequences of doing a bad job with maintaining
> > ones debian packages threatening
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 01:00:50PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> >[Florian Weimer]
> >>What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
> >Why is specifying the consequences of doing a bad job with maintaining
> >ones debian packages threateni
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 12:09:04PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Anthony Towns:
> > If you'd like to make suggestions about ideas that would be useful,
> What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
For instance, bug #303131 has been open since April last year, and
has had no further re
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
[Florian Weimer]
What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
Why is specifying the consequences of doing a bad job with maintaining
ones debian packages threatening?
IMHO it isn't at all.
Personally I believe it is time we made clea
also sprach Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.01.12.1209 +0100]:
> > If you'd like to make suggestions about ideas that would be useful,
>
> What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
Thanks, Anthony, for the heads-up.
--
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the
[Florian Weimer]
> What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
Why is specifying the consequences of doing a bad job with maintaining
ones debian packages threatening?
Personally I believe it is time we made clear and written down
explanations on what will happen to badly maintained pac
* Anthony Towns:
> If you'd like to make suggestions about ideas that would be useful,
What about: stop threatening your fellow developers?
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