Mike Katz wrote:
> I want to add to this argument and ask Is bit 0 the high order bit
> (like on the PDP-8) or the low order bit (like on the 6809)?
It's the same across all PDPs... except maybe the 11, I'm sure someone
will remind me.
There are good arguments for numbering "bit N" such that its
I did a bit of searching on Google Books and there is an article from the June
28, 1972 issue of ComputerWorld that states "Ever since Hitachi introduce the
Hitac 10 as a 'personal computer' in 1969, not only the regular computer
manufacturers but electric appliance, calculator, watchmakers, com
EDI? just before the RR underpas, south of Foster?
or, come to think of it, that long ago, the place sort of across from Allied
Radio at 100 N western Ave?
back then, American science center was on Northwest Highway, south of Devon.
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 8:54 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk wr
What/when was the first personal TV? :-)
On Tue, 28 May 2024, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
When someone slapped a handle on the top of a console and called it
"portable"?
My Philco from about 1960 had a handle, and was portable,
But, I gave my parents their first COLOR TV (a used one)
On 5/28/24 19:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
What/when was the first personal TV? :-)
When someone slapped a handle on the top of a console and called it
"portable"?
Despite the fact that Fred was being cheeky, a serious contender is
probably this tricorder-llike thing from the end of
What/when was the first personal TV? :-)
I believe that place on Elston was either Joseph Electronics or The
American Science Center depending on whether is was in Chicago or Niles.
On 5/28/2024 8:06 PM, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
We spent 64-65 in japan, bought a TV, brought it back, channels were different,
so i bought a surplus
We spent 64-65 in japan, bought a TV, brought it back, channels were different,
so i bought a surplus tv tuner at that place on elston in Chicago an replaced
it. These were tubes.
I started in electronics taking apart the 8" tv we were given, which had two
complete chassis, each with a hefty p
On 5/28/2024 6:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2024, Adrian Godwin wrote:
As a child. my parents weren't sufficiently enamoured of televisions
to buy
one, but I was given some old ones.
The one on the bottom had working sound and the one on the top had
working
video.
When
On 5/28/24 17:02, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 2024-05-28 5:45 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 5/28/24 16:29, ben via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote:
>>>
So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why?
>>>
>>> I am grumpy about OS's like MS
On Tue, 28 May 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
If the file system and basic I/O functions drivers are in ROM what is the
difference between a BIOS and an Operating System.
Technically speaking, for some, the BIOS offers a hardware abstraction level to some more
generic software that runs on
On 2024-05-28 5:45 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/28/24 16:29, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote:
So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why?
I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing
DOS to handle screen,
On 5/28/24 16:29, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote:
>
>> So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why?
>
> I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing
> DOS to handle screen, and serial IO.
> I also favor OS's that don't
So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why?
On Tue, 28 May 2024, ben via cctalk wrote:
I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing
DOS to handle screen, and serial IO.
I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block.
Is it not "Re
> On May 28, 2024, at 5:49 PM, Mike Katz wrote:
>
> Paul, you said:
> I'd say an OS is a software system that runs on bare metal (or equivalent,
> like a VM) and offers a set of services intended to make creating and running
> applications easier. In that sense, RT-11 SJ or OS/360 PCP are o
On 2024-05-28 1:23 p.m., John via cctalk wrote:
So what, then, consitutes a Real Operating System, and why?
I am grumpy about OS's like MSDOS, in that programs kept by passing
DOS to handle screen, and serial IO.
I also favor OS's that don't require one to build a file control block.
"If your working television sits on top of your non-working television,
you might be a redneck." - Jeff Foxworthy
On Wed, 29 May 2024, Adrian Godwin wrote:
As a child. my parents weren't sufficiently enamoured of televisions to buy
one, but I was given some old ones.
The one on the bottom had w
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:08 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> "If your working television sits on top of your non-working television,
> you might be a redneck." - Jeff Foxworthy
>
>
As a child. my parents weren't sufficiently enamoured of televisions to buy
one, but I wa
Fred,
I'm sorry but those arguments are religion to most of us and the clear
answer has already been decided (tongue firmly implanted in cheek)😛
1. Between Vi and EMACS - Any editor where you have a cursor movement
mode that is separate from edit mode (since the invention of arrow keys
or t
On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
I'll make it simple.
if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be
used to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer.
Corporations tend to buy things on purchase orders, including open
ended, for hundred
I'll make it simple.
if a computer is being purchased by a non-human, i.e. corporation, to be used
to benefit the corporation, it is NOT a personal computer. Corporations tend
to buy things on purchase orders, including open ended, for hundreds or
thousands at a time.
One way to determine if
On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
How about can we be done with this now? :D
Sorry, but "FIRST" and "PERSONAL" are permanent topics,
along with emacs V VI, big-endian/little-endian, Mac/PC,
6502/Z80, etc.
On Tue, 28 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Why should that matter? Shouldn't it be how they were used rather than how
they were acquired?
About a quarter century ago, the college gave a computer to each tenured
professor. Although possibly nominally owned by the college, they did
Paul, you said:/
/
/I'd say an OS is a software system that runs on bare metal (or
equivalent, like a VM) and offers a set of services intended to make
creating and running applications easier. In that sense, RT-11 SJ or
OS/360 PCP are operating systems, just as Linux is. QRQ is on the edge
(
On Tue, 28 May 2024, John via cctalk wrote:
Even putting aside what
"handles IRQs" means here (yes, strictly speaking the IRQs on the IBM
PC are handled by the BIOS and/or add-on drivers/utilties, but DOS most
certainly makes use of the facilities provided,)
Installed add-on drivers/utilities b
On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
Since I belive ALL IBM computers in that era were ONLY leased, it is
technically still the property of IBM and they could claim it back.
--Carey
So, . . .
RENTING (including "rent to own" scams) a "personal computer" makes it not
"personal"?
On Tue, 28 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them.
2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees, not
a lone entrepreneur). I figure asking means that maybe you do. and since I
believe no 360 b
On Tue, 28 May 2024, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
In 1971 or 1972 I was in the Washington DC airport executive lounge. Dolly
Parton was in there, she had two gofers getting her coffee and stuff, and she
had a large "bag phone" that she was on a lot of the time, presumably making
arrangements fo
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:34 AM CAREY SCHUG wrote:
>
>
> On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham wrote:
>
> What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their
> employees for their individual personal use? Now what?
>
> Sellam
>
> Thanks for carrying the proposition to the l
> On May 28, 2024, at 3:24 PM, John via cctalk wrote:
>
> From: ben
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer]
>
>> The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer.
>> CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the
From: ben
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: [cctalk] Re: terminology [was: First Personal Computer]
> The third thing is a real OS. Nobody has one, as a personal computer.
> CP/M and MSDOS does not handle IRQ's. Unix for the PDP-11 is real
> operating system but not personal as it requires a ad
On 5/28/2024 2:28 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
On 5/28/24 10:00, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
Au crontraire, I belive the first mobile phones were mostly purchased
by corporations for their executives to use, if the executive left,
the phone stayed with the corporation. Early mobile pho
Since I belive ALL IBM computers in that era were ONLY leased, it is
technically still the property of IBM and they could claim it back.
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 1:32 PM CDT Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> On 5/28/24 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Same concept as, if one guy livi
> On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham wrote:
>
> What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their
> employees for their individual personal use? Now what?
>
> Sellam
>
1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them.
2. do you know of suc
On 5/28/24 12:02, ben via cctalk wrote:
Same concept as, if one guy living in a formerly
industrial loft has water cooling, and 300 amp 3 phase
power available, that does NOT make any computer
requiring that "personal". For that I'd say must be able
to plug into 50% of all homes, but reali
On 5/28/24 10:00, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
Au crontraire, I belive the first mobile phones were mostly purchased by
corporations for their executives to use, if the executive left, the phone
stayed with the corporation. Early mobile phones were NOT personal devices.
In 1971 or 1972 I was
Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-worlds-oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0XLQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_zU9npLd2a
In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee
sapling back then.
It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since
there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The
grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little c
More on gas radios:
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/thermoelectric/thermoelectric.htm#rl
--Chuck
On 5/28/24 10:05, ben via cctalk wrote:
> Just what is a gas radio?
One powered by thermoelectricity fueled by lighting gas. See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Museum
Looks to be an English peculiarity. Akin to the wood-gas powered card.
--Chuck
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote:
> Just what is a gas radio?
A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains.
Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes
until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both
energy sour
On 2024-05-28 10:58 a.m., Tony Duell wrote:
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:56 PM ben via cctalk wrote:
--First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some
fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared in
basement, real screw in fuses (not safet
Same concept as, if one guy living in a formerly industrial loft has water cooling, and 300 amp 3
phase power available, that does NOT make any computer requiring that "personal". For
that I'd say must be able to plug into 50% of all homes, but realize more quibbling might apply
there, suc
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:56 PM ben via cctalk wrote:
> > --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some
> > fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared
> > in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used
>
On 2024-05-28 8:43 a.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
so if ONE person maybe living in a loft formerly industrial space has water
cooling, and 200 amp 3 phase in their house, that automatically makes EVERY
computer using that power personal computer eligible?
--First Appartment I lived in had
I thought that was covered by the suggested person buying for their kids being
personal? No?
sorry, my apologies, I should have made a paragraph break, I was mixing
purchase orders with individual purchases. see square brackets for
clarifications
---
"Actually, I'd prefer to say 10% of purc
Au crontraire, I belive the first mobile phones were mostly purchased by
corporations for their executives to use, if the executive left, the phone
stayed with the corporation. Early mobile phones were NOT personal devices.
Back to "who bought them" as a criteria.
--Carey
> On 05/28/2024 9:16
On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:57 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk
wrote:
> I still return to.
>
> -->Who bought them?<--
>
What if Dad bought one for use by the entire family?
Sellam
I still return to.
-->Who bought them?<--
Unless at least 5% (see quibbling below) of new purchases were by private
individuals, not required for their gainful employment, they are "single user
computers", not "personal computers". "Personal" is how they are used, not how
they could be used.
so if ONE person maybe living in a loft formerly industrial space has water
cooling, and 200 amp 3 phase in their house, that automatically makes EVERY
computer using that power personal computer eligible?
--First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some
fixtures for
On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:16 AM Paul Koning via cctalk
wrote:
>
> And that makes sense. Consider that cell phones have always clearly been
> personal phones, but the first ones were definitely not priced for the
> "average person", not by a long shot.
>
> paul
>
Are you comparing a teleph
> On May 28, 2024, at 9:56 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> ...
> I don't consider whether a computer is inexpensive enough for the average
> person to use as a criteria for whether a computer could be considered by
> nature a personal computer.
And that makes sense. Consider that c
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 8:15 AM Dave Dunfield via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30)
> at
> >length and found one could easily use this computer as a "personal
> >computer".
>
> I've not see one of these - that's a VER
On 5/28/2024 9:01 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
On 2024-05-28 08:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I would love to have copies of the image HEX files so I could get
some of mine running again.
What do you have, an 11/23+ or BDV?
I have both available. But mostly I would like to find
> On May 28, 2024, at 9:23 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/26/2024 2:50 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer,
>> is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is
>> to have ample memory and IO to run useful
On 5/26/2024 2:11 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
how many people here still use the 16Kb (favorite machine)
with tape IO?
I can, and have recently. TRS-80 Model I. In order to do
some stuff with Tiny Pascal. But not so much any more as
the machine also has 48K available if I hook up the EI
On 5/26/2024 2:50 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:
I think the most important thing for a Personal Computer,
is the average Joe, can afford and use it. The second thing is
to have ample memory and IO to run useful programs. The basic Apple
I,II does not count as many others as it had BASIC in ROM
On 2024-05-28 08:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I would love to have copies of the image HEX files so I could get
some of mine running again.
What do you have, an 11/23+ or BDV?
I got my images here:
http://oldpc.su/articles/dec_roms/
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:47 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 5/27/2024 5:47 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> > On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:2
On 5/25/2024 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was
as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more
power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes, d
On 5/27/2024 5:47 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
On 2024-05-26 12:30, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 4:26 AM Glen Slick wrote:
Anyway, if the SCM90448 EPROMs for your M8189 KDF11-B are actually
Motorola MC68764 / MC68766 EPROMs,
I have one board with MCM68
>With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30) at
>length and found one could easily use this computer as a "personal
>computer".
I've not see one of these - that's a VERY early system! Sounds like it
could have been used for "personal" computing - but was it common and
[Forwarded from Martin Bishop as some anti spam mechanism rejects his posts]
-Original Message-
From: Martin Bishop
Sent: 27 May 2024 23:57
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
In the UK the domestic wiring norm is 13A
63 matches
Mail list logo
