On Sun, Apr 05, 2020 at 01:20:09PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> well, close.
> His BASIC quote is:
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students
> that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers
> they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of re
On 4/7/2020 12:31 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote:
*That said,* there are definitely some languages that are more
conducive to building these habits than others (and, within each
group, many that emphasize different aspects more or less strongly.) I
can't speak to COBOL as I've never had cause to
> From: Neil Thompson
>
> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (parti
At 18:25 05-04-20, you wrote:
It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> >>Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching
> >>should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
>
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> >I'm pretty sure he said th
Here in Canada, ongoing for several years now, we've had the major fiasco of
the Phoenix payroll system.
I've never heard an accounting of where the fault lies, or why IBM isn't being
held more accountable.
A brief summary from Wikipedia:
The Phoenix pay system is a payroll processing system for
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:28 AM Jim Manley via cctalk
wrote:
> Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
> nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
> she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer. Since I was a Navy MSCS
> student, she "signe
On 4/6/20 2:27 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
> Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
> nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
> she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer. Since I was a Navy MSCS
> student, she "signed" it with st
Another article on this subject today. This one claims the
Mainframe in question is 40 years old. Maybe it really is
a 360/40. :-)
bill
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin wrote:
I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming should
be BASIC. VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification, without
having had to already learn underlying structures, variable types, how to run
a compiler, etc. After creat
> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:17 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 05/04/2020 22:27, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
>> comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
>> translate a real world
On 4/6/20 1:35 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
One of these days, when I have time, I'll go into one of the more
bizarre COBOL implementations, involving inter-process communication
with "chains" of modules being resident either wholly or in part in one
of several mainframes or in bulk core, wi
On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 at 11:28, Jim Manley via cctalk
wrote:
>
> Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
> nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
> she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer. Since I was a Navy MSCS
> student, she "signe
Speaking of COBOL and Admiral Grace Hopper, I have one of her actual
nanoseconds, a piece of insulated solid wire about 11.2 inches long, when
she was a Superintendent's guest lecturer. Since I was a Navy MSCS
student, she "signed" it with stripes and gaps in magic marker, as the ones
and zeroes i
unday, April 5, 2020 4:37:11 PM
> Subject: Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
>>> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died
>>
One of these days, when I have time, I'll go into one of the more
bizarre COBOL implementations, involving inter-process communication
with "chains" of modules being resident either wholly or in part in one
of several mainframes or in bulk core, with comm links extending
throughout the US.
cf. "Zo
At 16:12 05-04-20, you wrote:
On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing
On 4/5/2020 8:46 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
>
>>> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we
>>> be now?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
>>
>
> All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
> I view com
It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> >>Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching
> >>should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
>
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> >I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totall
On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be now?
Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
schools promot
I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming
should be BASIC. VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification,
without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable
types, how to run a compiler, etc. After creating first program, and a
few more, in a ve
On 2020-04-05 8:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> well, close.
>>> His BASIC quote is:
>>> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students
>>> that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers
>>> they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>>
well, close.
His BASIC quote is:
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that
have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are
mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Yep. You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)
. . . and a REAL programmer can write FORTRAN in any language.
On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, Peter Schow via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
wrote:
Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are
only tangentially related!
It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himself
a program
On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the
On 4/5/20 4:39 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
On 4/5/2020 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Stories like this abound. Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
well into the 80s?
--Chuck
I did write some COBOL on the IBM 1410
On 4/5/2020 4:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named
"Outer products". They had various math and physics related shirts, for
example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral form). Also
one
On 4/5/2020 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> Stories like this abound. Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
> well into the 80s?
>
> --Chuck
>
I kind of doubt that, unless they had a version of IBM's IMS for it --
which I
> On April 5, 2020 at 5:28 PM Peter Schow via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via
> cctalk wrote:> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a
> computer programmer. The two areonly tangentially related!It's funny that you
> say this because Dijkstra explictly c
On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
wrote:
> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are
> only tangentially related!
It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himself
a programmer in his 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture:
"I mar
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has m
On 05/04/2020 22:27, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming,
Dijkstra was a co
On 4/5/20 2:27 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming, and anyone who h
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 23:02, Paul Koning via cctalk
wrote:
>
> I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college,
> named "Outer products". They had various math and physics related shirts,
> for example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral
>
I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit. In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
own, as many of
I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named
"Outer products". They had various math and physics related shirts, for
example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral
form). Also one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.
For computer
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
well, close.
His BASIC quote is:
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to stud
Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching
should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
well, close.
His BA
They were told to update their software.
Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
the update project.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
throw out the baby with the water
build a completely new IT infra
There were a lot of differing opinions, some of which held out over
time. Even Fred Brooks had to admit that David Parnas was right about
data encapsulation
On 05/04/2020 15:53, geneb via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cr
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching
should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
g
https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Yet another article
> On April 5, 2020 at 11:56 AM Chris Zach via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> > What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully,
> > and you watch the clip.They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do thbis
> > work!That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could
> >
to be traded in 1/2, 1/4,
1/8, and 1/16ths of a dollar)
-Original Message-
From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:29 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers
On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> On Apr 5, 2020, at 1:27 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> Chris Zach wrote:
>> That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
>> myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
>> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP
>
> Am I wrong in
On 4/4/2020 10:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
In December 1999, the
On 4/5/20 7:24 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
> The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
> to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
> academics know what's best for the industry.
COBOL was remarkable
Chris Zach wrote:
> That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
> myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP
Am I wrong in understanding the VT05 was 20 lines, and the VT50 12
lines?
By the way, I believe
What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and
you watch the clip.
They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do thbis work!
That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
No, n
On 4/5/20 12:22 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk
wrote:
lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urg
On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:26 AM Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:22 AM Zane Healy via cctalk
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>>
On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:22 AM Zane Healy via cctalk
wrote:
>
>
> > On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>
>
> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-yo
Yeah, my contract to a large University fixing all their COBOL stuff
finished in October 1998.
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 16:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Sa
On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
In December 1999, they
On 4/4/20 11:06 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
to destroy
This may have already been said, but I have worked with a little COBOL
within MS .NET for fun, some years ago, just to see it run. I am sure
that's what they're intending the candidates for this job will have had
experience doing. My guess would be it's just as important to be a .NET
guru who can
lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> >
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>
> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL prog
On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> In 1970, in my absolutely bottom of the totem pole job at Goddard Space
> Flight Center, I questioned the use of 2 decimal digits for the year.
> (FORTRAN) I was told, "don't be ridiculous. All of this will be redone
> long before that, and WE w
On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
In December 1999, the
On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>
>
> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>
To b
On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
They were told to update their software.
Now, 20 years later, t
I seem to recall they were using a lot of pdp11's, so oddly enough my
Cobol81 skills might be handy here I could even work remotely on my
pdp11/73 and hook up to them with DecNet
Hm
On 4/4/2020 11:06 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-n
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