Re: ProFTPd ported to Cygwin

2002-04-08 Thread Stanislav Sinyagin
--- "Gerrit P. Haase" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm having problems here: > > $ ftp localhost > Connected to loreley.antigone.familiehaase.de. > 220 ProFTPD 1.2.5rc1 Server (ProFTPD Default Installation) >[loreley.antigone.familiehaase.de] You seem to be runing the latest release sources. I

Re: Autoconf 2.53 check for working mmap fails

2002-04-08 Thread Corinna Vinschen
On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:40:36PM +0100, (1pH3r_IVI4IV14( wrote: > When configuring a package using autoconf-2.53, the built-in check for > mmap (AC_FUNC_MMAP I believe) fails: > > [...] > checking for working mmap... no > [...] That's expected unfortunately. The mmap test in autoconf (I know

Re: what am I doing wrong?

2002-04-08 Thread Pavel Tsekov
Hello Eli, Seems like you're missing the mutt package. Run setup.exe and check if it is installed. Sunday, April 07, 2002, 10:58:45 PM, you wrote: EK> $ echo hello | mutt -s test [EMAIL PROTECTED] EK> Error sending message, child exited 127 (Exec error.). EK> Could not send the message. EK> or

Re: Cannot locate col command in any current packages.

2002-04-08 Thread Pavel Tsekov
Sunday, April 07, 2002, 9:32:10 AM, you wrote: dd> Greetings, dd> If anyone could tell me if the col command is dd> available for the cygwin environment, I would dd> appreciate it. I've looked through all of the Use this link to find out: http://www.cygwin.com/packages/ -- Unsubscribe info:

Re: Help me understand few things

2002-04-08 Thread Corinna Vinschen
On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:00:02PM -0800, Gupta, Sanjay wrote: > Guest@SGUPTA-LAPT ~ > $ id > uid=501(Guest) gid=513(None) groups=513(None) > > Now, if I do login to Guest user as ssh > $ ssh guest@sgupta-lapt > [...] > $ id > uid=501(Guest) gid=513(None) > groups=0(Everyone),513(None),546(Guests

Re: Help me understand few things

2002-04-08 Thread Corinna Vinschen
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:28:57AM +0200, Corinna Vinschen wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:00:02PM -0800, Gupta, Sanjay wrote: > > Q3: When logged in via ssh, if I run > > $ id -Gn > > None Everyone Guests Power Users Users ORA_DBA > > It displays all the Primary and Secondary Groups belong to

Re: ip.h & tcp.h

2002-04-08 Thread Wu Yongwei
Christopher Faylor wrote: >On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:00:58AM +0800, Wu Yongwei wrote: >>Thank you for all the responses, even the one telling me not to SHOUT. A >>message is better than nothing, and I shouted because it seemed no one >>noticed my message. >> >>But I am not here to argue. I ask.

cron as w2k service

2002-04-08 Thread Ralph Winzinger
Hi, I'm just trying to run cron as an windows 2000 service. I'm currently facing a prblem which I couldn't solve with the help of mailing-list archives or any other internet resources for the last two weeks. So please don't answer 'check the archives ...' ;-) ntsec is not set After cygwin insta

shell script hanging

2002-04-08 Thread James Raftery
Hello, I have had a look through the FAQ etc. I downloaded the latest (dedault) version on the 5th April (2002) and just at the interactive level seems ok. When I tucked a command 'echo here' into a script it just hung. I have tried both ':' and '#! /bin/bash' on the first line. I have put

New inputs for the init_cygheap::etc_changed problem

2002-04-08 Thread Michel D'HOOGE
Hello, Here is my (interested) contribution to the "can't open /etc" message. I came to the conclusion (from my own experiments and from what I read on this forum) that the problem has to do with the fact that the /etc directory is on a remote server. When I mount /etc locally (like "mount c:/e

RE: glib threads

2002-04-08 Thread Robert Collins
> -Original Message- > From: Dave Brondsema [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 3:23 PM > > Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Cygwin has pthreads and/or Win32threads as available threading models. Check the configure.in test and config.log to see why it

Re: New inputs for the init_cygheap::etc_changed problem

2002-04-08 Thread Lassi A. Tuura
> More interesting: if I give to mount a "cygdrive" path > (like "mount /cygdrive/t/cygwin/1.3/etc /etc"), the message disappears. > Unfortunately /etc is no longer available after that ("ls /etc" results in > "No such file or directory"). The first argument to cygwin mount is supposed to be a wi

Re: New inputs for the init_cygheap::etc_changed problem

2002-04-08 Thread Michel D'HOOGE
"Lassi A. Tuura" a écrit : > > > More interesting: if I give to mount a "cygdrive" path > > (like "mount /cygdrive/t/cygwin/1.3/etc /etc"), the message disappears. > > Unfortunately /etc is no longer available after that ("ls /etc" results in > > "No such file or directory"). > > The first argum

Re: virtual memory exausted while compiling QuantLib (cygwin/gcc)

2002-04-08 Thread Ferdinando Ametrano
Hi all I posted my "virtual memory exausted" problem while compiling QuantLib 2 weeks ago. Thanks to those who replied I solved the problem removing the optimization. For archival sake here's the most informative source I've been pointed to: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq6_4.html ciao

question about local variables in bash for cygwin

2002-04-08 Thread Evan Teran
Hello I have cygwin installed on my WinXP box and am loving it. However I just noticed today that when I tried to use the local keyword in my bash script it gives me the error "local: not found". The script works on a RedHat box as expected so I would think that this is a cygwin/bash problem. P

MS Logo compliance - w2k / xp

2002-04-08 Thread John . Lonergan
I'm being asked if Cygwin is or will be 'MS Logo' compliant and als to find out about MSI scripting details. Does anyone have a clue about this stuff ? Thanks John Visit our website at http://www.ubswarburg.com This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the indiv

question about local variables in bash for cygwin

2002-04-08 Thread David Starks-Browning
On Monday 8 Apr 02, Evan Teran writes: > Hello I have cygwin installed on my WinXP box and am loving it. However > I just noticed today that when I tried to use the local keyword in my > bash script it gives me the error "local: not found". The script works > on a RedHat box as expected so I wou

Re: MS Logo compliance - w2k / xp

2002-04-08 Thread Corinna Vinschen
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:16:18PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I'm being asked if Cygwin is or will be 'MS Logo' compliant and als to find out >about MSI scripting details. Open Source Software should get a MS compliance logo? You're kidding... Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen

Re: question about local variables in bash for cygwin

2002-04-08 Thread Cliff Hones
Evan Teran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hello I have cygwin installed on my WinXP box and am loving it. However > I just noticed today that when I tried to use the local keyword in my > bash script it gives me the error "local: not found". The script works > on a RedHat box as expected so I wou

Re: cygwin-man

2002-04-08 Thread Joshua Daniel Franklin
> > DESCRIPTION > >Cygwin is a UNIX environment, developed by Red Hat, for > >Windows. > > > > Cygwin was up and running long before Red Hat came into the picture. Which > is > why it's not Redhatwin ;-). Straight off the homepage. Maybe it should be "currently developed by R

Re: MS Logo compliance - w2k / xp

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 10:16 AM 4/8/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I'm being asked if Cygwin is or will be 'MS Logo' compliant and als to find out about >MSI scripting details. > >Does anyone have a clue about this stuff ? "MS Logo" is not a goal of Cygwin, even if MS would allow it. The concept of Open Source

Re: shell script hanging

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 06:52 AM 4/8/2002, James Raftery wrote: >Hello, > I have had a look through the FAQ etc. I downloaded the latest (dedault) >version on the 5th April (2002) and just at the interactive level seems ok. >When I tucked a command 'echo here' into a script it just hung. I have tried >both ':'

Re: cygwin-man

2002-04-08 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:34:51AM -0700, Joshua Daniel Franklin wrote: >> > DESCRIPTION >> >Cygwin is a UNIX environment, developed by Red Hat, for >> >Windows. >> > >> >> Cygwin was up and running long before Red Hat came into the picture. Which >> is >> why it's not Redhatw

Re: cygwin-man

2002-04-08 Thread Corinna Vinschen
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:34:51AM -0700, Joshua Daniel Franklin wrote: > Hmm... can we change the name to "RedhatWinix" please? It's catchier Urg. Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Developermailto:[EMAIL

permission problem after installation under W2K

2002-04-08 Thread Ulrich Voss
Hi, I'm a long time Cygwin User and I am very happy with this great piece of software. Thanks for your great work! I am forced to upgrade to W2K. And now the trouble begins ... Problem: I cannot write to my home dir. Changing files is fine, but I cannot create new files. -- admi

Re: cron as w2k service

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 06:02 AM 4/8/2002, Ralph Winzinger wrote: >Hi, > >I'm just trying to run cron as an windows 2000 service. I'm currently >facing a prblem which I couldn't solve with the help of mailing-list >archives or any other internet resources for the last two weeks. So >please don't answer 'check the arch

Re: weird find bug?

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 02:33 PM 4/7/2002, Scott Evans wrote: >I'm running on Win2000 using an up-to-date Cygwin install. >When I issue this command: > find /cygdrive/d > >The contents of the last directory on my D: drive aren't reported. >for instance, if /cygdrive/d contains: > [d] $ ls -l > total 1673 > d

Re: cygwin-man

2002-04-08 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:41:46AM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote: >On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:34:51AM -0700, Joshua Daniel Franklin wrote: >>> > DESCRIPTION >>> >Cygwin is a UNIX environment, developed by Red Hat, for >>> >Windows. >>> > >>> >>> Cygwin was up and running long

Re: permission problem after installation under W2K

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 11:43 AM 4/8/2002, Ulrich Voss wrote: >Hi, > >I'm a long time Cygwin User and I am very happy with this great >piece of software. Thanks for your great work! > >I am forced to upgrade to W2K. And now the trouble begins ... > >Problem: I cannot write to my home dir. Changing files is fine, but

Re: ip.h & tcp.h

2002-04-08 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 05:14:27PM +0800, Wu Yongwei wrote: >>You should just adapt whatever you need from the Single UNIX >>Specification. > >Sorry but SUSv2 says nothing about the struct definitions. Or at least >I cannot get any meaningful search results. Ok. In that case we'll have to make

Re: cygwin-man

2002-04-08 Thread Cliff Hones
- Original Message - From: "Christopher Faylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I'll get right on that. I should note that since it is "Red Hat", not "RedHat", > >the name of the new DLL will be: > > > >"Red Hat IX".dll > > > >so, in the future, it will be necessary to quote the name of the DLL wh

Re: permission problem after installation under W2K

2002-04-08 Thread Ulrich Voss
Thanks Larry, I'm not sure, if I got the message ... I think, that you think ;-) that the problem is, that my home dir belongs to admins (which was administrators or Administratoren before) instead of admin. When I chown my home dir to admin, ls looks better, but it doesn't change anything.

Re: shell script hanging

2002-04-08 Thread James Raftery
Hello Larry, As requested strace ./test.com: also hung cygcheck -s -v -r : Cygwin Win95/NT Configuration Diagnostics Current System Time: Mon Apr 08 16:21:04 2002 Windows 2000 Professional Ver 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2 Path: C:\cygwin\usr\local\bin C:\cygwin\bin

Re: shell script hanging

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 11:49 AM 4/8/2002, James Raftery wrote: >Hello Larry, > As requested >strace ./test.com: also hung ^ Why are you calling the script "test.com"? Don't use ".com". I'd also recommend not using "test" as the name, as you might run into problems with the script bu

Re: permission problem after installation under W2K

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 12:44 PM 4/8/2002, Ulrich Voss wrote: >Thanks Larry, > >I'm not sure, if I got the message ... I think, that you think ;-) that >the problem is, that my home dir belongs to admins (which was >administrators or Administratoren before) instead of admin. > >When I chown my home dir to admin, ls

How I solved: "When I telnet to my machine I get 'bash.exe: The Applicationcan't be initialized correctly (0x0000022)'"

2002-04-08 Thread Danilo Turina
Hope this can help someone. The scenario WinNT4.0SP6a, Cygwin 13.3.20 up to date for almost all packages obtainable by setup.exe (with the exception of Ghostscript, Dejagnu, links, postgresql, tetex and all of the *-devel packages). Machine belongs to domain MYDOMAIN and I use MYDO

Install woes on W2K

2002-04-08 Thread Ross Burton
Hi, We are trying to install Cygwin on our new Windows 2000 Pro box (after getting mightily annoyed with Win98). However, we cannot install it. We login as Administrator, and run setup.exe (version 2.194.2.22), selecting "Install from Internet". Before the package selection page the install rou

Re: ProFTPd ported to Cygwin

2002-04-08 Thread Stanislav Sinyagin
--- Stanislav Sinyagin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In the evening, I'll post my sample configuration, and the README > which I'm about to finish (it's all at my home PC) As promised, see the README and the sample configuration in the attachment. The copy of this README is also attached to th

Inetutils release

2002-04-08 Thread Jeff Bailey
Hey'all! We're just getting ready for a new GNU Inetutils release, and I'm trying my best to make sure that we run correctly on Cygwin. I can't tell who's the maintainer of the package so that I can let (him/her) know when the release is ready. Can someone please let me know? Tks, Jeff Bailey

Re: Inetutils release

2002-04-08 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:02:50AM -0700, Jeff Bailey wrote: >We're just getting ready for a new GNU Inetutils release, and I'm >trying my best to make sure that we run correctly on Cygwin. I can't >tell who's the maintainer of the package so that I can let (him/her) >know when the release is rea

Re: Proprietary Software [WAS: Re: SGML/XML packages available for testing]

2002-04-08 Thread Earnie Boyd
Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: > > Hi Markus, > > I am using these distributions in my propriatory software: > Your proprietary software will need to have a GPL license if it uses any library compiled with Cygwin1.dll dependencies. Your proprietary software will need to have a GPL license if it us

cvs failing due to something adding ^m to my CVSROOT

2002-04-08 Thread Gord Wait
I've been all over the faq, and docs, and see lots of discussion on how to avoid the tar pit of Carriage Return and Linefeed, but I'm stumped - after my current update of cygwin I can no longer access my cvs server, cause something tacks a ^M on to my cvs root. Halp! Here's my setup: (which was

Re: Problem with dlopen

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 06:31 PM 4/5/2002, Frank Motta wrote: >Thanks Larry, > As a result of your response I made a -very- truncated version and got >past the dlopen error. > > The problem seems to be in the -creation- of the dll. > > the instructions at http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/dll.html result in

/etc/passwd in a NT Domain- sep copy foreach box or sym links to just 1

2002-04-08 Thread tom
Just got inetd, telnet and ftp working (using a password file created with "mkpasswd -d"). It would be nice if one could have single centrally located passwd and group file so that each workstation could set up a symbolic link to these in it's /etc directory. I tried this- in general it works

[bug?] binary mount point option in setup

2002-04-08 Thread James Nord
Hi, I apear to have found a bug in cygwins setup program 2.125.2.10 Description: When installing as administrator on XP if you select install for everyone and set the default file format to be unix then the /cygdrive mount point will be binary mode when running as the administrator user. mou

cvs failing due to something adding ^m to my CVSROOT - fixed

2002-04-08 Thread Gord Wait
I made things work by changing my working directory mount type from binmode to textmode.. (IE the directory where my source code files and CVS bits are kept is now in cygwin text mode..) Hope that makes sense! Gord Wait -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug rep

Re: /etc/passwd in a NT Domain- sep copy foreach box or sym links to just 1

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 03:47 PM 4/8/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Just got inetd, telnet and ftp working (using a password file >created with "mkpasswd -d"). > >It would be nice if one could have single centrally located >passwd and group file so that each workstation could set up >a symbolic link to these in it'

Re: [bug?] binary mount point option in setup

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 04:19 PM 4/8/2002, James Nord wrote: >Hi, > >I apear to have found a bug in cygwins setup program 2.125.2.10 > >Description: > >When installing as administrator on XP if you select install for everyone and set the >default file format to be unix then the /cygdrive mount point will be binary mo

Re: cvs failing due to something adding ^m to my CVSROOT - fixed

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 04:22 PM 4/8/2002, Gord Wait wrote: >I made things work by changing my working directory mount type >from binmode to textmode.. (IE the directory where my source >code files and CVS bits are kept is now in cygwin text mode..) > >Hope that makes sense! If the files in that directory are text

pgaccess not starting

2002-04-08 Thread Gaethofs, Danny
Dear all, I have downloaded pgaccess and installed in my directory /cygwin/usr/src/pgaccess. Thereafter created a link in the /cygwin/bin/ to the pgaccess file in the src directory. The pgaccess file contains: PATH_TO_WISH=/usr/bin/cygwish80 PGACCESS_HOME=/usr/src/pgaccess I start pgaccess us

Re: [bug?] binary mount point option in setup

2002-04-08 Thread James Nord
Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote: >At 04:19 PM 4/8/2002, James Nord wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I apear to have found a bug in cygwins setup program 2.125.2.10 >> >>Description: >> >>When installing as administrator on XP if you select install for everyone and set >the default file format to be unix

Re: [bug?] binary mount point option in setup

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 05:28 PM 4/8/2002, James Nord wrote: >Anyway, diff attached - don't know if it is correct or if it works, usual disclaimers >apply ;-) OK. I'll let Rob review that. >>>Also I couldn't find a way to change the options without running setup or regedit >again. >>>full drives can be changed

RE: MS Logo compliance - w2k / xp

2002-04-08 Thread Scott Prive
>I'm being asked if Cygwin is or will be 'MS Logo' compliant.. [snip] - You already have some responses to this, but here's one, from a different slant: *Why* are you being asked this? (Don't answer me! :-) I don't want to know, since I can't help). Questions sometimes can be leading; this q

Re: Problem with dlopen

2002-04-08 Thread Frank Motta
OOPS Thanks - I actually caught that before sending the email - that didn't seem to fix it either... below is a revised file set - :/ Hi, Maybe I hadn't stated this well -- I need some help creating a dll which I can open and use dlopen and dlsym. The description is below... Could someone

Help!

2002-04-08 Thread Rhomer L Oliveira Jr
Hi, I Installed the SSHServer3.0.2 in NT Server, where I place the PUB's generated by a client UNIX? Exemple: id_dsa, id_rsa, identyti I wait reply. Rhomer Oliveira -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html D

Re: Help!

2002-04-08 Thread Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
At 06:55 PM 4/8/2002, Rhomer L Oliveira Jr wrote: >Hi, > >I Installed the SSHServer3.0.2 in NT Server, where I > place the PUB's generated by a client UNIX? > >Exemple: id_dsa, id_rsa, identyti > > >I wait reply. I believe this has already been answered in the last week or two. Check the emai

Re: tar won't restore permissions

2002-04-08 Thread Ivan Dobrianov
Ok, I posted this question more than a year ago ... and the problem is still present in the latest Cygwin builds: tar xpvf myArchive.tar will not restore read-only permissions, i.e. files with r-- perms will get rw- permission when restored!!! I am seeing this on Win NT, 2000, and XP on FAT32

Re: tar won't restore permissions

2002-04-08 Thread Andrew Chang
FYI... I am confirming this bug, I have to use my own version of tar to get BitKeeper to pass regression test in the cygwin env.. ( I forgot what my hack was , but probably similar) Andrew - Original Message - From: "Ivan Dobrianov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAI

I noticed your on-line business...

2002-04-08 Thread tomcastellon
Dear Fellow Marketer, I happened across your business on the web, and I thought you may be interested in this. I received an email from a fellow named Tim M. telling me about a program with a new system of stacking free members in a group, and I would have a chance to upgrade ahead of the

Install error message

2002-04-08 Thread Kenneth Cabrera
How does this error message means? Can't open (null) for reading: No such file How can I correct it? Thank you! Kenneth Cabrera -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.

I noticed your on-line business...

2002-04-08 Thread tomcastellon
Dear Fellow Marketer, I happened across your business on the web, and I thought you may be interested in this. I received an email from a fellow named Tim M. telling me about a program with a new system of stacking free members in a group, and I would have a chance to upgrade ahead of the

Re: ip.h & tcp.h

2002-04-08 Thread Wu Yongwei
ChangeLog: BSD-style header files ip.h, tcp.h, and udp.h are added, which include definitions for IP, TCP, and UDP packet header structures. Positions: * ip.h.diff is against /usr/include/netinet/ip.h * tcp.h.diff is against /usr/include/netinet/tcp.h * udp.h should be added to /usr/include/neti

Re: tar won't restore permissions

2002-04-08 Thread Randall R Schulz
Oy. There's nothing wrong with file modes in Cygwin (or Cygwin's port of "tar"), if you know how to use them and how they're implemented. There are usually some few irreducible discrepancies introduced by an emulation environment, and in Cygwin's case, POSIX file mode emulation is one of the

RE: cygwin-man

2002-04-08 Thread Gary R. Van Sickle
> > > DESCRIPTION > > >Cygwin is a UNIX environment, developed by Red Hat, for > > >Windows. > > > > > > > Cygwin was up and running long before Red Hat came into the picture. Which > > is > > why it's not Redhatwin ;-). > > Straight off the homepage. Great. Do they also have

gcc linker not producing executable

2002-04-08 Thread Dennis McNulty
I'm running cygwin on a Win98 system, and have gcc.exe and g++.exe (in /bin) both with version 2.95.3-5, and both with mod dates of Jun/17/2001. g++ works just fine, and it can compile and link simple programs with a single command. However, gcc will not produce an executable, neither following

Re: Proprietary Software [WAS: Re: SGML/XML packages available for testing]

2002-04-08 Thread Stanislav Sinyagin
--- Earnie Boyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: > > > > Hi Markus, > > > > I am using these distributions in my propriatory software: > > > > Your proprietary software will need to have a GPL license if it uses any > library compiled with Cygwin1.dll dependencies. Your

Re: Proprietary Software [WAS: Re: SGML/XML packages available for testing]

2002-04-08 Thread Stanislav Sinyagin
--- Stanislav Sinyagin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > well, these are few Perl scripts that we use internally, and the documentation > written in DocBook XML. It's no way a software for sale, nor a package which > could be useful to anyone else, because it's really domain-specific. Forgot to men