Actually, one thing that obscures your message much more than your sarcasm
is the fact that you insist on attributing things to the people you're
replying to that they didn't actually say. I never said anything about any
of your professional abilities or achievements except your total inability
to
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Luc Préfontaine <
lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> wrote:
> Prioritizing the 'good' form over the substance is the first step toward
> political correctness and lobotomy. Civility is more about form than
>
If you can't respect people's wishes about how they want to b
True that. While I'd prefer a more common indentation style to be adopted,
I'd definitely settle just for Rich's style being applied consistently
everywhere.
Trying to account for indentation inconsistencies when working on a patch
is not fun at all. So yeah - the real problems about the formatting
Lets make it clear (the ironic portion seems to obfuscate my email).
I did not criticIzed his work and if you ask me, yes his work is stellar.
I fully agreed with him that maintenance is often a less than funny task.
Inconsistency in code when maintaining code however is more the norm than the
Leaving aside your usual "humour", you are once again setting up a total
strawman. Nicola did not say that maintenance should be as much fun as
writing new code, nor did he propose rewriting anything. He made a very
specific claim - that contributing to the Clojure codebase is much less
pleasant th
--- advanced warning: the following section contains a lethal form of irony,
please skip it if your health condition does not tolerate irony ---
Sure and I never maintained code written by others in 30 years... Never wrote
patches, never had to comply with odd indentation habits.
I am an absolu
I take it you have never worked on a patch for clojure.
I have, and I can tell you that it's not the indentation style the
issue -- everybody likes his own and it's definitely in the
maintainer's rights to chose what indentation style should be used and
for contributors to adapt, I don't have a pro
Is there any need to speak with this tone and this arrogance? It's just an
attempt to improve things, and I think there is nothing negative about it.
I think the initial motivation of this email is change things to be better
and with good intentions. It make sense to attack good intentions without
Prioritizing the 'good' form over the substance is the first step toward
political correctness and lobotomy. Civility is more about form than substance
and has
various meaning depending on the people involved. You can say horrendous things
using a civil tone. It's as unbearable as a crude stateme
On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 7:02:43 AM UTC-5, Luc wrote:
>
> I agree with you but changes like this need time to bloom and are
> motivated by increased pressure to release.
>
> We have been seeing more of that in the last year.
>
> Linus did not find solid maintainers day one. You need to test d
On 18 July 2015 at 19:54, Luc Préfontaine
wrote:
> My tone does not please you ? It could be worse and I reserve my right to
> free speech. Have a look at some Linus rants. I am far from that level.
>
I think everyone in this community should aspire to more than "I'm not as
rude as Linus".
> T
I agree with you but changes like this need time to bloom and are motivated by
increased pressure to release.
We have been seeing more of that in the last year.
Linus did not find solid maintainers day one. You need to test drive
individuals before you can delegate significant chunks and not wo
Your comments are one-sided.
When I modify code written by others, I follow their style.
I do not complain about their code formatting habits.
I wrote/modified enough code in 30 years written by hundreds of individuals to
find emphasis on code formatting and variable naming a waste of time and
On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 5:44:29 PM UTC+2, Luc wrote:
>
> Sure, indentation is what gets the code running on metal :))
>
> Not ranting here, just my abs dying from the pain as I laugh :))
>
Comments like that are often linked as an expample of "Functional
Programmers" attitude.
Let's not d
> Many people feel this way, but ultimately Clojure is Rich's project and I
guess Cognitect's to some extent. If they don't want to run it like other
more open & contribution-friendly OSS projects this is obviously their
right.
Similar concern and attitude caused apearence of io.js. Do we wan
On Sunday, 19 July 2015 00:03:04 UTC+8, Andy Fingerhut wrote:
>
> I don't think the tweets you link are the 'normal approach'. I would call
> them pretty unusual in several aspects. For one, I think that for the vast
> majority of Clojure tickets created, no on asks and gets Rich's comments on
On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 9:16:39 PM UTC-4, Linus Ericsson wrote:
>
> Dear Mr/Ms/Mme/PhD Dynamics,
>
> I have this epic joke I would like yo send you, please fill in your fax
> number in the boxes below (please write clearly and use a pen with black
> ink, make sure the two carbon papers are
Dear Mr/Ms/Mme/PhD Dynamics,
I have this epic joke I would like yo send you, please fill in your fax
number in the boxes below (please write clearly and use a pen with black
ink, make sure the two carbon papers are correctly aligned).
[_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_]
Thanks,
Linus
Sent from my Ericsson Ho
On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 8:22:35 PM UTC-4, Linus Ericsson wrote:
>
> In cases like these I would strongly suggest Zach, Kyle and the Clojure
> Core-team to strive to communicate by phone
>
My God. First contributor agreements that have to be submitted by Pony
Express, and now *phone calls*
It is sad that Zach and Kyle thinks they spent time in vain.
Clojure is less about code and more about holistic considerations and
intentions than most other software projects. Jira (and mail chains such as
this) are probably the worst possible hammers on communicating intentions
and more holis
Linux and Linus? Github vs Jira?
Enough of these distractions.
The issue here is that brilliant people like Zach Tellman is "strongly
disinclined to make contributions to the core Clojure implementation in the
future". That Kyle Kingsbury, another brilliant developer, feels
stonewalled - and e
You mentionned RedHat Linux centric type corporations. There are a lot more
businesses that are not Linux
centric business wise. They use it but provide something else on top.
Did you even read this article against your own statement ? :)
A huge number of occasional contributors were not reluctan
Andrey:
Pull requests have come up many times before, but since it has been quite
some time since the last time, perhaps most people have not seen Rich's
answer the last time he responded to it. Below is a direct link, if you
want to read it. The short answer is that he prefers the work flow of
On 18 July 2015 at 22:52, Luc Préfontaine
wrote:
> Each linux kernel release involves hundreds of people.
> Many release had above a thousand contributors.
> This is for your enlightenment and are old figures:
>
> http://royal.pingdom.com/2012/04/16/linux-kernel-development-numbers/
>
Did you ev
Each linux kernel release involves hundreds of people.
Many release had above a thousand contributors.
This is for your enlightenment and are old figures:
http://royal.pingdom.com/2012/04/16/linux-kernel-development-numbers/
There are as many people not officially hired to work for linux operatin
On 18 July 2015 at 20:18, Luc Prefontaine
wrote:
> Aaah ! The pull request looms again :)
>
> A bug tracking system is essentialy to coordinate efforts, pull request
> are not a mechanism to track fixes/improvements and discuss about
> them. That may work for a very small team. The # of clojure c
On 18 July 2015 at 18:48, Colin Yates wrote:
> +1 (although I maybe wouldn’t be so mocking in my tone ;-). Since when did
> software design by committee work; anyone remember J2EE? (and yes, that
> does deserve my mocking tone).
>
Why do people always say that a committee is the only alternative
On 18 July 2015 at 18:44, Luc Prefontaine
wrote:
> Sure, indentation is what gets the code running on metal :))
>
That remark is wrong on so many levels...
In the words of the legendary SICP authors - "Programs must be written for
people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."
Excuse-me if I hurt your personal feelings but most of the proponents of pull
requests
so far have been in fact extremely allergic to report problems/improvements
in Jira first before submitting a code change.
I was addressing this audience because this subject comes back over and over
again. My
Everyone: let's keep the tone civil.
Andrey: thanks for your workflow suggestions. I politely re-decline all of
them, having considered all your points multiple times over several years and
having chosen approaches that I believe are better matched with my objectives.
The objective of Clojur
Re jira: we have started the process to upgrade some of the current
infrastructure. This will take a while (likely months) as it involves
contracts, purchases, and upgrades (where jira does not have a stellar
reputation). Even jira from N years ago is significantly more capable than
the github
On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Luc Prefontaine <
lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> wrote:
> Aaah ! The pull request looms again :)
>
> A bug tracking system is essentialy to coordinate efforts, pull request
> are not a mechanism to track fixes/improvements and discuss about
> them. That may work for
Aaah ! The pull request looms again :)
A bug tracking system is essentialy to coordinate efforts, pull request are not
a mechanism to track fixes/improvements and discuss about
them. That may work for a very small team. The # of clojure contributors far
excess that size.
Pull requests/gitbhub i
I'm speaking very much as a passenger in this community, and I've had the
privilege of meeting just a few of you people, but that may be no handicap.
It's a worthwhile debate to have, but this is very much an edge case. Rich has
kindly and wisely reduced his own bum-print in the ecosystem so mu
On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Bozhidar Batsov
wrote:
> On 18 July 2015 at 14:13, Andrey Antukh wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I have some, maybe controversial, questions...
>>
>> A little bit of context:
>> https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/621806683908542464
>>
>> Why this is like a normal approach fo
On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Colin Yates wrote:
> +1 (although I maybe wouldn’t be so mocking in my tone ;-). Since when did
> software design by committee work; anyone remember J2EE? (and yes, that
> does deserve my mocking tone).
>
> I have no idea about the details being discussed here/why
I don't think the tweets you link are the 'normal approach'. I would call
them pretty unusual in several aspects. For one, I think that for the vast
majority of Clojure tickets created, no on asks and gets Rich's comments on
them before they are created. Second, most end up being committed as the
Sure, indentation is what gets the code running on metal :))
Not ranting here, just my abs dying from the pain as I laugh :))
As for the contrib process, go have a look at Linux. You'll be happy that Rich
is cool by every meaning of the word.
There's this misconception about open source that we
+1 (although I maybe wouldn’t be so mocking in my tone ;-). Since when did
software design by committee work; anyone remember J2EE? (and yes, that does
deserve my mocking tone).
I have no idea about the details being discussed here/why people’s noses are
out of joint, but I can think of as many
Btw, here's a bit more colour on the inclusion of tuples, Zack's own
thoughts on the subject
https://gist.github.com/ztellman/9ded0b77281f48942b68
On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 2:14:02 PM UTC+3, Andrey Antukh wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> I have some, maybe controversial, questions...
>
> A little bit of
On 18 July 2015 at 14:13, Andrey Antukh wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I have some, maybe controversial, questions...
>
> A little bit of context:
> https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/621806683908542464
>
> Why this is like a normal approach for managing third party contributions
> to clojure core? This kind of
Hi!
I have some, maybe controversial, questions...
A little bit of context: https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/621806683908542464
Why this is like a normal approach for managing third party contributions
to clojure core? This kind of things the only discourages the
contributions. Maybe I don't ha
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