ndiswrapper

[Lee]

FC14 missing ndiswrapper. Should I try old b43 kernel mod?

Lee
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Re: what just happened (time went backwards?)

[lee]

"Lars E. Pettersson"  writes:

> The syslog daemon writes whatever systemd sends to it. On one of my
> systems systemd decided to send the whole systemd journal to the
> syslog daemon, by doing so starting to write log lines from last year
> in my /var/log/messages.

What is the purpose of this log duplication?  When systemd has its own
logs, it doesn´t seem necessary to duplicate them by sending their
contents to syslogd.


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Re: what just happened (time went backwards?)

[lee]

"Lars E. Pettersson"  writes:

> On 02/26/14 19:23, lee wrote:
>> What is the purpose of this log duplication?  When systemd has its own
>> logs, it doesn´t seem necessary to duplicate them by sending their
>> contents to syslogd.
>
> One could also ask why systemd duplicates the logging formerly only
> done by syslogd.
>
> For me looking through my ASCII-based text-logs created by syslogd is
> far faster than using journalctl. Things that takes over 25 minutes
> with journalctl, only takes 66 seconds grepping the syslogd logs. (see
> bug 1047719, that no-one seems to care about)
>
> ASCII-based logs can be read by anybody using any editor. To read the
> journal you need journalctl, or similar program, as the journal is
> binary and not readily readable.
>
> Another reason is that there still exist programs/daemons/etc. that
> rely on the logs in /var/log.
>
> If you do not like syslogd, well F20 does not ship it anymore...

What I don´t like is unnecessary double logging and hidden log files
that cannot be read without special software, like binary ones.

How do I disable these binary logs and have everything logged with
syslogd?  Most of the logging goes there anyway.

How do they think users will ever get a working system with no logging
and not even an mta installed?


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Re: Most Efficient Network File sharing protocol?

[lee]

Dan Mossor  writes:

> When the DVD is built, I pull the updates across the local network to
> my machine and build the DVD there. These <4GiB transfers sometimes
> take close to 3 to 4 hours using NFS, and it is a Gigabit
> network.

Have you checked the bandwidth usage during these transfers?  That
transferring a file not even 4GB in size takes 3--4 hours makes me think
that the problem is not so much the protocol you´re using but something
else.

As to NFS, I have had bad experiences with it, like network cards
freezing up and computers being halted because NFS failed for unknown
reasons.  I never got it to work reliably and would not recommend using
NFS for anything.

Samba may be the easiest one to use, with scp and rsync as alternatives,
followed by FTP.

Efficiency is not necessarily measured solely in what kind of overhead a
protocol burdens the networking hardware with.  In the end, you want to
get the job done reliably within reasonable amounts of time and without
going to lengths.  A few seconds more or less on transfers of up to 4GB,
caused by differences in the design of the transfer protocols, are
probably irrelevant in your scenario.  As much as I like efficiency,
sacrificing "bare metal" efficiency for benefits like greater ease of
use and increased reliability can be quite worthwhile when it yields a
better overall efficiency.

While your transfers take hours to complete, what does it matter which
protocol you´re using?  With any of them, the transfers are likely to
take these unreasonable amounts of time until you fix the real problem.
Once it is fixed, you can still experiment with different protocols and
find out which one gives the best results.


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Re: F19: Is this an httpd attack attempt?

[lee]

"eoconno...@gmail.com"  writes:

> What's the best way to avoid/prevent this from happening?...
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Mark Haney" 
> To: 
> Subject: F19: Is this an httpd attack attempt?
> Date: Mon, Mar 3, 2014 11:59 am
>
>
>
>
> On 03/03/14 11:42, Dan Thurman wrote:
>> 
>> It looks to me like a successful indirect connection?
>> 
>> The following is taken from /var/log/httpd/access_log
>> 
>> 185.4.227.194 - - [03/Mar/2014:07:27:49 -0800] "GET 
>> http://24x7-allrequestsallowed.com/?PHPSESSID=1rmsxtj500143TRMUTP_ODZZWA
>>
>> 
> HTTP/1.1" 200 5264 "-" "-"
>> 
>
> It certainly looks that way.  I see several of those kinds of GETs a
> day on our web servers.  Not from that particular domain, but similar
> types of GETs.
>
> A quick google points to similar GET requests to that domain as far
> back as 2011, and the domain itself isn't live, just a placeholder for
> parked domain.

Could someone please explain why/how this may be considered as an attack
or at least as something bad?  Someone requesting an URL from a web
server that doesn´t serve this URL --- or doesn´t serve the specified
domain at all --- could be caused by incorrect responses from name
servers, couldn´t it?

What is it in particular that would distinguish the request in question
from others?


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Re: Most Efficient Network File sharing protocol?

[lee]

"Patrick O'Callaghan"  writes:

> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:34 AM, lee  wrote:
>> As to NFS, I have had bad experiences with it, like network cards
>> freezing up and computers being halted because NFS failed for unknown
>> reasons.  I never got it to work reliably and would not recommend using
>> NFS for anything.
>
> I've used NFS reliably for over 20 years. I don't claim it's the best
> solution for every scenario, but I don't see how the use of a
> high-level protocol running on top of UDP or IP can freeze a network
> card. A bad driver or a hardware fault might, but that has nothing to
> do with NFS.

Yes, it was a cheap crappy network card with a realtek chip at first,
and changing it for a much better 3Com card didn´t solve the problem.
Freezes would occur when files were transferred with NFS and otherwise
not, and not only the network card was frozen.  You had to press the
reset button.  That was almost 20 years ago.

Some ppl say that NFS stands for "network failure system".  Since I have
experienced this 'feature' of NFS, I simply don´t recommend NFS, and I
don´t use it when it can be avoided.

It may still be the best solution for the OP or not.


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Re: F19: Is this an httpd attack attempt?

[lee]

"Wolfgang S. Rupprecht"  writes:

> lee  writes:
>> Could someone please explain why/how this may be considered as an attack
>> or at least as something bad?  Someone requesting an URL from a web
>> server that doesn´t serve this URL --- or doesn´t serve the specified
>> domain at all --- could be caused by incorrect responses from name
>> servers, couldn´t it?
>>
>> What is it in particular that would distinguish the request in question
>> from others?
>
> This is not an attack, but someone fishing for information.  I
> understand that apache in some modes give you the first configured vhost
> when encountering a query like that.   Someone wanted to see if there
> was something juicy lying around.  The server served the URL 
> "http:///"
> which was the index.{html,htm,php,etc} file in the vhost0 root directory.

Sorry, I still don´t understand.  You seem to imply that any request to
a web server which, for whatever reason, doesn´t serve the request or
doesn´t serve for the domain given in the request --- I´m not sure which
is in question here: the domain or the request --- can be considered as
an attempt to obtain information the requester is not supposed to have.

So far, my understanding has been that the requester is supposed to
receive a 4xx or 5xx error message/code when the server does not want to
or can not serve the request.

For instances when the web server gives a wrong answer to a request it
does not serve --- like sending the index page used with requests for a
different domain instead of indicating an error --- someone has
misconfigured the server, or there is a bug in the server.  Neither has
anything to do with the sender of the request, other than that they
receive a wrong answer.  It´s not the fault of the sender of the request
when the web server sends the wrong answer.


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overview of fonts in Fedora

[lee]

Hi,

is there some sort of overview of all the fonts that are included in
Fedora?

There are quite a few, most of them not installed, with unknown
looks. It would be nice to see screenshots to get an idea about what all
these mysterious fonts look like.


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Re: F19: Is this an httpd attack attempt?

[lee]

Tim  writes:

> Allegedly, on or about 05 March 2014, lee sent:
>> Could someone please explain why/how this may be considered as an
>> attack or at least as something bad?
>
> Have a look at the log line that the original poster sent:
>
> 185.4.227.194 - - [03/Mar/2014:07:27:49 -0800] "GET 
> http://24x7-allrequestsallowed.com/?PHPSESSID=1rmsxtj500143TRMUTP_ODZZWA 
> HTTP/1.1" 200 5264 "-" "-"
>
> look above here, where the carats are at the end of these hyphens 
> -^^^
>
> That "200" means a successful result, rather than a failure.  In other
> words, what they tried to do, they did.

Yes --- I was wondering if perhaps some sort of error page might have
been served.

>> Someone requesting an URL from a web server that doesn´t serve this
>> URL --- or doesn´t serve the specified domain at all --- could be
>> caused by incorrect responses from name servers, couldn´t it?
>
> Not, like that.  Say, for example, I try to get this page from a
> website:  www.example.com/pages/test.html  The browser will connect to
> example.com (presuming that DNS is working), and then it will try to
> GET /pages/test.html.  The domain name will not be in the GET request.
>
> e.g. That log line would have looked like:
>
> 185.4.227.194 - - [03/Mar/2014:07:27:49 -0800] "GET 
> /?PHPSESSID=1rmsxtj500143TRMUTP_ODZZWA HTTP/1.1" 200 5264 "-" "-"
>
> As a more normal use of a webserver.

I see what you mean, then entries in my log file look like that.

As Tom Rivers pointed out in his posts, his tests have shown that
someone might have used the web server as a proxy.  Now there is
probably no way to determine whether what caused this log entry was
actually an attack or not, or is there?


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Re: Can't install ƒ20

[lee]

"Frode, maillister"  writes:

> The designers/developers have apparently decided to prioritize ease of
> use at the expense of some of the "advanced" features, thinking that
> those who do things differently know how to do it.

They have managed to create an installer for Fedora that cannot be used
to install Fedora.  That´s still an euphemism, yet it is what it comes
down to.


As for the original question:  With the F19 installer, I had to create
the partitions otherwise and then mess around with the installer for
quite a while to tell it which partition to use for what.  It was pretty
awful, though at least possible.

Perhaps you can use the F19 installer and install F19, then upgrade to
F20.


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Re: F19: Is this an httpd attack attempt?

[lee]

Tom Rivers  writes:

> On 3/5/2014 10:45, Tom Rivers wrote:
>> Now that I had successfully simulated the attack signature in the
>> log file of the proxy web server, I logged into the target web
>> server and looked at its access log.  Thankfully I found no log of
>> any activity from my XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX workstation IP.  Not wanting to
>> leave any stone unturned, I did a "tail -f" on the log file of the
>> target web server and performed the same test again.  I got the same
>> results.
>
> Sorry, it's a busy day at work and I wasn't as clear as I should have
> been in this last paragraph.  What I should've said is that there were
> no entries in the log file of the target web server referencing the
> attempted "attack" for either the IP of my workstation or the IP of
> the proxy web server.

Tom, thank you very much for your effort and time investigating and
sharing this!


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Re: Gnome is sometimes blurred

[lee]

antonio  writes:

> Sometimes when I start my laptop (with Intel card) Gnome doesn't start
> as it should, icons are in the wrong position (I mean that the top
> panel is sitting on the right and I get the wheel on the bottom left
> angle of the screen).
> Any idea?? should I file a bug against Gnome??

Did you turn the laptop around?  Some screens can be turned by 90
degrees, and the display is supposed to adjust.  Perhaps your laptop has
this feature, and it´s giving you unexpected results.

Provide a screen shot?


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Re: Most Efficient Network File sharing protocol?

[lee]

Ian Malone  writes:

> On 5 March 2014 13:21, lee  wrote:
>> "Patrick O'Callaghan"  writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:34 AM, lee  wrote:
>>>> As to NFS, I have had bad experiences with it, like network cards
>>>> freezing up and computers being halted because NFS failed for unknown
>>>> reasons.  I never got it to work reliably and would not recommend using
>>>> NFS for anything.
>>>
>>> I've used NFS reliably for over 20 years. I don't claim it's the best

> [...]
> If mounted with the 'hard' option NFS can do that, because a process
> is waiting to close a file. It shouldn't freeze the whole system
> unless part of the system itself is actually on NFS (home directories
> is a common one). But this can be an intentional trade-off, where you

Yes, and IIRC, I tried the option which was supposed not to let things
freeze, with no better results.

BTW, is there something that handles files transfers securely in a
simple way, like rsync or scp, with the ability to mount the remote file
systems like with NFS or samba?


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Re: man command question

[lee]

Joachim Backes  writes:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm running F20 on gnome3 desktop,
> and I see some weird effect in the man command (entered in a gnome
> terminal) if using the "-P" command option:
>
> man -P cat man >/dev/null
>
> should use the cat command as pager. I get the expected effect, but one
> or more additional messages to stderr:
>
> :981: warning [p 7, 5.8i, div `3tbd1,0', 0.0i]: cannot
> adjust line
> :990: warning [p 7, 5.8i, div `3tbd4,0', 0.0i]: cannot
> adjust line
>
>
> Anybody knows what this means? No such message if the gnome terminal is
> wide enough.

It probably means what it says.  You can format man pages with a
variable number of characters per line, hence you might have "(setq
Man-width 75)" in your ~/.emacs to get a reasonably formatted display
rather than one with the lines being too long for comfortable reading.

Now say, you specify zero characters per line, and the software may
suddenly have a hard time adjusting the lines.


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Re: /var/log/messages

[lee]

"Patrick Dupre"  writes:

> Hello,
>
> I have a /var/log/messages file of size: 74197292
> Is it resonable?

That depends on what´s in it.  Under some circumstances, there can be
quite a bit of logging going on.

Logrotate is supposed to deal with it and might not have a chance to
when your computer is turned off at the time logrotate would run.


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Re: /var/log/messages

[lee]

"Patrick Dupre"  writes:

> OK,
>
> I run fine,
> Thus I deleted some big files.
>
> recover some room on the /
> /dev/sdb6                          6192704  5216872    661260  89% /
>
> but then again:
> /dev/sdb6                          6192704  5532276    345856  95% /
>
> I guess that it is the /var which grows up to fast!
>
> I have /usr /tmp and /home on different partitions

It´s probably a good idea to look at the log files to find out what
causes so much data being written to them.

The du utility gives you some information about disk usage, and you can
adjust the configuration of logrotate to get rid of the log files
sooner.  When partitions/disks are more than 50% full, start planning to
extend the storage capacity.

For comparison, /var/log/messages currently goes over six days here and is
344kB in size.


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Re: Fedora 19 problem

[lee]

Roger  writes:

> Hi all.
> Last night Fedora 19 updated 189 files, akmod and kernel among them.
> Now Fedora boot stops, I think because the kernel-devel file is faulty
> and nvidia cannot compile, or maybe partially compiled.
> I have tried reverting to earlier kernels and down loading the devel
> for that but yum reports that everything is up to date and stops.

How did you do that when the system doesn´t even boot?

> I see there's a lot of problems with Fedora 20 so have not tried
> updating that yet.

It´s working great here.  Which problems in particular are you referring
to?

> What's the best way to resolve this please and get Fedora 19 nvidia
> gui working again.

You could make a regression to the nouveau drivers to get a working F19
and update it to F20, then upgrade to the NVIDIA drivers of F20.  F19
will be outdated in a while, anyway.


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Re: Bluetooth mouse won't connect

[lee]

"Patrick O'Callaghan"  writes:

> This is a new install of F20, with all updates applied, using KDE. The
> machine has an Nvidia G630 graphics card and a Bluetooth USB dongle.
>
> Running the default Nouveau video driver, I was able to connect my
> Sondstrom Bluetooth mouse with no trouble. I then installed the Nvidia
> proprietary drivers using akmod, rebooted, and now can't connect to
> the mouse. I get the KDE connection dialogue, the mouse appears as a
> device, I click on Connect and nothing happens.

The mouse appears to be working: Otherwise you couldn´t "click on
Connect".

> Turning the mouse off and on makes no difference, nor does pressing
> the mouse's connection button.
>
> I'm assuming this has something to do with the Nvidia driver, but of
> course that could be completely wrong. Any hints would be appreciated.

The batteries are empty?  Have you tried new ones?

Have you verified that the bluetooth dongle is otherwise working?  Are
there any log file entries, or entries in relevant configuration files,
related to the problem?

You could get a nice trackball and connect it via PS/2.


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Re: Bluetooth mouse won't connect

[lee]

Patrick O'Callaghan  writes:

> On Sat, 2014-03-08 at 14:42 +0100, lee wrote:
>> "Patrick O'Callaghan"  writes:
>> 
>> > This is a new install of F20, with all updates applied, using KDE. The
>> > machine has an Nvidia G630 graphics card and a Bluetooth USB dongle.
>> >
>> > Running the default Nouveau video driver, I was able to connect my
>> > Sondstrom Bluetooth mouse with no trouble. I then installed the Nvidia
>> > proprietary drivers using akmod, rebooted, and now can't connect to
>> > the mouse.
> [...]
>
> They are new. The mouse works with a different Fedora 20 system (laptop
> with built-in Bluetooth) and also worked on this system until I
> installed the Nvidia driver.

Have you compared the log files of the two?  Does the mouse work with
the USB dongle on the laptop?

Is it possible that the graphics card now uses different frequencies
that interfere with the dongle?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> Because it grew rather long, I think it works best as a web article, which
> you can find on Fedora Magazine at .


> Because really, even though many people think the base OS is now
> boring, it’s far from done, and there is a lot of innovation going on
> at that level as well.

What do you consider as "base OS"?

And I don`t think it`s boring.  I think it`s bad that

+ you find more and more stuff running

+ that it`s difficult to find out what this or that process does which
  wasn`t there before the last update/upgrade

+ that a lot of what is running is something you never need and

+ that it is usually difficult to impossible to get rid of stuff you
  don`t need.


And on top of that, what is the Fedora-way of replacing gnome --- which
I find totally useless --- with fvwm, which perfectly does what I want?
It`s only one example, and you can figure out how to do it.  But the
point with this is that Fedora lacks flexibility.  You get what you get
and then have to go through a lengthy process of getting rid of stuff
and of somehow getting to work what you need, like fvwm.

On a side note: The installer sucks, just try to do one of the most
basic and important things with it: Partitioning.  And when you managed
that, you can`t start with a minimal install and install just what you
need.

> I was at a large cloud conference a while ago, and almost nobody was
> using Fedora, and so I asked people why they chose the distribution
> they are building their stuff on, and why they didn’t choose
> Fedora. Almost universally, the response wasn’t “What I am using is
> great!” — it was “Oh, I don’t care. I just picked this, and that’s
> what I’m using and it’s fine.”

I`m not one of these people.  Thinking like that, they don`t need a
Linux distribution; they can as well use Windoze or Macos.

> Even if there really are a lot of interesting things going on, people
> who are trying to actually do things with the distribution don’t
> attach much importance to them.

Not paying attention to the soft- and hardware that is the basis of what
you`re actually doing is a recipe for failure, and for making things
difficult on yourself.

One thing Fedora shines with (so far) is reliability, and reliability is
one of the requirements I have.  I have been using Debian for almost
twenty years until they messed up badly with their brokenarch.  Doing
that put Debian out of the question once and for all because they failed
that requirement miserably beyond believe.

Please do not make the same mistake with Fedora.  Switching to another
distribution is a painful process.


I`m saying that Fedora shines with reliability because I have not had a
single crash or freeze since I switched to Fedora over a year ago.  And
I`m saying "so far" because it`s only a bit over a year now since I
switched.  And twenty years is a long time.  I`d be happy to use Fedora
for the next twenty years.  Will Fedora be up to that kind of challenge?

But I find the reliability I`ve seen so far with Fedora very exciting
and I am very thankful for it.  It is a great accomplishment of Fedora.

So Fedora works.  I had to make a pick when I kicked Debian out, and
since someone had told me about Fedora, I looked at the web pages and
decided to try it.  It has it`s disadvantages and quirks and stuff I
really don`t like, but it works.

Fedora is great.  I put it on the same hardware I had Debian on and was
immediately impressed that things are running a lot faster than they
used to.  I was really pissed when the upgrade from F17 to F18 failed
--- or seemed to fail because there was no indication of any progress
during the application of SELinux policy rules, which lead me to press
the reset button after an hour or two --- but it was possible to repair
the damage.  And repairing the damage was less painful than switching to
another distribution.

So yes, Fedora is great, and I`m impressed, and I have to come to like
it.  I know why I`m using it, and you could even say "I just picked this
and it`s fine".

But I picked it after good consideration, and the consideration does not
stop at some point.  And I do care: If it should become not upgradeable
or unbearably unreliable at some point, I`ll kick it out just like
Debian.  I don`t need a recipe for failure, I need my computer to work.

> Also: the base OS has developed to the point where it has become
> uninteresting.

Perhaps not: It is possible that the expectations have
changed.

Ten years ago people were probably much more willing to accept that
their soft- or hardware doesn`t work and that their computer crashes or
freezes every now and then than they are willing to accept this
nowadays.  Some people still don`t care.

Look at different distributions and you may find that they are all using
more or less the same software.  It doesn`t matter whether I use
distribution X or Z or V, they all come, for example, with emacs, and if
not, I`ll just compile it my

Re: no default mta [was Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)]

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 10:55:56AM -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
>> Unlike others, however, I find the new system logging and analysis tools
>> cumbersome and painful to use. Having a program send an email to me if
>> it encounters issues is FAR superior to me having to plow through the
>> logs to see if it ran correctly or not.
>
> We definitely need better alerting and monitoring, mail-based or otherwise. 
> Help wanted. :)

Emails are just fine for this.  I don`t want or need some place else I
need to look at, and I don`t want to be bothered by notifications that
pop up somewhere.

Other than that, yes, some notification thing that actually works would
be nice for instances when you need it.  I had to write my own --- it`s
using libsx, for which unfortunately no Fedora package exists ...  It
should be easy to make it suitable for things otherwise sent by email.

It would seem like effort wasted on replacing something that works
great.  How about starting an MTA only on demand?  Debian had/has that
approach.


BTW, what`s the Fedora way of starting eximstats?  I haven`t really
looked into it yet, it would have to be coordinated with logrotate.  I
want that report --- by email, of course :)


FWIW:


// sxnotify.c
// This software is licensed under the GPL.
// Author: l...@yun.yagibdah.de, 2013-07-21
//
// compile with something like:
// gcc -lsx -lXpm -lXaw -lXt -lX11 -O2 -Wall -fomit-frame-pointer 
-finline-functions -march=native bwstat.c -o bwstat
//
// gcc -lsx -lXpm -lXaw -lXt -lX11 -march=native -O3 -finline-functions 
-ffast-math -fno-math-errno -funsafe-math-optimizations -ffinite-math-only 
-fno-signed-zeros -fsingle-precision-constant -fcx-limited-range -funroll-loops 
-ftracer -fvariable-expansion-in-unroller -freorder-blocks-and-partition 
-flto=4 -fprofile-generate
// That should compile without warnings.  Now run:
//


#include 
#include 
#include 

#include 


void xx(void *data)
{
exit(0);
}


int main(int argc, char *argv[] ) {

if( !OpenDisplay(argc, argv) ) {
puts("cannot open display");
exit(1);
}

if(argc != 2) {
puts("usage: sxnotify message");
exit(1);
}

MakeLabel(argv[1]);
ShowDisplay();
int foo;
AddTimeOut(5000, xx, (void *)(&foo));
MainLoop();
exit(0);
}

I took libsx from the source package Debian has.  It doesn`t compile
all the examples, but you can get the lib itself.  I wish there was a
Fedora package for it ...


Instead of making a label, you can make an editor, which would be better
for long messages --- but then, I have emacs running anyway and would
just start an emacsclient.  So you`d be looking for something that
perhaps queues the messages and waits until something to display them is
running.

So why not use emails?  Like I said, without a replacement for an MTA,
you do not have a functional system ...


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Joe Zeff  writes:

> to say, designed for "Windows refugees."  Fedora, OTOH, is a much more
> geeky distro designed as a test bed for new ideas, programs and
> technologies that's not for people who don't like to tinker with
> things or who aren't willing to accept that not everything in their
> distro is really ready for prime time.

Hm, what do you really need to tinker with in Fedora (when you let gnome
aside which I find now even more unusable than it used to be, and when
you don`t mention the installer (with which you can`t tinker anyway))?
It`s just working fine (if you get it installed).

And people who don`t want to tinker might just tell the installer to do
whatever it wants, and that probably works, too: Lots of people care
about their existing data by pretending that it doesn`t exist and/or not
knowing that it does or where it does exist, and if in doubt, they`ll
say it`s not worth keeping anyway.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Liam Proven  writes:

> On 21 March 2014 23:25, Chris Murphy  wrote:
>> Ahh, so when hyperbole simply isn't going far enough we actually
>> have to descend into the obviously ridiculous, as in, worthy of
>> ridicule. My house plant can do a Fedora install with this
>> installer. That you keep failing to get any kind of successful
>> installation is a bit amusing. Maybe you need more water?
>
>
> Firstly, your mocking hectoring tone is very unhelpful, annoying and
> is not a productive way to engage.

+1

> The F20 installer was completely unable to understand it and allow me
> to install a complete system. Assigned some 250GiB of space, it said
> that it needed 6.5GB and there wasn't enough room.

Yeah I had the same thing coming up with the F19 installer.  There was
plenty of room and it said there isn`t and refused to use the partitions
that were there.  And try to make it use existing partitions
... "disaster" is a good word to describe it.

> In trying to install, it erased one of the spare-root partitions and
> was unable to recreate it in the available empty space.

That`s why I`d have to unplug all disks except the system disks I`d
install on --- which is a PITA.  And it`s not even possible when you
have a laptop and are forced to install on the same disks the data is
on.

> It *is* broken and it *is* unusable. "Well it works for me" is *not*
> an adequate reply.

+1

Let`s say you install to a software RAID-1 --- which is minimum
requirement for anything to put data on --- made from two disks, with
encrypted partitions (as usual /, /usr, /home, /tmp, /var, /usr/local,
and a swap partition).  You want to have these partitions in a
particular order on the disks, i. e. swap at the beginning because
chances are it`s faster, then /usr, /var, /tmp, /usr/local and /home, in
that order.

That`s nothing complicated, either, and I don`t think that`s possible
with Fedoras installer.  Or is it?  And if it is, how long does it take
to do the partitioning?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 04:19:05PM +0100, lee wrote:
>> > Because really, even though many people think the base OS is now
>> > boring, it’s far from done, and there is a lot of innovation going on
>> > at that level as well.
>> What do you consider as "base OS"?
>
> It's somewhat nebulous, but, as a general working definition, the system
> stuff below the applications layer. (Not in the OSI sense.)

Are there significant differences in that with different Linux
distributions?

>> And on top of that, what is the Fedora-way of replacing gnome --- which
>> I find totally useless --- with fvwm, which perfectly does what I want?
>
> It sounds like you want to do a minimal install and then add up from that.

Yes, that`s what I always did with Debian.

> I think you will benefit from this effort in that the minimal install will
> be better defined and curated.

That would be nice --- I wouldn`t even have thought that there is one if
I hadn`t read on this list that there is one, somewhere.  I still don`t
know how I would start with a minimal install, though.

When you get the installer and boot it, you get a working system.
That`s a good way to go because otherwise you need a second computer
around when installing to look up things.  But where is the minimal
install, and what when you don`t get a GUI?

>> It`s only one example, and you can figure out how to do it.  But the
>> point with this is that Fedora lacks flexibility.  You get what you get
>> and then have to go through a lengthy process of getting rid of stuff
>> and of somehow getting to work what you need, like fvwm.
>
> Sure, I would agree that this isn't a strong suit, particularly with the
> all-or-nothing way RPM dependencies currently work.

Yes, that is one of the things I don`t like.  It forces you to install
stuff you never need.

> But on the other hand, I'm not sold on it being a huge problem. If you
> know what you are doing, it's not that big of a burden, and I'm pretty
> sure that the intersection of people who want this and people for whom
> it is easy with Fedora as it stands is quite large.

Well, look around at what ppl say about different distributions like you
would in order to decide which one to use.  What you find out is
primarily what "desktop environment" and, in a side note, what kind of
package management they are using.

I still have no use for what`s called a "desktop environment".  They
slow down my computer with all kinds of stuff I don`t need and, more
importantly, get majorly into my way.  Try out several, and you find
that when you get set up in one, you have to start over to get what you
need when you try out another one.  Not even the keyboard is working
right because your ~/.Xmodmap is being ignored.

Yet what "desktop environment" is the default seems to have become the
most important feature of a Linux distribution.  Otherwise it might be
mentioned in a side note, if at all, and important things would be
pointed out instead.

Having choices is one of the most important things.  You still have them
with Fedora --- otherwise I wouldn`t be using it.  That kinda makes it
relevant how easy or difficult it is to get what you want.

The point is that you need to know what you`re doing, i. e. how to get
the choices.  Why not make it easy for people to choose?

>> On a side note: The installer sucks, just try to do one of the most
>> basic and important things with it: Partitioning. 
>
> Saying something "sucks" isn't very helpful. Not only is it needlessly
> negative, it is intangible. Name a real problem and we can talk about it.

There have been a few threads about it on this list.  The major problem
is partitioning.

The last time I used the installer, it was the one F19 comes with.  It
was impossible to get the partitioning I wanted, so I had to partition
otherwise.  Then it was nearly impossible to make the installer actually
use the partitions the way I wanted.  And since the buttons the
installer uses are weird and misleading, you never really know what
you`re doing.  I had to try over and over again to figure out how to
somehow make it use the existing partitions.  If I had used it on a
computer that had data on the disks I wanted to keep, I`d have had to
physically unplug them to make sure the data doesn`t get lost --- and
that isn`t always possible.

So some simple partitioning that would be done with the Debian installer
within ten minutes took three hours.  The Fedora installer does what it
want`s, not what the user wants, and it leaves the user in the dark
about what is actually going to happen.

On top of that, it doesn`t offer any choices.  You cannot pick any
package at all.

Take a look at the Debian installer.  I never used their graphical one
--- an installer shouldn

Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I,?“Why?”)

[lee]

"Powell, Michael"  writes:

> Absolute ease of use is what they're going for and the easiest way to
> achieve that is to reduce the amount of information a user has to
> process.

Then they need to turn around at once!  Leaving users in the dark about
what`s going on makes things more difficult for them.  Taking away
choices limits the use of the software to the point where it eventually
becomes unusable.

Good design, clarity, good documentation and letting the user know what
choices there are are required when you want to achieve ease of use.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Ed Greshko  writes:

> 4.  Booted into Ubuntu and used parted to create dummy unused partitions.
> 5.  Then did the F20 installation and selected dummy partitions for 
> reclamation and the installation completed.

Creating the partitions otherwise does make a difference.  With the F19
installer, it was impossible to get the partitioning I needed.  Once I
had them created otherwise, it still was a PITA to get the installer to
use them the way I wanted.


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Re: minimal install [was Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)]

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 05:38:48PM +0100, lee wrote:
>> >> What do you consider as "base OS"?
>> > It's somewhat nebulous, but, as a general working definition, the system
>> > stuff below the applications layer. (Not in the OSI sense.)
>> Are there significant differences in that with different Linux
>> distributions?
>
> It depends on what you mean by "significant". From some points of view, it's
> very, very different -- different init systems (although that seems to be
> slowly converging on systmed), different packaging, different logging
> conventions. Or maybe you care that there are different library and even
> kernel versions. But from other points of view, that's all implementation
> details.

I`d say that there aren`t any significant differences then: It doesn`t
matter for a particular software which package management is used,
whether there are different logging conventions or how the software is
started.  When your MTA or library or kernel has a bug, it has the bug
regardless, unless the makers of the distribution perhaps modify or fix
things so that they have a distribution-specific version.  Different
versions do matter, though that averages out because any version can
have a problem:  One distribution may happen to skip a particular
version which is buggy while another distribution has it.  Five versions
later it can be the other way round.

The difference is for the user who likes one package management system
better than another, or prefers one init system over the other.

It leads to an interesting question, though: How come that one
distribution works better than another despite there is no significant
difference in the software they are using?

>> >> And on top of that, what is the Fedora-way of replacing gnome --- which
>> >> I find totally useless --- with fvwm, which perfectly does what I want?
>> > It sounds like you want to do a minimal install and then add up from that.
>> Yes, that`s what I always did with Debian.
>
> You can do that on Fedora, although minimal isn't quite as small.

Hm, I never noticed a choice like that ...  "Minimal" isn`t about
"small" in this case, it`s about not installing what I don`t need.


BTW: You were saying an MTA has been removed from the default
installation because it cannot do anything useful, especially not in an
office environment, unless appropriately configured, and that when you
configure it, it doesn`t make a difference when you need to install it
first.

The same goes for pulseaudio.  It doesn`t do anything useful, especially
not in an office environment where soundcards are usually not used, and
not at all when you don`t want to use a soundcard.  In case it could
actually do something useful for you, you have to configure it to do so,
and in that case, it doesn`t make a difference when you need to install
it first.  So why is it not only installed by default but impossible to
get rid of it without removing gdm and some other packages?

I don`t need pulseaudio.  Alsa handles things anyway and does it just
fine without.  All that pulseaudio does is that it adds an obsolete
layer and wastes CPU time in doing so.  I might use gdm in case I want
to start a gnome session, though.

And when I log in a second user, last time I checked the second user
doesn`t have any sound.  I can`t get it to do DRC, either.  So why is
pulseaudio installed?  Unlike an MTA, it serves no purpose at all.

>> > I think you will benefit from this effort in that the minimal install will
>> > be better defined and curated.
>> That would be nice --- I wouldn`t even have thought that there is one if
>> I hadn`t read on this list that there is one, somewhere.  I still don`t
>> know how I would start with a minimal install, though.
>
> In the GUI installer, under software selection, scroll to the bottom and
> pick "Minimal Install".

It should ask me what I want to install ...  Debian does it right, their
installer has many steps, and you can even go back and re-do one, or do
some in a different order.  One of the steps is to pick what you want to
install.

> In kickstart, close-to-minimal is the default, and you can use "%packages
> --nocore" if you're really serious.

I don`t even know what kickstart is ...

> You can use the installer in text mode. You can also use it in completely
> scripted mode.

That`s cool :)  How do you do that?

>> > On the specific you do give, I'm pretty confident in saying that you're
>> > actually wrong.
>> Unless the installer majorly changed from F19 to F20, I`m not wrong.
>> > Storage is hard, and the new anaconda contains the most
>> > sophisticated and powerful GUI partitioning tool ever made.
>> Serious

Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Timothy Murphy  writes:

> One of the weaknesses of Fedora, in my view,
> is the apparent lack of interest in what users actually want or need.

+1

> For example, what proportion of users choose KDE or Gnome,
> or some other Desktop Environment?
> Does anybody know?
> Suppose it turned out that far more use KDE than Gnome.
> Would that not suggest that KDE should be made the default?

I`d rather see choices.  There still can be a default, and it doesn`t
matter what it is: Just give the user choices when installing and
afterwards.  One user might want to install gnome and kde and xfce and
whatever else there is to try them out.  Another one may already know
that they want gnome.  I already know that I don`t want a graphical
login and fvwm.  Where is that choice?  Why do we have to somehow figure
out how to get what we want only after the install, when it`s kinda too
late?

Just think of all the time and resources wasted with downloading things
we don`t need ...

> Again, how many are installing on a machine that is already
> partitioned? Suppose (my guess) it is something like 90%. Would it not
> be more rational in that case to assume as default that users would
> prefer to use that partitioning?

No.

The capacity required for /usr has increased over time.  Same goes for /
or /boot.  Some people may want to keep an existing system and need an
option in the installer to shrink some partitions to make room.  Some
people may install on a (new) computer they were unable to get without
something pre-installed, and they don`t like whatever partitioning was
used for that.  Others may have upgraded their hardware and have added a
few disks, and now they want to use the additional capacity and need to
move their /home partition, and this kind of upgrade and change may be
the reason that they think they can as well re-install.  Others plugged
in a(n old) disk they had sitting around because they want to use it to
try out Fedora, and the partitioning of that disk has been made a long
time ago for, let`s say, Debian.

You can as well --- or even more reasonably --- assume that it is most
unlikely that someone wants to use an existing partitioning as the
default when installing.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Bill Oliver  writes:

> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>
>> Tim wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>> But all this is pure speculation.
>> One of the weaknesses of Fedora, in my view,
>> is the apparent lack of interest in what users actually want or need.
>>
>>[snip]
>
>
> I don't think it's a total lack of interest.  I think that it's an
> issue of prioritization.  From what I've read, the purpose of Fedora
> is to use the open source community to examine and debug things for
> potential inclusion in the Red Hat Enterprise products.

The mission statement says otherwise.

> Accordingly, it is our "job" to get stuck with stuff we don't like and
> things that are not quite ready for prime time.

Wouldn`t it be more efficient to listen to what users want than it is to
do lots of work to throw things in to see whether the users like them or
not?

> My impression is that Red Hat is *very* interested in what we put in
> bugzilla, and *is* interested in usability and preference issues from
> us -- but that the debugging part is first, usability second, and
> preference third in the priority list.

Bug reports are surely important, and the ones I made have been attended
to.  They are bug reports, though, i. e. you can say things like "I
wanted to do this, so I tried to do that, and instead of getting X, the
program crashed."  That is a limit.

Some things you can only learn from discussions like this or from
actually asking the users, and bug reports aren`t suited for that.

A reason for perceiving the apparent lack of interest may be that the
makers of Fedora don`t appear to be present here.  It is here where
people ask questions, including usability issues, and come up with ideas
and can say what they would like to see.

> Using Fedora is like getting a big box of presents every six months
> sent to me by a rather absent-minded elderly aunt, who can't quite
> remember my tastes.  The good part is that it is a big box full of
> neat stuff.  The bad part is that some of it got broken in the mail
> and some of it I just don't care for.  But I throw the stuff I don't
> like away and enjoy playing with the stuff I like.

That`s a good analogy :)  Is it supposed to be like this?

Let`s see: Your aunt is running a bug tracking system to keep track of
what got broken in the mail so she can resend what got broken, plus a
mailing list so their grandsons and granddaughters can chat about what
they got this time to figure out whether it is actually broken or not.

If she had known that she didn`t need to throw in this or that, wouldn`t
that be easier for everyone?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Ian Malone  writes:

> On 21 March 2014 15:19, lee  wrote:
>> One thing Fedora shines with (so far) is reliability, and reliability is
>> one of the requirements I have.  I have been using Debian for almost
>> twenty years until they messed up badly with their brokenarch.  Doing
>> that put Debian out of the question once and for all because they failed
>> that requirement miserably beyond believe.
>>
>> Please do not make the same mistake with Fedora.  Switching to another
>> distribution is a painful process.
>>
>
> I'm kind of interested to know what your use case is that makes
> switching distros more painful than fixing a broken install. The only
> guess I can make is multiple systems.

That`s the wrong guess.  One thing is the installation itself during
which I need to keep my data save.  That means I have to unplug all
disks put the two I`m installing on.  Then my internet connection is
slow, and it`s a lot to download.  Then I have to set up everything I
have working now again.  Backing up configuration files helps, yet every
distribution has their own way of doing things, so I there is plenty to
figure out. Then I need to get rid of stuff that gets installed which I
don`t need or want to have.  Over time, I have to install things I need
again, which involves figuring out which packages might provide
it. Depending on which distribution it is, I have to learn how to use a
different package management, and I have to find out how something works
when it`s different from how it was before, which I do not know to begin
with and also need to figure out first.  Configuration files are stored
at different places with different distributions, some things are
configured very differently, and some packages I need may not be
available.

When switching distributions, it takes at least half a year to get back
to where I was before.

To give you a silly example: When I was using Debian, I had eximstats
running, coordinated with logrotate.  In over a year I haven`t figured
out yet how to do that with Fedora.  It`s not really important, and it
seemed not even to be available, and I had more important things to
do. Only recently I happened to find that it`s suddenly installed, so
how do you set it up?

Another example: I need squid 2.7 because I need a feature that still
hasn`t been ported to the current version.  Squid 2.7 is not in Fedora,
and it was difficult to get it to work because I had to learn how to
write some startup file for systemd and to find a way to somehow trick
unknown things Fedora has which prevented squid from being able to have
a log file and even kept deleting directories I made.  Squid 2.7 is in
Debian, so you simply install it, adjust the configuration file and
you`re done.

And more examples:  When I log in as another user, that other user has
no sound.  I`ve been asking on this list quite a while ago and didn`t
get an answer.  Any idea how to fix that?  It never was a problem with
Debian.

Debian didn`t use pulseaudio, so the sound worked just fine.  Until F19,
pulseaudio used to randomly crash, which disabled all sound.  It takes
time to figure out things like that and that you have to restart
pulseaudio to get the sound back.

The package for fvwm in Debian was ancient, so I had a self-compiled
version.  That is no longer needed with Fedora: just another detail that
needed to be looked into.  Xterm, which worked fine with Debian, would
blank out, so I couldn`t use it for quite a while: just another detail.

Where is xcolorsel?  I sometimes need that, and I still haven`t found a
replacement or a way to get it with Fedora.

Where is cinelerra?  I wanted to learn how to use it, but I can`t get it
with Fedora :(

It`s hundreds of little details that need to be looked into, and many
things you can`t just do as you used to.  They are either done
differently, or it`s something you set up so long ago that you forgot
how you did it --- or something just doesn`t work anymore or is not
available.

So switching distributions is a major PITA.  It`s sure fun to try out
different things and learn new stuff --- if that is what you want to
do. I`m doing it, and it`s fun, but I need my stuff working in the first
place and not to get it in the way of what I want to do.

Even after over a year, I don`t have everything back I had with Debian.
Fedora has only maybe half the packages Debian has.

Perhaps Feodra.next can catch up in that regard?

>> I have always wondered how people manage to create packages, for Debian
> [...]
>> find out how to do that and that`s where it ends:  It`s just too
>> difficult.
>>
>> Instead, you put your software on github.
>>
>
> If you see no value in packaging I'm surprised you aren't using a
> roll-your-own distro instead. It sounds like that would be a much
> better match for your requirements of control over everything on the
> machin

Is it irrelevant what users of FOSS think? (Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?"))

[lee]

Tom Horsley  writes:

> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:35:20 +0100
> lee wrote:
>
>> > One of the weaknesses of Fedora, in my view,
>> > is the apparent lack of interest in what users actually want or need.  
>> 
>> +1
>
> The distro that actually seems to care (at the moment) about
> users is Linux Mint

They use Debian packages, don`t they?  That is something I wanted to get
away from.

> I use Fedora primarily because it is the best distro
> to use as an early warning system to find out what
> nonsense will land in RHEL in the future

And otherwise you`d be using Mint?


I`m somewhat surprised that the feeling of apparent desinterest of the
makers of Fedora in what its users think seems kinda widespread under
its users.  Perhaps it`s a wrong impression; if not, it may be something
for Fedora.next to address.

Many users probably don`t care as long as Fedora works for them --- and
when it doesn`t anymore, they just pick something else?

That surely wouldn`t bring Fedora anywhere near a position in which it
should contemplate leading the advancement of FOSS ... unless what users
of FOSS think is indeed irrelevant.


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Re: Booting with external HD missing - WAS:Booting into emergency mode - Help! -SOLVED

[lee]

Arthur Dent  writes:

> On Sun, 2014-03-23 at 16:20 +0100, Patrick Laimbock wrote:
>> On 23-03-14 16:08, Arthur Dent wrote:
>> [snip]
>> > Sorry for the noise. I guess I should open another thread, but does
>> > anyone know how to auto-mount an external HD ONLY if it's present?
>> 
>> Have a look at the 'nofail' option (see man fstab). Or add the 'noauto' 
>> option to the fstab entry for that HD and try to mount the HD in 
>> /etc/rc.local only if it's present.
>
> Thanks - I tried the nofail option. This is the line I have now:
> UUID=BCD0A565D0A5269C  /mnt/Backup ntfs-3g 
> nofail,auto,noatime,rw, 0 0
> but trying a mount -a with the drive NOT present gives me:
> mount: /mnt/Backup: mount failed: Invalid argument
> (I haven't tried rebooting yet).
>
> Any ideas?

One of the arguments is missing and thus considered as invalid?

You might make a bug report because this error message is misleading.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Tom Horsley  writes:

> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:15:03 +0100
> lee wrote:
>
>> Think of fvwm: You may think it`s a "minimalistic" window manager.  It
>> is not, it`s actually the most powerful and most versatile WM I have
>> ever seen, and it`s easy to configure to do exactly what you want.
>
> No only that, but it works the same way all the time as long as you
> keep your same .fvwmrc files. Imagine that: You don't have to re-learn
> the user interface on every release.

Not only that, you only need to learn once how to set it up the way you
want it.

Now someone tell me how I get virtual desktops with gnome or kde to
which I can switch by just moving the mouse pointer over the edge of the
screen?  How do I get a pager as I have with fvwm with gnome or kde?
Where is the configuration file for defining my key bindings, menues,
window decorations ...?

I once tried a window manager that would show some sort of cubes when
you wanted to switch desktops.  It somehow required a huge amount of
resources to do that.  People were really excited about it.  I found
that it looks nice and totally gets into the way because I`d be looking
at those stupid cubes when I wanted to switch desktops and they won`t
really let me and were only one dimensional (i. e. you could turn them
left and right but not up and down or move several around on your screen
to pick a desktop from one of them) and served no purpose.  I forgot how
it was called ... compitz maybe?

With fvwm, I just move the mouse pointer over or press AltGr and an
arrow key, and I`m on the next desktop without any delays or something
getting into my way.  It even does a better job with tiling than i3
does: It just does it, without having you try to figure out how to get
your windows arranged and without the confusing containers which never
really do what you want, and I can have sticky floating windows which
you can`t have with i3 ...

Can gnome or kde do tiling?  With sticky floating windows?  I have that
on one of the virtual desktops for two seamonkey windows; almost
everything else is full screen.

Try full screen with gnome.  You can`t, you have to move and resize your
windows all the time and move them off half off-screen and they are
still in the way.  I hate that.  How can all these fancy "desktop
environments" be so incredibly far behind (a twenty year old window
manager)?


How did that go?  Fedora wants to lead the advancement of FOSS.  Then
why isn`t fvwm the default window manager?  It`s the most advanced one
you can get.  It`s perfect for Fedora.next.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Bill Oliver  writes:

> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014, lee wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>> If she had known that she didn`t need to throw in this or that, wouldn`t
>> that be easier for everyone?
>>
>>
>
> Not necessarily.  Sometimes neither that absent-minded aunt nor the
> avaricious nephew know what is most pleasing until it's taken out and
> played with.

That can be an important thing to do.  It requires listening to the
users and informing and preparing them beforehand, and you have to have
something available to fall back to, or a fix, in case the new toy
doesn`t work out.  If you leave them suddenly stranded like Debian did,
they will leave you behind.

> Much of what we consider very important today was considered stupid
> when it first came out.

Like?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I,?“Why?”)

[lee]

"Powell, Michael"  writes:

>> Then they need to turn around at once!  Leaving users in the dark about
>> what`s going on makes things more difficult for them.  Taking away choices
>> limits the use of the software to the point where it eventually becomes
>> unusable.
>> 
>> Good design, clarity, good documentation and letting the user know what
>> choices there are are required when you want to achieve ease of use.
>
> I don't think the installer is as bad as most people on this list are
> complaining about; it's certainly not leaving any users in the dark.

It doesn`t give you choices.  It leaves you in the dark about that it is
somehow possible to use an non-gui installer and to do a minimal
install.  It leaves you in the dark about what exactly happens when you
do the partitioning and with trying to figure out how get the
partitioning you want.

Partitioning took me about three hours with the installer of F19, with a
very simple setup and not even data to preserve and neither RAID, nor
encryption, and it was only possible after I created the partitions
outside the installer.  There was no way to do it with the installer, it
kept saying there isn`t enough room despite there was plenty, and it did
what it wanted rather than what I wanted.

It was seriously awful.  It would have taken 10--15 minutes with the
Debian installer.

> A large majority of the information from the older installer is still
> there, it's just up to the user to seek it out.

I don`t know anything about "the older installer" or how to seek out
information about it; I didn`t even know that there is an "older
installer".  The first Fedora installer I used was the one with F17.

> In essence the installer went from a hardcore presentational format to
> a more laid back format - a shift every OS has consciously made in the
> last decade.

I don`t know what you mean.  The Debian installer got more options and
some more clarity which was an improvement.  Otherwise it didn`t change,
you just do country and keyboard setup --- which is missing in Fedoras
installer, there was no way to tell it that I have a German keyboard ---
network setup if you don`t use DHCP, partitioning, a bit of package
selection if you want to, and then it installs.

It`s easy and straightforward as it used to be for the last twenty
years, and I never had trouble using it.  Why suddenly make installing
such a PITA like Fedoras installer does?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Joe Zeff  writes:

> On 03/23/2014 12:08 PM, lee wrote:
>> compitz maybe?
>
> Close: compiz.  I use it with Xfce because I enjoy watching the eye
> candy.

There`s nothing wrong with it when you like the eye candy.  It`s good to
have choices :)

> And, I use it (also with Xfce) on my laptop so that I can show
> all of the "gosh wow" effects to people who only know Windows.  Then,
> I tell them that the laptop came with Vista and has never had a
> hardware upgrade and ask, "If Linux can do this, why can't Windows?"
> I've never yet gotten an answer.

Well, yes, I don`t understand either why there isn`t a useable WM for
it.  I only touch it when I get payed for it, so it doesn`t really
matter when three quarters of the time is wasted with moving windows
around and half the screen space is covered by their decorations.

Macs are even worse, though I never looked if there might be a
replacement for their WM.  Perhaps you can have fvwm on a Mac?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Liam Proven  writes:

> On 22 March 2014 17:23, lee  wrote:
>> Let`s say you install to a software RAID-1 --- which is minimum
>> requirement for anything to put data on --- made from two disks, with
>> encrypted partitions (as usual /, /usr, /home, /tmp, /var, /usr/local,
>> and a swap partition).  You want to have these partitions in a
>> particular order on the disks, i. e. swap at the beginning because
>> chances are it`s faster, then /usr, /var, /tmp, /usr/local and /home, in
>> that order.
>>
>> That`s nothing complicated, either, and I don`t think that`s possible
>> with Fedoras installer.  Or is it?  And if it is, how long does it take
>> to do the partitioning?
>
> [Blinks]
>
> Wow. Now, y'see, that's something I'd consider wildly exotic and
> weird.

There`s nothing weird or exotic about it.  I`ve always had /usr on its
own partition until the F17 installer refused that, which it shouldn`t
have.

RAID isn`t exotic, either.  Disks do fail, the only question is when,
and I neither want to lose data, nor the hassle.

Installing on a laptop requires encrypted partitions.  They can be
stolen too easily.

> I never separate out /tmp or /var or /usr/local - I only ever use /
> and /home basically.

I always use separate partitions.  It has lots of advantages.

> I might split off /var on a server but I'd need a remarkably
> persuasive use case, and on servers, I use extra-stable distros
> without GUIs, not something like Fedora.

/var can get full, and it`s written to, same goes for /tmp.  How do you
mount /usr read-only?  Especially on a server, it`s a good idea to mount
everything read-only that you can.  When you have several disks, you can
do your partitioning in such a way that you get better performance.
Especially when you have a server, you may need a (pretty much) granted
capacity on /var or /tmp to make sure it will continue to operate ---
without separate partitions, your users may fill up the disks ...

Nowadays you may have SSDs which supposedly last longer when not written
much to but mostly read from, so you might put the partitions that can
be read-only on the SSDs and use magnetic disks for things like /var,
/tmp, /home and swap.

Why wouldn`t you use different partitions?  I can see it (and have done
it) for when the available disk capacity is extremely limited, but
otherwise it doesn`t make any sense and has nothing but disadvantages.

> But this just illustrates the breadth of scenarios a successful
> installer must cope with!

It`s merely a reasonable standard thing to use separate partitions and a
requirement to use RAID, and encrypted partitions for laptops, not
something in any way unusual.  Of course I expect an installer to handle
that as well as using a single, unencrypted partition on a single disk.

And it`s not too difficult.  The installer doesn`t need to do the
partitioning, the user does it.  The installer only needs to give the
user a good tool to do the partitioning the user wants and let them use
it.  Good tools to do partitioning are already available, and the
installer doesn`t need to re-invent the wheel in that.

Perhaps it even shouldn`t.  Why force the user to learn how to use yet
another partitioning tool they even rarely use unless they install
Fedora all the time?  Why not give them a choice, like either cfdisk or
parted, then tell the installer what to do with each partition and let
them switch between these until they are done --- or let the installer
do whatever partitioning it wants, which means that all existing data on
the disks will be deleted.


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Re: Is it irrelevant what users of FOSS think? (Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?"))

[lee]

Joe Zeff  writes:

> On 03/23/2014 12:34 PM, lee wrote:
>> I`m somewhat surprised that the feeling of apparent desinterest of the
>> makers of Fedora in what its users think seems kinda widespread under
>> its users.  Perhaps it`s a wrong impression; if not, it may be something
>> for Fedora.next to address.
>
> Well, Fedora is Gnome-centric, and many of us get the same impression
> about the Gnome devs.

Well, I don`t use gnome, though I understand what you mean.  Still when
makers of software X appear desinterested, that doesn`t mean that makers
of software Y need to or should appear the same way.

Besides, Fedora.next shouldn`t be limited to gnome ...


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Ian Malone  writes:

> On 23 March 2014 19:08, lee  wrote:
>> Tom Horsley  writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:15:03 +0100
>>> lee wrote:
>> Now someone tell me how I get virtual desktops with gnome or kde to
>> which I can switch by just moving the mouse pointer over the edge of the
>> screen?  How do I get a pager as I have with fvwm with gnome or kde?
>> Where is the configuration file for defining my key bindings, menues,
>> window decorations ...?
>>
>
> kde: System Settings | Workspace Behaviour | Screen Edges | Other
> Settings | Switch desktop on edge (Disabled/Only when moving
> windows/Always Enabled).
> Also, System Settings | Workspace Appearance for appearance changes,
> Shortcuts and Gestures for...

That`s way more complicated than EdgeScroll 100 100.  And what about
gnome?  I looked for it and didn`t even find a way to adjust the number
of virtual desktops (or only that), let alone focus follows mouse and
moving over the screen edges.

> Compiz. Which did compositing (and didn't really need massive
> resources so much as graphics hardware support).

People seemed to worry a lot about it.

> Had some nice and genuinely useful features which have not carried
> over to newer WMs which have adopted compositing.

Features like?  It doesn`t have them anymore?

> Though the cubes themselves were pretty cosmetic it was the same
> technology also that also let you view all desktops live when
> switching.

Hm, why would I want to do that?  I have currently 6x6 and they would be
too small to see anything.

> KDE does not do true tiling (Compiz did).

Fvwm doesn`t, either, but I have some entries in the menu that tile some
windows on the current desk.  It works much better than a tiling WM like
i3.

> It does do pining, which is what the pin button at the top left of
> each window does.

You mean sticky floating windows?  I3 is really nice, but it doesn`t do
that, and I sometimes need them ...

> And keyboard shortcuts for desktop changes (thought the default is
> Ctrl+F1-4 rather than ctrl+alt and arrow).

Ah yes, and those didn`t always work because everything had a key
binding and they would conflict with each other ...  That doesn`t happen
with fvwm, they just work.

Many default key bindings are very useless to me because I use my
trackball with my left hand, and I have a German keyboard which has an
AltGr key on the right rather than an Alt key there.  So I need key
bindings I can use with my right hand.

And neither with kde, nor gnome you can even have the scroll bars on the
left side where they belong :(  Kde is at least capable, but when you do
that, the menu entries inevitably move over to the right where they
don`t belong and it gets even more awkward than it already is.  Most X11
apps do it just fine, seamonkey does it --- and I think emacs too, but I
turned them off.

Note for Fedora.next: Please make the scroll bars finally configurable
and provide a way to switch the key bindings so that they can be used
with the right hand ...


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Ian Malone  writes:

> There is no-one on the planet who thinks emacs is minimalistic

I`m not so sure about that.  There are even ppl who have never heard
about emacs, and if they`d see it, they might very well think it is.

> With this and all your other examples you are talking about individual
> pieces of software. But what I mean is you've said you want specific
> things on the system that are not what other people would want and
> things they want are not what you want. On the Venn diagram of what's
> included in an install that makes life difficult.

Each user has preferences.  It is not too difficult to give them
choices.  What I want to have installed is different from what someone
else wants to have installed --- but we don`t get to pick before the
installation is already done.

>> wasn`t anything better.  There still isn`t --- and the LaTeX sources
>> from back then can still be worked with and printed with no problem.  I
>> still have them.
>
> Provided they only use packages that are compatible with the TeX
> distro you've got available.

Even if they don`t, I can still edit them and make adjustments if
necessary.  If anything fails, I can print the sources as they are.  Had
I used some WYSIWYG word processing software instead, I wouldn`t even be
able to read them anymore because this word processing software doesn`t
exist anymore since a long time.

>> I don`t know what would be better than packages.  I wish there were more
>> packages and am only saying it`s too difficult to make them.  Perhaps
>> there`s good reason for it, perhaps it can be made easier.  Someone who
>> knows how to make them might be able to tell.
>>
>
> Ultimately writing a basic spec file is pretty simple, if you can do
> the configure-make-install cycle it should be straightforward enough.

Is there some documentation about how one would make a package that can
be integrated into Fedora?

How would I find out what the package would have to depend on?


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Re: Booting with external HD missing - WAS:Booting into emergency mode - Help! -SOLVED

[lee]

Ahmad Samir  writes:

>>>> > Thanks - I tried the nofail option. This is the line I have now:
>>>> > UUID=BCD0A565D0A5269C  /mnt/Backup ntfs-3g
>>>> nofail,auto,noatime,rw, 0 0
> [...]
>>>>
>>>> One of the arguments is missing and thus considered as invalid?
>>>>
>>>> You might make a bug report because this error message is misleading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You're right, I missed it before. There's an extra "," after rw in the
>>> mount options.
>>
>> I'll need to test that again, adding "," doesn't seem to make a difference
>> on my box, could be something wrong with my setup or something I am not
>> getting correctly (sorry for the noise).
>
> Third time is a charm.
>
> It's not the extra "," ; having a "," at the end of the mount options in
> fstab doesn't have any effect i.e. mounting the device works.
>
> The error "mount: /mnt/Backup: mount failed: Invalid argument" is due to
> the device not being present in the system, which is correct but the
> message is confusing as lee said (apparently confused more than others :)).

IMO the message is misleading because there is no invalid argument but
one is missing.  Man fstab says:


,
| Each filesystem is described on a
| separate line; fields on each line are separated by tabs or spaces.
| 
| [...]
| 
| The fourth field (fs_mntops).
|   This field describes the mount options associated with  the
|   filesystem.
| 
|   It  is  formatted as a comma separated list of options.
`


A comma at the end of the fourth field would indicate that something is
missing.  Perhaps the whole field is considered as an "invalid argument"
in that case.

You seem to say that a misplaced comma is silently ignored.  That won`t
be good, either.


Man fstab also says:


,
| nofail do  not report errors for this device if it does not
|  exist.
`


Unless the man page is wrong or there is a bug, you would not get the
error message you`re getting, provided that your mount options are
correct.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, “Why?”)

[lee]

Ian Malone  writes:

> On 23 March 2014 23:08, lee  wrote:
>> Ian Malone  writes:
>>
>>> There is no-one on the planet who thinks emacs is minimalistic
>>
>> I`m not so sure about that.  There are even ppl who have never heard
>> about emacs, and if they`d see it, they might very well think it is.
>>
>
> "Eight Megs and Constantly Swapping" This is a program which has the
> reputation of having a module for everything. Why are people who have
> never heard of it relevant?

Because their existence disproves that nobody thinks that emacs is
minimalistic.

>> Even if they don`t, I can still edit them and make adjustments if
>> necessary.  If anything fails, I can print the sources as they are.  Had
>> I used some WYSIWYG word processing software instead, I wouldn`t even be
>> able to read them anymore because this word processing software doesn`t
>> exist anymore since a long time.
>>
>
> Yes plain LaTeX is fairly readable in source form, but that's not an
> absolute requirement for being future proof. Educate yourself on ODF.
> You could even get the plain text out.

ODF didn`t exist twenty years ago.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Suvayu Ali  writes:

> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 10:56:13PM +0100, lee wrote:
>> 
>> There`s nothing weird or exotic about it.  I`ve always had /usr on its
>> own partition until the F17 installer refused that, which it shouldn`t
>> have.
>
> I'm sorry but the installer denying /usr on its own partition on F17 is
> the right thing to do.  I believe F17 introduced something called
> usr-move, meaning all the binaries in /bin /sbin are actually
> hardlinks/symlinks to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin.  I believe this was a
> multi-distribution effort.  In such a configuration, there is no
> justification or gain of putting it in a separate partition, on top of
> that the booting process becomes quite complicated.

/usr belongs on it`s own partition.  And last time I looked, it would
not be compliant with the FHS not to have what is needed in /bin and
/sbin but to use symlinks instead.


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Re: Is it irrelevant what users of FOSS think? (Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?"))

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 08:34:55PM +0100, lee wrote:
>> I`m somewhat surprised that the feeling of apparent desinterest of the
>> makers of Fedora in what its users think seems kinda widespread under
>> its users.  Perhaps it`s a wrong impression; if not, it may be something
>> for Fedora.next to address.
>
> I think it's unfair impression. Some of the developers only care about their
> own area, and perhaps the users of that thing but not the project overall,
> sure. But overall, we care very much.

... and time and resources are limited.

> The catch is: it's hard to get a good sense of what the userbase as a whole
> thinks. It's easy to conflate that with "care about what some users are
> repeating very loudly on a mailing list". That's certainly _some_ input, but
> it's a skewed view of the actual world.
>
> Many of the better possible ways to measure are very expensive, but overall,
> there is one which is straightforward and effective: users who represent a
> large enough community will have some percentage of people willing and able
> to contribute by becoming Fedora developers, and those people guide the
> project through their actions.

Are users making packages substantially different from users giving
input through a mailing list?  In both cases, you have a number of
users, and some of them do something, i. e. are active on the mailing
list or are active by making packages.

The ones making packages probably have more influence.  Is it supposed
to be like that?

> That's why we have Gnome, KDE, LXDE, and MATE-Compiz desktop spins --
> and, pointedly, not a fvwm one. If you really think that this is the
> best course for Fedora, I encourage you to step up and create
> one. (See <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Process>.)

I don`t understand why every possible choice should require making a
distribution on it`s own.

> Or, if that's not really you're thing, you could step back and focus on what
> you are suggesting is a bigger problem -- getting user input into Fedora.
> How could that be done better? Surveys? More user testing? An active "User
> Feedback SIG"?

I think that a mailing list like this one can provide a lot of input and
that extracting it can be a problem.  It`s not like all package
maintainers could read all posts here in order to figure out what users
might want.

Surveys might be a good idea, though someone would have to put them
together, and someone would have to extract the information from them.
Both of that isn`t easily done, either.

How do you currently find out what users want?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Bill Oliver  writes:

>>> Much of what we consider very important today was considered stupid
>>> when it first came out.
>>
>> Like?
>>
>
> Well, the automobile, aircraft, and personal computer immediately come
> to mind.

Those are good examples.  Yet nobody would take away your horse and cart
just like that and replace it with an automobile.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

> On Mar 24, 2014, at 6:45 AM, lee  wrote:
>> 
>> /usr belongs on it`s own partition.  
>
> As if no one has ever said that before, and as if it convinced even one 
> thinking person to change their mind. 

Thinking persons do not need to change their minds about it because they
realise that being able to have /usr on it`s own partition is a good
thing.

> Fedora has never defaulted to separate /usr partition. It's been two
> years since this was decided. That you're still experiencing cognitive
> dissonance over this ancient long ago resolve topic is your problem,
> not anyone else's.

I am not experiencing cognitive dissonance, and it`s not my fault when
Fedora made a retarded decision before I even started using it.  This
discussion is about Fedora.next, and it might be possible to fix the
problem in some future version of Fedora.

>> And last time I looked, it would
>> not be compliant with the FHS not to have what is needed in /bin and
>> /sbin but to use symlinks instead.
>
> bin lib lib64 are symlinks to their locations in /usr.

And that is supposed to be a good thing?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I,?“Why?”)

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

>> Partitioning took me about three hours with the installer of F19, with a
>> very simple setup and not even data to preserve and neither RAID, nor
>> encryption, and it was only possible after I created the partitions
>> outside the installer.  There was no way to do it with the installer, it
>> kept saying there isn`t enough room despite there was plenty, and it did
>> what it wanted rather than what I wanted.
>
> Please post the bugzilla URL.

I didn`t make one, I was busy trying to install.  You need to get used
to that not every problem is or can be made into a bug report,
especially not one that would be in any way useful.

I already said what I would have put into such a bug report in another
post.  It won`t be useful.

> Most of the size reporting problems like this are non-contiguous
> sections of free space being added up and reported as Available space;
> but the request is for a partition size greater than the largest
> contiguously available space.

Maybe it begins with the installer messing together all the disks in
some weird way rather than to treat them separately and just let you
partition them the way you want to.  IIRC, there wasn`t even a way to
tell it which partition to put where.  You could either pick only disk
(of the two there were) and install on only that, with the the other one
completely unusable. Or you could pick both of them, in which case there
was no way to tell what would happen because they were messed together
somehow.  You didn`t have a choice about the swap partition, either.  I
would just force you to use one that was already existing, with no way
to tell it not to use it or to delete it.  It just sucked.

>> It was seriously awful.  It would have taken 10--15 minutes with the
>> Debian installer.
>
> It isn't going to get better complaining about it on this list. Do you
> have bugzilla IDs, and if so post them. If not, then how do you expect
> the behavior to get any better? Magic?

The makers of the installer can always look into this list and see what
ppl say about the installer and learn from that.  Bug reports are not
suited for this, and complaining that ppl don`t make enough of them
doesn`t get you anywhere.

Or, since you keep insisting on bug reports, why don`t you go ahead and
put together a list of URLs to the list archive pointing to posts about
the installer to compile a combined bug report?

How much attention and fixing do you think that would get?  It`ll
probably be closed with WONTFIX, one reason being that what is said here
doesn`t refers much more to installers from F17 to F19.

Perhaps the installer of F20 has be re-designed from scratch, at least
when it comes to partitioning, and now works fine.

>> you just do country and keyboard setup --- which is missing in Fedoras
>> installer, there was no way to tell it that I have a German keyboard ---
>
> Fedora 18, 19 and 20 have a keyboard spoke in the installer which is
> how you tell it you want to use a German keyboard layout.

Whatever they might have, I tried several times (because I had to start
over many times because it refused to do the partitioning) to tell the
installer of F19 that I have a German keyboard, and there was no way.  I
don`t even know what you mean by "spoke".  You boot the life system,
search for "install" to find the installer, then you get an icon and
start the installer, and pretty soon you get stuck with trying to do the
partitioning.

>> It`s easy and straightforward as it used to be for the last twenty
>> years, and I never had trouble using it.  Why suddenly make installing
>> such a PITA like Fedoras installer does?
>
>
> Please don't ask silly questions that propose the intended design goal
> was to piss users off, it's irritating.

That seems to be an assumption you have.

If Debian has changed their installer to something the like what Fedora
has, I really don`t see why they suddenly would waste their effort on
creating a new installer that makes installing a PITA rather than
keeping and improving a perfectly good installer.  So tell me: Why would
they?

I wouldn`t mind if they made a new installer as good or even better as
the existing one.  They`d only need to leave the existing one around,
possibly as an easy to find option, or as the default, until the new is
ready to replace it.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I,?“Why?”)

[lee]

"Powell, Michael"  writes:

>> It doesn`t give you choices.  It leaves you in the dark about that it is 
>> somehow
>> possible to use an non-gui installer and to do a minimal install.  It leaves 
>> you
>> in the dark about what exactly happens when you do the partitioning and
>> with trying to figure out how get the partitioning you want.
>
> As I said before, the entire installer was rebuilt to promote a more
> laid back approach. The user can choose the order they wish to
> customize / experience the GUI installation instead of being forced
> down a specific path. There might be a couple mandatories, but for the
> most part it's all about choice.

Which installer are you referring to?  As to Fedora, I have only used
the ones of F17 and of F19, and none of them gave me any choices.  You
can start the installer and it doesn`t even let you do the partitioning
you want, which is the only choice you are getting.

I`m not an expert with Fedoras installers in any way.  This is simply my
"user experience".  Maybe the "user experience" the installer provides
should be different.

> A non-gui installation is not something that the majority of users
> will choose so it's not apparent, but if you want that method, here
> you go:
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/20/html/Installation_Guide/ch-guimode-x86.html#idm219166212128

Says who?  And why not give the users that choice instead of hiding it?

>> Partitioning took me about three hours with the installer of F19, with a very
> [...]
>> It was seriously awful.  It would have taken 10--15 minutes with the Debian
>> installer.
>
> I definitely think the usability of the partitioning scheme in the
> current installer needs work, but as I stated earlier, I think some
> people are just griping about the change instead of there actually
> being an issue;

Well, I don`t know what changed.

> although, it does sounds like you actually had an issue with it not
> detecting the correct size / free space of your drives.

It did detect the disks and showed them, but it didn`t let me do what I
wanted.

> You might want to submit a defect, because in comparison, I have a
> multi-drive setup with LUKs encryption and I can have both drives
> wiped and start all over with encryption in less than a minute or if I
> want to retain one disk scheme but clobber the other it takes about 3
> minutes.

Sooner or later I`ll probably try installing on a software RAID-1 with
encryption, with nothing else on the disks.  Can I make a video of that
by recording what`s on screen, after booting the life system?  It would
be possible to store the video over network.

>> > A large majority of the information from the older installer is still
>> > there, it's just up to the user to seek it out.
>> 
>> I don`t know anything about "the older installer" or how to seek out
>> information about it; I didn`t even know that there is an "older installer". 
>>  The
>> first Fedora installer I used was the one with F17.
>
> F17 had the 'old' installer. The 'new' installer was introduced in F18.

I like the old one better.  Except for not letting me have a /usr
partition, it worked.

>> > In essence the installer went from a hardcore presentational format to
>> > a more laid back format - a shift every OS has consciously made in the
>> > last decade.
>> 
>> I don`t know what you mean.  The Debian installer got more options and
>> some more clarity which was an improvement.  Otherwise it didn`t change,
>> you just do country and keyboard setup --- which is missing in Fedoras
>> installer, there was no way to tell it that I have a German keyboard ---
>> network setup if you don`t use DHCP, partitioning, a bit of package selection
>> if you want to, and then it installs.
>
> Keyboard configuration is not missing... it's one of the main hub options:
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/20/html/Installation_Guide/install-hub-x86.html

That one looks rather unfamiliar.  Was that in the F17 or F19 installers?

>> It`s easy and straightforward as it used to be for the last twenty years, 
>> and I
>> never had trouble using it.  Why suddenly make installing such a PITA like
>> Fedoras installer does?
>
> The computer industry knows that more and more people want
> installations to be less scary and faster. This trend has been seen in
> the evolution of the Windows installer, MacOS, most Linux distros, and
> even iOS or Android. There are going to be some Linux distros that
> don't embrace this, you mentioned Debian and I'm sure slackware and
> Arch won't either, but in the end it's all about attracting more users
> to the product. The choices are there, but us hardcore users just have
> to look more since we're the minority.

Faster, ok, that mainly depends on what the bandwidth of your internet
connection is and what the server side delivers.  The only two scary
things are the possibility that the network device doesn`t work (like
Debian missing modules for some) and, far worse, potentially loosing
y

Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Michael Cronenworth  writes:

> Chris Murphy wrote:
>>> Nowadays you may have SSDs which supposedly last longer when not written
>>> >much to but mostly read from, so you might put the partitions that can
>>> >be read-only on the SSDs and use magnetic disks for things like /var,
>>> >/tmp, /home and swap.
>> It's in the realm of 20+GB written per day every day, for the warranty 
>> period. If you're doing that, get an enterprise SSD. Or stick with HDDs.
>>
>>
>
> A standard, non-enterprise, consumer SSD will last far longer[1] than
> anyone thinks. Please put the myths and conspiracy theories that /tmp
> or /var/tmp or anything on any SSD is "bad" to rest.

That`s why I said "supposedly".  I don`t have an SSD and haven`t seen
any conclusive data yet that would actually show which type of disk
lasts longer.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Liam Proven  writes:

>> Having been able to have /usr on a separate partition was a valuable
>> feature, which now has gone lost. IMNSHO, ruined by naive, inexperienced
>> kids (to use the same tone as you did), who were overwhelmed by the
>> additional complexity supporting this feature had required.
>
> I am not saying you're wrong, merely that I personally haven't seen a
> use or need for it since about 1989 and I found the reasoning for its
> collapse and merger to be sound.

And that you can`t see a use or need for something means that it`s
obsolete?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Liam Proven  writes:

> On 24 March 2014 12:45, lee  wrote:
>> /usr belongs on it`s own partition.  And last time I looked, it would
>> not be compliant with the FHS not to have what is needed in /bin and
>> /sbin but to use symlinks instead.
>
>
> I think that's a very 1980s, or early-1990s, way of looking at it.
>
> Since the normal way to boot a PC now is a complete functioning OS on
> a single removable-media volume - be that an optical disk or USB flash
> media

I guess you mean when booting an installer?

> - most of the rationale for splitting up  the bits of the /usr
> tree have long ceased to apply.

Which ones in particular are you referring to?

> The smallest hard disks available today (~500GB) are roughly 2 orders
> of magnitude bigger than is needed for a full Linux desktop install
> (~5GB). It is not possible to buy a new computer without a graphical
> display.

And?

Besides, you can still buy disks with less capacity.

> There is no need for separating out admin binaries, user binaries,
> local binaries, graphical binaries etc. any more, and hasn't been for
> about 2 decades.

I have always found it very useful, and it still is.  Are you even
assuming that people have only single disk or single volume?

> I think it's a brilliant, if brave, idea of Fedora to get rid of a
> historical distinction that is now pointless, but it's planned and
> discussed and decided, as far as I know:

I don`t exactly know what they are doing, but I find it would be a very
stupid idea to give up a useful and reasonable distinction between
software for different uses and to loose the order the FHS brings about.
Sure you can do it as an option if you like and put everything on a
single partition; nobody keeps you from doing that.  Don`t force it upon
anyone who doesn`t want it, though.


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

> On Mar 23, 2014, at 3:56 PM, lee  wrote:
>> 
>> There`s nothing weird or exotic about it.  I`ve always had /usr on its
>> own partition until the F17 installer refused that, which it shouldn`t
>> have.
>
> Old news.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#I_have_.2Fusr_as_a_separate_partition._What_changes_for_me.3F
>
> and
>
> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken/

So Fedora failed miserably because these articles point out that /usr
can be mounted read-only and assume that /usr can be on it`s own
partition, maybe shared over network.

And following the arguments for moving everything to /usr, you would
have to say that /usr should be in /boot.  You can then use symlinks
from there.

>> RAID isn`t exotic, either.
>
> It kinda is. The definition of exotic is "not ordinarily encountered."
> And that's even if you look at just the Linux universe, because
> overwhelmingly most users don't use it. If you look at the rest of the
> computing world it's either not an install time option or not
> possible.

It`s a a recipe for failure not to use raid, and which Linux
distribution doesn`t support it?  It`s "ordinarily encountered" not only
with Linux distributions.  Perhaps an overwhelming majority of users use
it, you don`t know that.  You could as well say that being able to
define styles for paragraphs with WYSIWYG word processors is an exotic
feature because the great majority of users don`t use it.

>> I always use separate partitions.  It has lots of advantages.
>
> It also has many disadvantages. Hence LVM thinp and btrfs subvolumes
> as alternatives.

Nobody says that you have to use either --- except the F17 installer not
only telling you but not even allowing you to have /usr on its own
partition like it should be.

>>> I might split off /var on a server but I'd need a remarkably
>>> persuasive use case, and on servers, I use extra-stable distros
>>> without GUIs, not something like Fedora.
>> 
>> /var can get full, and it`s written to, same goes for /tmp.
>
> Use quotas.

Why the hassle?  And quotas don`t magically adjust the performance of
the disks.

>> Nowadays you may have SSDs which supposedly last longer when not written
>> much to but mostly read from, so you might put the partitions that can
>> be read-only on the SSDs and use magnetic disks for things like /var,
>> /tmp, /home and swap.
>
> It's in the realm of 20+GB written per day every day, for the warranty
> period. If you're doing that, get an enterprise SSD. Or stick with
> HDDs.

How long the warranty lasts is pretty irrelevant.

>> Why wouldn`t you use different partitions?  I can see it (and have done
>> it) for when the available disk capacity is extremely limited, but
>> otherwise it doesn`t make any sense and has nothing but disadvantages.
>
> It's cute when people project their world view in such narrow
> terms. Looking over at Windows and OS X, for 20+ years they've had at
> most two partitions, one for boot and one for everything else. OS X
> only just went from one partition for everything to two just a few
> releases ago in order to support full disk encryption (around a decade
> after Linux had it, but then it's also on-the-fly COW online
> convertible bidirectionally). So there isn't an inherent good for
> partitioning. It's useful for certain use cases. It's a negative for
> others.

Windoze is a total mess.  Try to keep the applications you have
installed separate from the data and the system and you`ll see.  I don`t
know what OS X does.  Sure you can mess everything together without
using partitions.  That doesn`t mean it`s a good idea.

>>> But this just illustrates the breadth of scenarios a successful
>>> installer must cope with!
>> 
>> It`s merely a reasonable standard thing to use separate partitions and a
>> requirement to use RAID, and encrypted partitions for laptops, not
>> something in any way unusual.
>
> It is in fact unusual. What you're doing is proposing that what works
> for you, as a default for everyone. And your arguments for changing
> the paradigm are completely uncompelling.

There`s nothing unusual about it.  You may have done things differently,
and whatever reasons you might have for that are not convincing.  That
doesn`t mean that everyone should be forced to do it the same way as you
do.

> "a requirement to use RAID" is particularly irritating because you're
> saying everyone without boot from SAN capability, or a laptop, should
> be required to have two like sized drives to do an install. Otherwise
> it wouldn't be "required". S

Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?")

[lee]

Liam Proven  writes:

> On 23 March 2014 21:56, lee  wrote:
>> There`s nothing weird or exotic about it.  I`ve always had /usr on its
>> own partition until the F17 installer refused that, which it shouldn`t
>> have.
>
> As I have commented elsewhere, I think this is a 1980s style of
> thinking. Things have changed. Move on. Sorry, but they have; see the
> links elsewhere.

It doesn`t matter what you think.  I have good reasons to do the
partitioning I do.

Besides, I would find it unreasonable to say that something which has
been done in a particular way since and for a long time is suddenly
something weird and exotic.

>> RAID isn`t exotic, either.  Disks do fail, the only question is when,
>> and I neither want to lose data, nor the hassle.
>
> Sure, I use it on all my servers.
>
>> Installing on a laptop requires encrypted partitions.  They can be
>> stolen too easily.
>
> I have never ever used this and never expect or plan to. I suggest
> that your blanket statement is too sweeping.

You don`t need to plan or to expect to ever use something.  Perhaps you
have a better alternative to prevent data stored on laptops from getting
into the wrong hands for instances when the laptops get stolen.  Perhaps
you always do messy installs without decent partitioning.  Perhaps you
don`t --- it doesn`t matter because you are not the only person for whom
Fedoras installer would need to work.

>>> I never separate out /tmp or /var or /usr/local - I only ever use /
>>> and /home basically.
>>
>> I always use separate partitions.  It has lots of advantages.
>
> As I said, I use / and /home and advise against combining them.

And I advise against it.  Do it when you like it and let others do what
they like.  I could very well claim that not using separate partitions
is weird and exotic, just as you claim that using them is.

> Personally I think that's enough. I am not disputing your reasons, but
> AIUI, Fedora is trying out a move to flatten and simplify the
> way-too-complex directory hierarchy. It's happened. The decision is
> made. Deal with it, move on.

There is nothing too complex about it.  Should I find that I still can`t
have /usr on its own partition next time I install Fedora, I`ll just
install something else instead.

>> /var can get full, and it`s written to, same goes for /tmp.
>
> As I said elsewhere: when the smallest new HD you can buy is half a
> terabyte (and even SSDs start at half that) this really isn't a big
> issue any more.

So when a disk has a capacity of at least 500MB, it never can get full.
Please prove this theory.

>>   How do you
>> mount /usr read-only?
>
> I don't. Never have in 26y of Unix systems support. For rescue, now, I
> boot off a LiveDVD or LiveUSB.

I do.  It`s a very simple and useful precaution and weird and exotic not
to do it.

>>   Especially on a server, it`s a good idea to mount
>> everything read-only that you can.  When you have several disks, you can
>> do your partitioning in such a way that you get better performance.
>
> [...]
> So he came in and I set up a test and showed him that, to 2 decimal
> places in a percentage-based benchmark score, i.e. well below
> measurement error, there was absolutely *no* difference between the
> speeds of different areas of the disk.

I never actually tried to test it, so this may be the case or not.

Putting things at different places of a disk it`s not the only way to
make use of partitions to get better performance.

> Now, it is not real. It is not there any more. Disks are a thousand
> times bigger and faster now. This stuff does not matter any more and
> hasn't since before Linux 2.0 was released.

You are omitting that the amounts of data also have increased.

>> Especially when you have a server, you may need a (pretty much) granted
>> capacity on /var or /tmp to make sure it will continue to operate ---
>> without separate partitions, your users may fill up the disks ...
>
> Users shouldn't be able to write stuff to / at all! Only to /home or
> below, or dedicated data partitions. Where /usr or /var is should not
> matter to them.

I didn`t say that users should be able to write to /.  When you don`t
have a separate partition for /home, they don`t need to write to / to
fill it.

Log files and cached files go into /var and may fill it.

>> Nowadays you may have SSDs which supposedly last longer when not written
>> much to but mostly read from, so you might put the partitions that can
>> be read-only on the SSDs and use magnetic disks for things like /var,
>> /tmp, /home and swap.
>
> Machines come with dozens of gigs of RAM now. I'm not sure there's
> much argument for swap at all, and personally, I use tmpfs for 

Re: Is it irrelevant what users of FOSS think? (Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?"))

[lee]

Tim  writes:

> I reckon it's the case for most OSs that /most/ users don't really care
> much about what they're using, nor how it works.  The large number of
> clueless people using computers would seem to be evidence of that.

The number of clueless people is also large without computers.
Computers might only make that number larger.

> It's a lesser number of people that have concerns about their OS.
> Maybe that's why developers are less concerned about public opinions.

Or maybe people don`t bother to have or bring about concerns because the
developers don`t care.


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Re: Is it irrelevant what users of FOSS think? (Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I, "Why?"))

[lee]

Stephen Gallagher  writes:

> On 03/24/2014 09:22 AM, lee wrote:
>> The ones making packages probably have more influence.  Is it
>> supposed to be like that?
>> 
>
>
> Frankly, yes. Feedback on a list is fine, but anyone can say "Hey, I
> wish it was more like this:", but ultimately it will be up to someone
> to actually implement that change. The ones who go and do the work are
> the ones who have the final say on what happens.

Sure, and the ones who do the work can`t very well ask the users for
every little detail of an implementation.  Still that someone needs to
do the work doesn`t mean that the ones doing it /should/ have more
influence by default.

> Very little change or improvement ever happens because a lot of people
> talked about doing something for years. Things change because someone
> actually goes and makes it happen. That's the culture we try to
> encourage in Fedora.

Then it is irrelevant what the users think unless they care to and
manage to find some way to make it happen --- and once they do that,
they aren`t users anymore.  It means that users are not involved in
making a distribution and not concerned with things like leading the
advancement of FOSS.

This makes the whole discussion about Fedora.next off-topic here,
doesn`t it?

>>> That's why we have Gnome, KDE, LXDE, and MATE-Compiz desktop
>>> spins -- and, pointedly, not a fvwm one. If you really think that
>>> this is the best course for Fedora, I encourage you to step up
>>> and create one. (See
>>> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Process>.)
>> 
>> I don`t understand why every possible choice should require making
>> a distribution on it`s own.
>> 
>
> You're confusing a spin with a distribution (and a product with a
> distribution).

Perhaps --- I know I can download different life systems to install
Fedora which come with different "desktop environments".  That presents
itself as a bunch of different distributions which are all Fedora, with
one of them apparently being the "original" and the only apparent
difference being that they install different "desktop environments" by
default.  Since I`m not using any of them, it doesn`t matter which
distributions I pick, so I picked what seems to be the "original",
vaguely guessing that it might be the most complete and perhaps best
thought out one, and go from there.

Whether one or some of these distributions is or are called "spin" or
"product" is irrelevant for me.  It only makes me wonder why I can`t
download an installer, preferably a life system, and install from there,
choosing what I want to have when I`m about to install.  Will I miss
something and/or not be able to have it when I download the installer
for the "original", or for one of the others?

That`s merely "user experience".  Why make it confusing for the user?

> Both products and spins are curated sets of packages from a single
> distribution (Fedora). Each one has its own reason for existing (in
> the case of the desktop spins, it's basically to show off a particular
> piece of technology).

Why would that require it`s own distribution?  Can`t I just choose to
install that particular piece of technology when I want to try it out?

> For the Products, we're working to establish specific *solutions*.
> Recognizing that most people install an operating system so that,
> well, they can operate their system, we're trying to build solutions
> for three common use-cases so that newcomers to the Fedora Project
> don't feel like they need to make a thousand individual package
> choices to get their system running.

Why would that require different distributions?  Just have something
like what Debian calls "tasks", i. e. particular pre-defined package
selections users can choose from when installing.  That would be less
confusing.

> There will always be people who want to do that, and we'll continue to
> cater to them by having the wider package set remain available (as
> well as the spins process so people who care enough can build new
> install-and-deployment media).

That seems a really strange way of doing things, and it makes me think
it`s overly complicated and wastes a lot of effort in that so many
different distributions have to be created instead of just making one
distribution that lets users pick what they want.  And what if I pick
"product A", whatever that might be, because I need Z, and then I find
that I need X from "product B" as well.  I can`t have it because I made
the wrong pick and need to create another distribution myself to get it
because there is no Fedora distribution that has both X and Z?

No wonder that people don`t use Fedora ...

>>> ge

Re: the "separate /usr" subthread

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 08:19:52PM +0100, lee wrote:
>> >> /usr belongs on it`s own partition.  
>> > As if no one has ever said that before, and as if it convinced even one 
>> > thinking person to change their mind. 
>> Thinking persons do not need to change their minds about it because they
>> realise that being able to have /usr on it`s own partition is a good
>> thing.
>
> It's important to realize that you *can* have a separate /usr -- it just
> really needs to be available at boot time.

The F17 installer wouldn`t let me have it.

> That means you can have separate mount options, filesystems, partition
> constraints, or whatever. It just doesn't work anymore to have it on a
> network share or (if anyone ever did this!) removable media added
> after initial boot.

But it works when you plug it in before booting?

> I used the network share case in the mid 1990s, when we were trying to cram
> Irix 6 onto 800MB workstation drives. These days, that's not really an
> issue. (And, hey, you can fit minimal Fedora in that space!) It might be
> neat for some special cases, but I hope we can all agree that it *is* a
> special case (and that Fedora isn't necessarily the right thing to cover all
> special cases).

It`s probably not totally impossible to do it, or is it?


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Re: Fedora Present and Future: a Fedora.next 2014 Update (Part I,?“Why?”)

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

> On Mar 25, 2014, at 2:41 AM, lee  wrote:
>> Maybe it begins with the installer messing together all the disks in
>> some weird way rather than to treat them separately and just let you
>> partition them the way you want to.  IIRC, there wasn`t even a way to
>> tell it which partition to put where.
>
> It is possible although the UI isn't obvious. You click on the mount
> point in question, and then there is this 3rd or 4th button under the
> mount points section that looks like a wrench and screwdriver (?) that
> you click. And that brings up a dialog where you choose which drive
> that mount point's underlying partition appears on.

Clicking on unknown icons like that is a scary thing to do when you can
expect that it potentially deletes your data.

I`m not a fan of icons.  I`m not that visually orientated that I would
remember them or that I could somehow guess from a, often tiny and
difficult to figure out picture, what something might be supposed to do.

Anyway, messing the disks together contradicts what the user is doing.
You don`t create partitions in thin air but on particular disks or
volumes.

>>> It isn't going to get better complaining about it on this list. Do you
>>> have bugzilla IDs, and if so post them. If not, then how do you expect
>>> the behavior to get any better? Magic?
>> 
>> The makers of the installer can always look into this list and see what
>> ppl say about the installer and learn from that.
>
> No they will not do this, and it's inappropriate to even suggest
> it. That you don't get that simply means you're ignorant of how the
> process works.

Apparently they don`t do it, and that may very well be where some of the
impression that the makers of the distribution are far away from the
users and don`t care what they think comes from.

Why would it be inappropriate to suggest that they take a look?  Would
you rather copy all relevant posts from this mailing list into a bug
report?

This discussion is about Fedora.next, which seems to be some sort of
effort to figure out what Fedora needs to or should do in the future.
When suggestions towards that are considered inappropriate, why are we
having this discussion?

>
>>  Bug reports are not
>> suited for this, and complaining that ppl don`t make enough of them
>> doesn`t get you anywhere.
>
> Filing a bug report is the process. That's it. It works this way for
> everything: gnome, kde, and even commercial projects do it this
> way. They do not have developers hanging out in user forums
> ever. Sometimes QA people hang out in user forums.

And Fedora cannot do any better because?

>> Or, since you keep insisting on bug reports, why don`t you go ahead and
>> put together a list of URLs to the list archive pointing to posts about
>> the installer to compile a combined bug report?
>
> Why don't you go ahead and send me 4-5 bitcoins and I'll think about it?

What are bitcoins?

> This is how I know your problem isn't really serious, because it's so
> unimportant to you, you won't lift a finger to contribute to any
> improvement. Why should I help you since you won't even help yourself?

Sure, that`s why I`m taking part in this discussion.  But as you wish.
I`m done with this discussion, it`s obviously pointless.


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Re: Advice on which web browser as a second choice.

[Lee]

My two are seamonkey and Firefox. For quick lookups, I often use lynx in a
terminal.
On Mar 28, 2014 7:30 AM, "Bill Case"  wrote:

> Hi;
>
> I used to use epiphany, now web, as my second browser.  Firefox has
> always been my first choice.
>
> But I like to use a small really quick browser for extra tasks like
> looking up definitions of words or doing a quick wikipedia search while
> writing. I want something I can keep small on the page or workplace were
> I am currently working and that I can get rid of or out of the way
> quickly.
>
> I used Dillo for a while several years ago.  I now seem to have quite a
> few more choices.  Rather than experimenting with them all I am asking
> if members of the list have a favourite simple and fast second choice to
> Firefox.
> --
> Regards William Case,
> Fedora 20, Gnome 3.10.1,
> Evo 3.10.4, Emacs 24x.
>
> --
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Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)

[lee]

Matthew Miller  writes:

> Trying Wayland (and Gnome 3.12)
> ---
>
> Wayland is the upcoming successor to the X11 graphics protocol which
> powers our desktops. It's not done yet, but you can try it first in
> Fedora.

Does it work with fvwm?


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Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)

[lee]

Rahul Sundaram  writes:

> Hi
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:29 PM, lee  wrote:
>
>>
>> > Trying Wayland (and Gnome 3.12)
>> > ---
>> >
>> > Wayland is the upcoming successor to the X11 graphics protocol which
>> > powers our desktops. It's not done yet, but you can try it first in
>> > Fedora.
>>
>> Does it work with fvwm?
>>
>
> Not directly.  Window managers and toolkits needs to be explicitly ported
> over.

Hm, not really useful when it doesn`t work with existing WMs ...


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Re: Five Things in Fedora This Week (2014-04-01)

[lee]

Joe Zeff  writes:

> On 04/01/2014 09:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> That would be the responsibility of the WM's themselves.  WM's have to
>> add support.  Not the other way around as you seem to think.
>
> Which is why I pointed out that the question was if fvwm works with
> Wayland, not the other way around.

It has been established that it is irrelevant what users think.  I`m
merely saying that wayland seems not very useful when it doesn`t work
with most of the existing WMs.


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Re: CLI access to server -

[Lee]

On Apr 9, 2014 2:32 PM, "Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA" <
bobgood...@wildblue.net> wrote:
>
> I have assembled a FreeNAS server connected to my LAN and need to access
it from my Fedora computers.
>
> In this box, Fedora 20 XFCE, the file manager, Thunar, displays a
location "Network" under which the server appears. I would like to see that
from the command line but don't know how.
>
> Can someone tell me how?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
> --

I believe you could use ssh/sshd for this purpose.
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Re: Graphical tool that sets hostname

[Lee]

FWIW, try...

1. Edit /etc/conf.d/hostname to be:

HOSTNAME="mycomputer"

2. Edit /etc/hosts to be

127.0.0.1 mycomputer.mydomain.local mycomputer

HTH!
On Apr 22, 2014 2:04 PM, "Chris Kottaridis"  wrote:

> I installed Fedora 19 and the machine gets IP address from DHCP and
> comes up with a hostname of:
>
> $ hostname
> unknownF46D04B04638
>
> I'd like to set the hostname to match the DNS name that goes with the
> Address it's getting assigned.
>
> I believe I could use:
>
> $ hostnamectl --static myhost
>
> will set the hostname to myhost.
>
> However, is there a graphical admin tool that will do it ?
>
> In older releases network manager had an option to set the hostname, but
> doesn't seem to now.
>
> Thanks
> Chris Kottaridis
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Re: Brother DCP7065dn laser printer on Fedora 20 [was Re: All-in-one laser printer recommendation]

[Lee]

Just wondering, do all Brother printers ship with Linux drivers?
On Apr 28, 2014 11:07 AM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier"  wrote:

> | From: Fred Smith 
>
> | I'm using a Brother DCP7065DN at home, and it seems to work well with
> | Linux, BUT you have to use Brother's drivers for it. The driver
> recommended
> | by the RH printer tool didn't work for me.
> |
> | I've printed to it from Centos 6.5, Fedora 19, and Fedora 20, so far.
> | I've used the scanner portion only from Centos, so far, where it did
> | work.
>
> I've used it with Fedora 18, 19, CentOS 5, and Ubuntu 12.04.
>
> I just installed the drivers on my Fedora 20 system, and it's not
> quite working.
>
> First of all, I'm not sure the best way to talk over the network with
> the printer.  Both of these URIs seem to work:
> dnssd://Brother%20DCP-7065DN._pdl-datastream._tcp.local/
> lpd://redpaper.mimosa.com
>
> I think that the first uses the IPP protocol and the second is using
> the old UNIX "line printer daemon" protocol.  Perhaps even HP's
> jetdirect could be used.
>
> I put holes in the firewall for IPP, IPP-client
>
> In any case, printing works, but the settings are unreliable.
>
> One print job came out as if I had legal size paper loaded (so there
> was extra margin on the top and the bottom was chopped).
>
> Another came out the single page image scrunched into a quarter of the
> paper as if the software were trying to print four pages in one.
>
> In both cases, the settings I specified were as I wanted them, not as
> the result appeared.
>
> I was using these drivers from the Brother site:
> cupswrapperDCP7065DN-2.0.4-2.i386.rpm
> dcp7065dnlpr-2.1.0-1.i386.rpm
>
> BTW, I was able to get scanning to work.  Mind you, I have only
> scanned one page.  I had to hole the firewall:
> sudo firewall-cmd --add-port=54925-54926/udp
> sudo firewall-cmd --permanent --add-port=54925-54926/udp
> In the past, the page sizing of scanning has been somewhat unreliable.  I
> don't know if this is still true.
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Re: Brother DCP7065dn laser printer on Fedora 20 [was Re: All-in-one laser printer recommendation]

[Lee]

Just wondering, what is the interface you use to install the drivers,
whether they're from Brother or the operating system? CUPS?
On Apr 29, 2014 6:01 AM, "Fred Smith"  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 08:06:57PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> > | From: Lee 
> >
> > | Just wondering, do all Brother printers ship with Linux drivers?
> >
> > No.  Many don't need proprietary drivers.  Some have proprietary
> > drivers.  I would guess some don't have Linux drivers at all.
> >
> > As usual, one good resource is
> > <https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/en/OpenPrinting/Database/DatabaseIntro
> >
> >
> > The other is Brother's site.  For example, here's the driver page for
> > the DCP7065dn
> > <
> http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadtop.aspx?c=ca&lang=en&prod=dcp7065dn_all
> >
> > Notice that it mentions Linux as a choice.
>
> As I may have said earlier (I forget which thread it was, maybe not this
> one),
> we have a DCP7065 at home and it works fine for me on multiple Fedora and
> Centos versions using Brother's driver. So far I haven't found a driver
> that
> ships with Fedora/Centos that works on this device. (OTOH, my older
> HL-2070N works fine with the generic drivers that come with Linux, so
> I've never even attempted Brothers' drivers for that one.)
>
> But, in another thread a few weeks (month or two, perhaps) ago someone
> pointed out a script available from Brother that asks you about the
> device models, addresses, etc. then downloads and installs the driver files
> for you, including any little tweaks that are needed.
>
> You can get it from this URL:
>
>
> http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadend.aspx?c=us_ot&lang=en&prod=dcp7065dn_all&os=127&dlid=dlf006893_000&flang=4&type3=625
>
> I've used it for the 7065 on at leasat two of my systems and it makes
> a tedious job into a trivial job.
>
> Fred
>
> --
>  Fred Smith -- fre...@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us-
>   The eyes of the Lord are everywhere,
> keeping watch on the wicked and the good.
> - Proverbs 15:3 (niv)
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Re: printer

[Lee]

On May 5, 2014 3:22 PM, "Patrick Dupre"  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Every time that I reboot, I lost the queue configuration of my printer.
> I have to remove the printer and add it again.
> How can I avoid this disfunctioning in fedora 20?
>
> Thank.
>
>

Try reinstalling CUPS.
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replacement for seamonkey?

[lee]

Hi,

are we going to need a replacement for seamonkey which comes without
restrictions management, and will there be one in Fedora?


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Re: replacement for seamonkey?

[lee]

Tim  writes:

> On Fri, 2014-05-16 at 07:57 +0200, lee wrote:
>> are we going to need a replacement for seamonkey which comes without
>> restrictions management,
>
> Care to clarify that double negative?  You want something with
> restrictions?

No, just seamonkey, or a suitable replacement for it, without.  I don`t
want restrictions.


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Re: Sending email to my local server

[Lee]

I can add, make sure any firewall has permission to accept email traffic.
On May 19, 2014 9:44 AM, "Rick Stevens"  wrote:

> On 05/18/2014 05:06 PM, Timothy Murphy issued this missive:
>
>> I'm trying to send email from my Fedora-20/KDE laptop "rose"
>> to my CentOS-6.5 local home server "grover"
>> (in order to run a SpamAssassin test),
>> but I am finding this surprisingly difficult.
>>
>> I've tried with KMail and mail,
>> sending email to "tim@grover", "tim@grover.localdomain",
>> and various other combinations, but all fail with "recipient rejected".
>> And telnet gives
>>[tim@rose ~]$ telnet 192.168.2.5 25
>>Trying 192.168.2.5...
>>telnet: connect to address 192.168.2.5: Connection refused
>>
>> Is there a setting I could change, or is the exercise hopeless?
>>
>
> Are you certain that grover is running an MTA and that it's listening
> to anything other than 127.0.0.1? Easiest way to find out:
>
> # netstat -lpnt | grep :25
>
> If you only see something like:
>
> tcp0  0 127.0.0.1:25 ...
>
> then it's running, but won't accept incoming mail from the outside
> world. You'll need to bugger the config to make it listen to an
> additional IP. How you do that depends on if it's sendmail or postfix.
>
> If you don't see a line like that at all, then your MTA isn't even
> running.
> --
> - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
> - AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 -
> --
> -   UNIX is actually quite user friendly.  The problem is that it's  -
> -  just very picky of who its friends are!   -
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Re: replacement for seamonkey?

[lee]

Gary Stainburn  writes:

> On Friday 16 May 2014 06:57:57 lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> are we going to need a replacement for seamonkey which comes without
>> restrictions management, and will there be one in Fedora?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Fedora release 20 (Heisenbug)
>
> I've obviously missed something. Can someone please tell me exactly which 
> package(s) have been updated and how.

Please see https://u.fsf.org/xk

Packages probably haven`t been updated yet, though with things going
that way, it won`t be too long before it becomes illegal to publish
anything without restrictions management.  Once that is established,
guess who will extend the control they are taking of you even further.


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Re: So has anyone gotten their sound to work since it broke a few days ago?

[lee]

Someone  writes:

> I'm completely up to date, and I've rebooted several times. Has anyone
> had any luck with playing sound?

Logged in as a second user, that user cannot play sound.  This hasn`t
been fixed since F17 :(

Any idea how to fix that?


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Re: Sending email to my local server

[lee]

Timothy Murphy  writes:

> I'm trying to send email from my Fedora-20/KDE laptop "rose"
> to my CentOS-6.5 local home server "grover"
> (in order to run a SpamAssassin test),
> but I am finding this surprisingly difficult.
>
> I've tried with KMail and mail,
> sending email to "tim@grover", "tim@grover.localdomain",
> and various other combinations, but all fail with "recipient rejected".
> And telnet gives
>   [tim@rose ~]$ telnet 192.168.2.5 25
>   Trying 192.168.2.5...
>   telnet: connect to address 192.168.2.5: Connection refused
>
> Is there a setting I could change, or is the exercise hopeless?

Do you have a name server running, and is the MTA listening on the interface?


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drc

[lee]

Hi,

is it finally possible to do DRC with pulseaudio, and if so, how?

DRC is still the only thing it could actually be useful for here ...

Or is there some video player that has it built in?

It would be really nice to be able to understand what ppl are saying
without being deafened by music or other loud sounds.  Even a simple
limiter that prevents the sound from getting too loud might suffice.


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Re: Off topic: web hosting sites

[lee]

Les Howell  writes:

>   I have a relative who has a somewhat successful regional business
> currently located in Arizona, who wants to get a website set up for his
> product(s). He investigated GoDaddy, but didn't seem happy with their
> terms and conditions.  I'm not entrepreneurial enough to even know where
> to start or what to look for.  Any advice or recommendations would be
> helpful.

First he needs a clearer specification of what he wants: A website for
his company or no more than a webshop for his products.  He needs to
think about which webshop he wants to use, how products are entered into
a webshop, how orders placed there are going to be handled, what kind of
customer support he wants to offer and how returns are to be handled.

That may involve hiring a web designer to create and to maintain his web
site, hiring a photographer to take pictures of his products to be used
in the webshop and needing someone to enter the products and to create
sufficient documentation of the products for potential customers to
review.  He also needs to think about how to get people visiting his web
site/shop.

As to hosting the site, I`d do that myself or, if the available
bandwidth is insufficient, try to find a small local company and talk to
them.  99.99% of so-called support sucks badly[1], so he`d be better off
with local people he can actually talk to and get things done.

In any case, being able to move the site and shop to a different hoster
would be a crucial point to consider.  He probably doesn`t want to get
stuck with a particular provider after having invested a good deal of
work and money when he suddenly finds out that he`s unhappy in some way
with what they offer.

It`s a good idea to try out different things first.  He can always set
up a server and try out oscommerce[2] to get an idea of what he`s
getting into.


[1]: My latest example is HP being unable to replace a simple UPS
 battery.  They said I could file a support ticket they, of course,
 would charge me for just to find out a price for a new one.  I
 thought HP is a big company which surely is able to deliver spare
 parts for their products, yet they can`t even give you a price.  I
 had to buy a new UPS and went with another manufacturer.  That
 hasn`t been the first case their so-called support totally sucks,
 so I don`t buy HP anymore.

[2]: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OsCommerce


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input devices

[lee]

Hi,

what would be the device for a Kensington Slimblade which is connected
to a PS/2 port with an USB-->PS/2 adapter?  The device doesn`t seem to
appear anywhere when connected like that.


And what are virtual keyboards for, and why do I supposedly have two
power buttons?


,
| ~ $ xinput --list
| ⎡ Virtual core pointerid=2[master pointer  (3)]
| ⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer  id=4[slave  pointer 
 (2)]
| ⎜   ↳ Kensington Kensington Slimblade Trackball   id=8[slave  pointer 
 (2)]
| ⎣ Virtual core keyboard   id=3[master keyboard (2)]
| ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard id=5[slave  
keyboard (3)]
| ↳ Power Buttonid=6[slave  
keyboard (3)]
| ↳ Power Buttonid=7[slave  
keyboard (3)]
| ↳ AT Translated Set 2 keyboardid=9[slave  
keyboard (3)]
| ~ $ 
`


There is only one power button, and it is not at the keyboard.


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Re: Off topic: HP UPS battery

[lee]

Doug  writes:

> On 05/24/2014 06:29 AM, lee wrote:
>> Les Howell  writes:
> /large snip/
>>
>> [1]: My latest example is HP being unable to replace a simple UPS
>>   battery.  They said I could file a support ticket they, of course,
>>
>>
> If you had taken the UPS apart, you would have found a battery that
> could easily have been replaced

Since the UPS is running 24/7, I wanted an actual replacement battery
and not take any unnecessary risk of things going up in flames.

> and HP is not in the battery business,

They are selling these UPSs for about 400, with batteries included.
That puts them very well into the battery business.

> so you could buy a replacement from a source that would almost surely
> be cheaper!

Batteries with the same specs are not available elsewhere; you can only
get them with smaller connectors.  Can you guarantee that the smaller
connectors don`t melt down?  And why doesn`t HP use batteries that can
easily be replaced from other sources when they are incapable of
delivering replacements?

Now go ahead and buy one of their servers for $10k+.  After a few years
one of the fans or the PSU or something else in it fails and you have to
buy a new server for another 10k+ because HP is unable to deliver the
required spare part which isn`t available anywhere else.  Do you want to
take that risk?


Batteries in UPSs are parts which last only so long before they have to
be replaced.  One can expect from a big manufacturer like HP that
replacement parts for their products are readily available, especially
for crucial products like UPSs.

One can also expect that HP knows that batteries in UPSs last only a few
years and that their customers will need replacements.  When they don`t
know this or don`t care about their customers, or when they argue that
they are not in the business, then they better close the whole company
right away.

That HP fails miserably to even give you a price for a spare part for
one of their products which regularly needs to be replaced and that they
are completely unable to deliver the part only shows that HP utterly
sucks.  Why take the risk of buying anything from them?


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Re: input devices

[lee]

ny6...@gmail.com writes:

> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 06:18:58PM +0200, lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> what would be the device for a Kensington Slimblade which is connected
>> to a PS/2 port with an USB-->PS/2 adapter?  The device doesn`t seem to
>> appear anywhere when connected like that.
>> 
>> 
>> And what are virtual keyboards for, and why do I supposedly have two
>> power buttons?
>> 
>> There is only one power button, and it is not at the keyboard.
>
> Please see: http://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/HID_KENSINGTON.html

Thanks, I didn`t know that there is a module for it.  This module
doesn`t seem to be available with Fedora kernels, though.  Does someone
know why?  Should I make a bug report about it missing?

The device works fine without this module when connected to an USB
port.  I`m trying to get it to work when it`s connected to PS/2 with an
adapter.


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Re: input devices

[lee]

"T.C. Hollingsworth"  writes:

> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 9:18 AM, lee  wrote:
>> what would be the device for a Kensington Slimblade which is connected
>> to a PS/2 port with an USB-->PS/2 adapter?  The device doesn`t seem to
>> appear anywhere when connected like that.
>
> It should appear like any other PS/2 mouse.  If it does not appear,
> your mouse does not support the PS/2 protocol.
>
> Most USB-to-PS/2 adapters are passive converters, and require the
> device itself to speak the PS/2 protocol.  Many keyboards and mice
> were (and some still are) designed to speak both the PS/2 and USB HID
> protocols so they can be used with such passive converters.  Most new
> ones (e.g. this decade) only speak USB.
>
> If you really must use the PS/2 port, they do make _active_ adapters
> that work with any sort of device.

Oh, ok, that`s probably the problem I have! I need a different adapter
...

I knew there are "active" adapters but I didn`t find out what that
actually means and thought it might have to do with supplying power to
the device.

I don`t /have/ to use PS/2, but I /want/ to use PS/2.  USB devices must
be polled, which makes them slow.  Using USB for this has only
disadvantages, with the only exception that the devices can be
hotplugged.

>> And what are virtual keyboards for, and why do I supposedly have two
>> power buttons?
>
> The XTEST devices allow for the X server to be tested/used without
> real hardware:
> http://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/libXtst/xtestlib.html
> (While the interface may have been built for testing purposes, I
> wouldn't be surprised if it is used for other reasons these days, like
> virtual desktop software.)

Some software like vnc seems to require it ... I`ll have to see what
happens what I disable all the testing extensions; there doesn`t seem to
be an easy way to disable only XTEST.

> Power buttons are implemented as "keyboards" because X has no better
> way to let your desktop environment know you've pressed it, seeing as
> how it dates back to the days where most computers had actual switches
> that really cut power immediately.
>
> As for why you have two, some motherboards have two plugs for them, or
> a special little internal power buttons on the motherboards
> themselves, or are just poorly engineered and say they have two when
> they really have one.  :-)

Ah, yes, my board has a power button on it.  I never use that and forgot
about it ...

Thank you for all your explanations, that was really helpful! :)


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uefi: What if ...?

[lee]

Hi,

what if I got a new mainboard which uses uefi --- and might not even
support disabling or not using uefi --- and wanted to boot?

Booting is from a HP smart array P800.  Would that work?  Would I need
to do something to get it to work, and if so, what?


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Re: uefi: What if ...?

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

> On May 26, 2014, at 4:09 PM, lee  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> what if I got a new mainboard which uses uefi --- and might not even
>> support disabling or not using uefi --- and wanted to boot?
>> 
>> Booting is from a HP smart array P800.  Would that work?  Would I need
>> to do something to get it to work, and if so, what?
>
> I think you'd have to ask HP about whether there's UEFI driver support on the 
> P800. If not, then I'd expect the firmware won't see it at boot time. Maybe 
> the kernel driver for the P800 will see it after booting, however, I'm not 
> sure.

It needs special drivers for all the installed hardware?

My current board, without uefi, supports it as is, and I can only expect
to do at least as good or better from a new one ...

> As for the partition scheme and bootloader installation and bootloader
> configuration files, those are completely different between BIOS and
> UEFI systems. It's much easier to tell you to just reinstall the
> system than to explain how to do an in place conversion.

Well, I definitely do not want to re-install.  Aren`t there any
conversion tools?

> The gist would be to boot from the new computer, using rescue mode,
> [...]

Thank you for the explanation!  It sounds easier than re-installing ...

> The trick will be whether the firmware sees the array in the pre-boot
> UEFI environment.

A board that doesn`t would be pretty useless.

> If not, then it might be possible to do this with a small boot drive,
> even a USB stick, with an ESP and a boot partition containing the
> kernel and initramfs, while the root file system remains on the array
> to complete the start up process.

And that defeats the purpose of RAID.

Considering the problems and security issues involved, I can only hope
that this uefi crap will be replaced with something decent sooner than
later and try to sit it out in the meantime.


BTW, how do people deal with the security issues uefi introduces, like
by running it`s own network stuff to potentially undermine firewalls and
transmit data uncontrollably?


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Installing with F20 installer report (and failure)

[lee]

This is a bit long:


installation on a laptop:

boot live system and select install to disk

The screen brightness is adjustable by only two steps and the screen is
way too bright at almost maximum.

The built-in dedicated graphics card is not used but not switched off,
either.  The resulting power drain would make it impossible to complete
the installation on battery power.

Language selection is confusing because you have to discover the
Continue button, which is located out of sight far off at the right edge
of the screen.

Tapping on the scratchpad doesn`t have any effect (should simulate a
mouse click).  Scrolling with two fingers doesn`t work, either.  At
least the scratchpad is working (fortunately, it does have buttons).

Keyboard selection should be a step within language selection rather
than an extra step.

Network configuration doesn`t have any way to enter the IP address.


Installation Destination ...  The disks show up, but how the hell do I
create a software raid-1 from them??  There are no options to do
anything like that.  Well, I`ve selected the disks now, which is pretty
weird and confusing.  I want to create a raid and not select them.

Why is the Done button so inconveniently placed at the left top of the
screen?  Why not out of sight like the Continue button, or better, under
the "Add a disk" button ...

The installer claims I have 659.36GB of free space, which is
incorrect. The disks I have selected are shown as 715.40GB each (which
is about right), which makes 1430.8GB and not 659.36GB.

Why is LVM a default "Partition scheme" (whatever that means)?  I have
no use for lvm.

Let`s say "I want more space" ... and "Standard Partition" (whatever
that is) and "Encrypt my data and set a passphrase later".

Continue and I`m asked for a passphrase!  That was supposed to happen
LATER, not NOW ...  So enter a passphrase ...  Now I can either "Cancel"
or "Save Passphrase".  Seriously?  Where is my passphrase saved?  I
suppose I could as well write it on a sticker and glue it to the monitor
...

Hm, ok delete all partitions.  Now I could begin the installation.  But
how do I install on software raid-1??  Why can`t I do that and partition
the disks after I deleted all partitions?  Is the installation now going
to proceed without partitions?

So select a destination again ... and to review/modify the partitions.
Now it`s asking me a passphrase again --- wasn`t that saved?  There are
dots in the entry fields, so which passphrase is it using?  Better enter
that again ... and save it to where ever :(

Now I can apparently create mount points.  Why would I create mount
points before making a raid and before creating partitions??  Why can`t
I just press the + key rather having to click the + button?

I don`t like this installer ...

Hm, now I can only create a mount point but no raid :(  It says at the
bottom that two storage devices are selected, which looks like a link.
And when I click on it, it shows two disks in a window, one of them is
marked as "Boot".

Why can`t change that?  I don`t want to boot from that disk ... So
perhaps let`s make two small partitions to be mounted as /boot, one of
which is going to be a mirror of the other.  Perhaps the installer then
finally lets me create a raid-1 ...

Hmm ... let`s make that 512M ...  There we go, finally I can say that
this partition is supposed to be RAID --- which probably doesn`t work
anyway, but since it`s allowed, I make it RAID-1 with ext4.

+ swap 64GB:  Is that going to be on the raid or what?  It says sda2, so
apparently not :(  Now fiddle around to get the swap on the raid
... which seems actually easy to do, same as with /boot.

+ /usr, 16GB, RAID, ext4, encrypt

Now why does the swap partition displayed after /usr rather than before
it where I put it???  Anyway ...

+ /usr/local, 8GB, RAID, ext4, encrypt --- why does the cursor disappear
when pressing the Tab key rather going into the "Capacity" field?  Why
does nothing happen when I press Return after entering "8G"?

Strange, the available disk space on the left disk is decreasing while
the it stays the same on the right one.  Where is it going to put the
raid?

+ /var, 512GB, RAID, ext4, encrypted
+ /home, 8GB, RAID, ext4, encrypted


That`s ok so far, I`m done. ...

WOW!  The settings I made are going to destroy devices!  They don`t only
destroy data and partitions, they actually destroy devices.  Should I
accept that?

Let`s see ...  Hm, why is it asking me for the passphrase again?  At
least typing it so many times helps me to remember it.

But now there is an error with checking the storage configuration.
Hm. Ah, hm, I don`t have defined a root partition.  Modify Storage
Layout ...

Ugh.  Do I seriously have to start all over again??  :

Great, I must enter the passphrase again ...  What was it saved for
earlier?  Or wasn`t it?

But at least I don`t need to start over with the partitioning :)

+ /, 8GB, RAID, ext4, encrypted --- that the Tab key doesn`t work is
really annoyi

Re: Installing with F20 installer report (and failure)

[lee]

Sudhir Khanger  writes:

> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 08:24:09 PM lee wrote:

>> The built-in dedicated graphics card is not used but not switched off,
>> either.  The resulting power drain would make it impossible to complete
>> the installation on battery power.
>> 
>
> Because the dual graphic card support came in later Kernels than the one 
> shipped with Fedora 20.

Hm, are such cards going to be supported soon?  So far, I haven`t been
able to use it at all because when I switch, there is no output to the
screen anymore.

>> Language selection is confusing because you have to discover the
>> Continue button, which is located out of sight far off at the right edge
>> of the screen.
>> 
> ...
>> 
>> Why is the Done button so inconveniently placed at the left top of the
>> screen?  Why not out of sight like the Continue button, or better, under
>> the "Add a disk" button ...
>> 
> ...
>> I don`t like this installer ...
>
> I concur. I certainly don't like the work flow of Anaconda where you have 
> continue button on top-left corner. It breaks the intuitive linear flow that 
> you would expect from an installer. It feels like going one step forward and 
> two step backwards. I certainly don't prefer an ugly GTK+ installer to 
> install 
> Fedora KDE.

After all, I think it`s little things that might be improved over time.
And the installer really has become much better already.

More importantly, the system doesn`t boot.  Any ideas how to install
Fedora with the setup I described so that it boots, or how to get it to
boot?


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Re: Installing with F20 installer report (and failure)

[lee]

Sudhir Khanger  writes:

> On Thursday, May 29, 2014 02:19:55 PM lee wrote:
>> Sudhir Khanger  writes:
>> > On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 08:24:09 PM lee wrote:
>> >> The built-in dedicated graphics card is not used but not switched off,
>> >> either.  The resulting power drain would make it impossible to complete
>> >> the installation on battery power.
>> > 
>> > Because the dual graphic card support came in later Kernels than the one
>> > shipped with Fedora 20.
>> 
>> Hm, are such cards going to be supported soon?  So far, I haven`t been
>> able to use it at all because when I switch, there is no output to the
>> screen anymore.
>> 
>
> Recent Kernels do support power management to turn off dedicated graphic 
> cards. It being able to automagically switch graphic card for GPU load is a 
> long shot at the moment.

If would already help if I could switch manually.

> Nouveau doesn't even work on my system. It floods my system with messages [1] 
> which makes it impossible to get to the desktop. I use Nvidia binary drivers 
> through Bumblebee which works fine.

It`s some ATI card in this case.  Perhaps the drivers would work, but
there won`t be any point when nothing is displayed ...

>> More importantly, the system doesn`t boot.  Any ideas how to install
>> Fedora with the setup I described so that it boots, or how to get it to
>> boot?
>
> The docs tell me it is quite possible to create RAID partition using Anaconda.
>
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/20/html/Installation_Guide/Create_Software_RAID-x86.html
>
>  
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/17/html/Installation_Guide/Create_Software_RAID-x86.html

It was possible to create them --- or least to tell the installer to do
so.  Since it doesn`t boot, I don`t know what was actually done.

>>Why is LVM a default "Partition scheme" (whatever that means)?  I have
>>no use for lvm.
>
>>Let`s say "I want more space" ... and "Standard Partition" (whatever
>>that is) and "Encrypt my data and set a passphrase later".
>
> Why do you want to use RAID-1 when you say that you have no idea what LVM or 
> even Standard Partitions are?

I`m not saying that I have no idea what LVM is, only that I don`t have
use for it.  And the installer doesn`t say what it means by "standard
partitions".  I want to use raid because I don`t store data on a single
disk only.

> And same goes for employing full-disk encryption. If you don't know
> what to do with passphrase, you will inevitably use your data
> permanently and blame Fedora.

I`m not saying that I don`t know what to do with it.  Why do I have to
enter the passphrase like 10 times?  Why does the installer want to save
it, and where?

Anyway, I want to use the system.  Since Fedora fails and there aren`t
any ideas about getting it to work, it seems I have to install something
else.


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Re: Installing with F20 installer report (and failure)

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

> On May 29, 2014, at 6:19 AM, lee  wrote:
>> 
>> More importantly, the system doesn`t boot.  Any ideas how to install
>> Fedora with the setup I described so that it boots, or how to get it to
>> boot?
>
> There are more than 10,000 reasons why a system won't boot. So you're going 
> to have to tell us what does happen rather than what doesn't happen.

In the lengthy installation report, I told you exactly what I did and
what happened.

Hm, perhaps I could configure the network card from the console, if
there is one, and get so far as to be able make a video of the
installation --- provided that network manager doesn`t mess up such a
configuration.  But who`s going to watch that?  And it won`t show how
the system doesn`t boot ...


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Re: Installing with F20 installer report (and failure)

[lee]

Stephen Morris  writes:

> Hi Lee,
> Just my 2 cents worth, the dot you are seeing on the top left of
> the screen is displayed just before the grub boot menu is displayed,
> which as the menu is not displayed means that the system can't find
> grub.cfg which is in /boot/grub2. I haven't tried playing around with
> software raid much, which also leads to the question of why raid1
> which is mirroring rather than raid0 which is striping and provides
> more disk space availability, but I digress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

> I thought that support for software raid was implemented in kernel
> modules, which if correct, the kernel is in /boot, which I thought you
> said was a raid device, hence how does it load the drivers to support
> raid from a raid device before it has the drivers, if you know what I
> mean, which would also explain why it can't load grub.cfg.

Yes, I`ve been thinking that.  Yet:


1: When the system cannot boot when /boot is on a software raid, the
   installer should give you a warning and an explanation.

2: I have had a Debian installation running with /boot on software raid-1
   just fine for years.


As to 2: If the installer created the /boot partition correctly and
unless the md tools changed significantly in the way they deal with
raid-1 partitions, grub is able to read from that partition even though
it might just read from only one of the drives.

Thirdly, what are the mdraid* modules in /boot/grub2/i386-pc/ for?
"Grub 2 supports Linux mdraid volumes natively."[1]  So either there is
a problem in the installer, or grub2 doesn`t support mdraid.


[1]: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/17481/grub2-raid-boot

> I know its a pain, but I would try reinstalling again and configuring
> your devices with /boot as non-raid, and configuring everything else
> as raid.

Well, either someone knows a solution, or I try to fix the problem with
a rescue/life system, or I install something else.  I might give centos
a try because I think I might actually get a server sooner or later
(which is likely to be some proliant --- which would put some sense to
using centos --- despite HP can`t even deliver a replacement battery for
a UPS ... ).  I`d have tried mint, but my USB stick holds only 1GB and
their installer is 1.2GB.  Or perhaps I`ll try gentoo ...


The only reason I tried Fedora is because it`s still on my computer and
the installer fits on my USB stick.  Since, in the context of
Fedora.next, it has been established in this mailing list that
developers of Fedora don`t care at all what users of Fedora think and
the Fedora project nonetheless feels that they shall be positioned to
lead the advancement of OSS, without caring, using Fedora is a pretty
moot point for me:  That they happen to make a good distribution is
obviously a random side effect which can go away any time.

So I`m merely giving some feedback here.  This is one way to contribute
(which will probably be ignored anyway).  A while ago someone here
seemed to be interested in why ppl who are using Linux are not using
Fedora ...


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Re: Installing with F20 installer report (and failure)

[lee]

Chris Murphy  writes:

> On May 29, 2014, at 12:29 PM, lee  wrote:
>> I`m not saying that I have no idea what LVM is, only that I don`t have
>> use for it.  
>
> But whatever, if you know what it is, and you know that you don't need
> it, you don't really have much reason to just advertise that you don't
> need it. It's not really going to do much good in this forum (just
> like the above paragraph of mine), there are other forums for that.

I`m merely giving some feedback.  I know, ppl wanted bug reports --- and
I can still compile all the mails in this thread and put them into a bug
report.  That bug reports aren`t suited in this case has been
persistently ignored.

>> And the installer doesn`t say what it means by "standard
>> partitions".  
>
> It means "don't use LVM" it just uses plain partitions for each chosen mount 
> point in the installer.

That is left to be guessed by the user.

>> I want to use raid because I don`t store data on a single
>> disk only.
>
> RAID1/Mirroring in the Fedora installer translates to md raid. It will
> support existing IMSM (Intel firmware initiated RAID), also via
> md. The md driver is part of the kernel, and the user space tool is
> mdadm.

Are you saying the installer would secretly use some Intel fake-raid
onboard-controller if it`s available?  That is pretty much the last
thing I would want to use.

>>> And same goes for employing full-disk encryption. If you don't know
>>> what to do with passphrase, you will inevitably use your data
>>> permanently and blame Fedora.
>> 
>> I`m not saying that I don`t know what to do with it.  Why do I have to
>> enter the passphrase like 10 times?  Why does the installer want to save
>> it, and where?
>
> If it asks for a passphrase on more than one page (two times on the
> same page, the 2nd one is a confirmation) then you've probably run
> into a bug or confusing design.

It`s been asking for a passphrase together with confirmation many
times. The entry fields were full of dots after the first time, so there
is no way to tell what passphrase it might use.  So obviously, you have
to enter the passphrase every time you`re being asked.

It doesn`t even give you choice to not save the passphrase.

> With Fedora 19 for example it was possible to inadvertently create
> encrypted partitions, which became LVM PVs, and then you could also
> separately encrypt each LV. So you were getting double
> encryption. This logic was fixed in Fedora 20 but you might still be
> running into some confusing UI, but it shouldn't let you actually
> create a layout with double encryption.

Since the system doesn`t boot, I haven`t checked for this ...

> In any case, almost no one is going to understand what you're talking
> about unless you either write out discrete steps, maybe annotated with
> screen shots. Or better (and easier) if you can make a video of it.

Where would I store screenshots or a video when I can`t even enter an IP
address to configure the network, which might give me a chance to store
files somewhere?  Recording a video that goes for an hour or two doesn`t
exactly create only a small file.  And does the installer come with some
screen recording software?

So I wrote down the steps I took.

>> Anyway, I want to use the system.  Since Fedora fails and there aren`t
>> any ideas about getting it to work, it seems I have to install something
>> else.
>
> I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts no one even understands exactly
> how it's failing. That is it failing isn't specific enough, like I
> said earlier there are thousands of ways an OS can fail to boot or
> startup.

You can try it for yourself, doing the same steps I did.  And I haven`t
touched it yet, so if you can tell me exactly what information you need,
I might be able to boot a live/rescue system and obtain it.

> A good starting point for troubleshooting is to edit the boot menu
> entry in grub (use e to edit) and find the linux line, and remove rhgb
> quiet.

There is no boot menu.  I`d have to boot a live/rescue system to do
that.

> That's a one time thing, the next time you boot those options will be
> back in there so if you need to keep troubleshooting you have to
> remove them each time.

Where`s this line coming from?  "rhgb" isn`t anywhere the grub.cfg on my
computer.

> Another idea if this might be video card related is to try adding the
> option nomodeset. And then take a photo with a cell phone where the
> text scrolling stops and put it up somewhere.

There is no text scrolling, and it`s a pita to get any data off or onto
my cell phone, if possible at all.  And does anyone really need a
picture to understand that, when trying to boot, there`s 

Re: Adding minimal X windows

[lee]

Matthew Saltzman  writes:

> I built a Fedora 20 system as a server, without a desktop.  It turns
> out, no X server is installed at all in that case.  I'd like to add a
> minimal X server without adding a complete desktop environment, so I can
> log in remotely and run system configuration tools.
> [...]
>
> What's the best way to get just a basic X server in Fedora 20?

Xvnc from the tigervnc-server-minimal package might be nice for this
purpose.


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disabling graphical boot and shutdown in Fedora 17

[lee]

Hi,

how do I turn off all the graphical booting and shutting down?

What I want is *not* to start any X session when I boot or shutodwn.
When booting, I want to end up at the console, and I want to use startx
to start an X session from there after logging in.

When shutting down from the console, a graphical screen appears showing
the Fedora logo.  That's really silly and I'd like to turn that off ---
but how?
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emails, selinux and Fedora 17

[lee]

Hi,

it seems that selinux gets in the way of my self-compiled emacs when
gnus is trying to get mails from /var/spool/mail/lee.  Movemail isn't
permitted to get the mail from there.  I have tried to adjust the file
permissions on movemail, and it's like this now:


-bash-4.2$ ls -laZ 
/usr/local/libexec/emacs/24.2.50/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/movemail
-rwxr-xr-x. root root system_u:object_r:bin_t:s0   
/usr/local/libexec/emacs/24.2.50/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/movemail
-bash-4.2$ ls -laZ /usr/libexec/emacs/24.1/x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu/movemail
-rwxr-xr-x. root root system_u:object_r:bin_t:s0   
/usr/libexec/emacs/24.1/x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu/movemail


The version of emacs that is in Fedora works, though I'd rather use my
self-compiled version because there have been bug fixes to gnus which
might not be in emacs 24.1.

What am I missing?


I'm used to have exim delivering mail into ~/Maildir in maildir format,
and since that doesn't work with selinux anymore, I have adjusted my
exim configuration to deliver to /var/spool/mail/ instead.  In the
exim configuration section that specifies the routers, I had to set
"group = mail" for those routers that end up making local deliveries to
work around permission problems.  Is that the way it's supposed to be?


So far, that works fine, and I'm not sure if I want to go back to
delivering into users home directories.  Now I'm wondering if all the
services are set up correctly since I'm also using clamd to scan for
viruses:

Will freshclam be run automatically, or do I need to set up a cron job
for it?


Is there some documentation about selinux in Fedora that would give me
better understanding?  I've switched from Debian to Fedora yesterday and
didn't use selinux with Debian.  Now with Fedora, selinux is somewhat
getting in the way, but I don't want to just turn it off.
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Re: disabling graphical boot and shutdown in Fedora 17

[lee]

Kevin Martin  writes:

> I'm thinking it's dumb that one can *switch* to a runlevel using
> systemctl but can't *set the default runlevel* using systemctl
> enable/disable.

I was wondering when I changed the default.target by removing the old
link and creating a new one if that is really the way we are supposed to
do this.  It would make a lot more sense to me if there was some
controlling command (like systemctl) to change the default.target with.

Perhaps that's worth a feature request?
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rights messed up after moving installation

[lee]

Hi,

I have experienced some trouble with moving my Fedora installation to
different partitions.  For the move, I prepared the target partitions,
created file systems on them and booted the emergency.target.  Then I
used "rsync --archive -H --progress -x  " to copy /var and /.

I thought using the "--archive" option of rsync is supposed to transfer
all attributes?

Then I bind mounted /proc, /sys and /dev to the appropriate directories
on the new root file system and chrooted into it.  From there, I mounted
the new file systems, adjusted /etc/fstab and installed grub2 and
created a new grub2.cf. grub2-mkconfig had some trouble with creating
files in /var/lock, yet it created the new configuration, and I was able
to boot into the moved installation.

For some reason, /var couldn't be mounted, and I ran "restorecon -v -R"
on it, which reset a lot (probably all) files.  After rebooting, /var
could be mounted, but I was unable to log in:  I got the login prompt
and after entering my password, I got logged out again immediately.

So I booted the emergency.target again and mounted all file systems
except /home.  After running "restorecon -v -R /", I rebooted and am now
able to log in.

Some rights are still messed up, though.  The "users" command doesn't
produce any output, and pulseaudio doesn't run anymore.  There are
messages in /var/log/messages about this:


Nov  5 21:50:38 yun dbus-daemon[807]: dbus[807]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'net.reactivated.Fprint'
Nov  5 21:50:38 yun dbus[807]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'net.reactivated.Fprint'
Nov  5 21:50:38 yun dbus-daemon[807]: ** Message: D-Bus service launched with 
name: net.reactivated.Fprint
Nov  5 21:50:38 yun dbus-daemon[807]: ** Message: entering main loop
Nov  5 21:50:52 yun systemd-logind[775]: New session 1 of user lee.
Nov  5 21:51:08 yun dbus-daemon[807]: ** Message: No devices in use, exit
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun dbus-daemon[807]: dbus[807]: [system] Activating via 
systemd: service name='org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1' unit='rtkit-daemon.service'
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun dbus[807]: [system] Activating via systemd: service 
name='org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1' unit='rtkit-daemon.service'
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun dbus-daemon[807]: dbus[807]: [system] Successfully 
activated service 'org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1'
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun dbus[807]: [system] Successfully activated service 
'org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1'
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun dbus-daemon[807]: dbus[807]: [system] Rejected send 
message, 2 matched rules; type="method_call", sender=":1.22" (uid=1000 pid=1278 
comm="/usr/bin/pulseaudio --start --log-target=syslog ") 
interface="org.bluez.Manager" member="ListAdapters" error name
="(unset)" requested_reply="0" destination="org.bluez" (uid=0 pid=685 
comm="/usr/sbin/bluetoothd -n ")
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun dbus[807]: [system] Rejected send message, 2 matched rules; 
type="method_call", sender=":1.22" (uid=1000 pid=1278 comm="/usr/bin/pulseaudio 
--start --log-target=syslog ") interface="org.bluez.Manager" 
member="ListAdapters" error name="(unset)" request
ed_reply="0" destination="org.bluez" (uid=0 pid=685 comm="/usr/sbin/bluetoothd 
-n ")
Nov  5 21:51:27 yun pulseaudio[1278]: [pulseaudio] bluetooth-util.c: Error from 
ListAdapters reply: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.AccessDenied


When I run "aplay -l" as normal user, it says "no soundcards found".
When I run it as root, it does list the soundcard.  The needed modules
are loaded, and when root tries to play some sound with aplay, it says
that pulseaudio refuses the connection.  Since pulseaudio isn't running,
that isn't surprising :)

Surprising is that when the normal user plays something with aplay,
aplay says it's playing and there is no sound.


So some --- or a lot of --- rights may be messed up now.  That the
"users" command doesn't give any output indicates that things might be
messed up pretty badly.  How do I fix this?

I still have the original I made the copy from, so if there is a way to
"transfer" rights by reading them from the original and applying them to
the copy, that might be a way to fix it.  Please tell me I don't need to
re-install ...
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Re: disabling graphical boot and shutdown in Fedora 17

[lee]

Reindl Harald  writes:

> Am 05.11.2012 10:40, schrieb lee:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> how do I turn off all the graphical booting and shutting down?
>> 
>> What I want is *not* to start any X session when I boot or shutodwn.
>> When booting, I want to end up at the console, and I want to use startx
>> to start an X session from there after logging in.
>
> change the "default.target" symlink
>
> [root@arrakis:/etc/systemd/system]$ ls | grep default
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   36 2011-05-28 20:13 default.target -> 
> /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target
>
>> When shutting down from the console, a graphical screen appears showing
>> the Fedora logo.  That's really silly and I'd like to turn that off ---
>> but how?
>
> remove "quiet" and "rhgb" from the grub-config

Thank you, changing the target and removing these boot parameters solved
the problem! :)
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Re: emails, selinux and Fedora 17

[lee]

Daniel J Walsh  writes:

> On 11/05/2012 04:35 AM, lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> it seems that selinux gets in the way of my self-compiled emacs when gnus
>> is trying to get mails from /var/spool/mail/lee.  Movemail isn't permitted
>> to get the mail from there.  I have tried to adjust the file permissions on
>> movemail, and it's like this now:
>> 
>> 
>> -bash-4.2$ ls -laZ
>> /usr/local/libexec/emacs/24.2.50/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/movemail 
>> -rwxr-xr-x. root root system_u:object_r:bin_t:s0
>> /usr/local/libexec/emacs/24.2.50/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/movemail 
>> -bash-4.2$ ls -laZ
>> /usr/libexec/emacs/24.1/x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu/movemail -rwxr-xr-x. root
>> root system_u:object_r:bin_t:s0
>> /usr/libexec/emacs/24.1/x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu/movemail
>> 
>> 
>> The version of emacs that is in Fedora works, though I'd rather use my 
>> self-compiled version because there have been bug fixes to gnus which might
>> not be in emacs 24.1.
>> 
>> What am I missing?
>
> Please attach the AVC Messages.
>
> ausearch -m avc -ts recent

That shows no matches.  "ausearch -m avc" shows a lot of messages, the
last one being:


time->Mon Nov  5 21:34:33 2012
type=SYSCALL msg=audit(1352147673.756:131): arch=c03e syscall=59 success=no 
exit=-13 a0=238867e a1=7fff1f776498 a2=23909b0 a3=6 items=0 ppid=976 pid=1001 
auid=1000 uid=1000 gid=1000 euid=1000 suid=1000 fsuid=1000 egid=1000 sgid=1000 
fsgid=1000 tty=tty1 ses=6 comm="login" exe="/usr/bin/login" 
subj=system_u:system_r:kernel_t:s0 key=(null)
type=AVC msg=audit(1352147673.756:131): avc:  denied  { entrypoint } for  
pid=1001 comm="login" path="/usr/bin/bash" dev="cciss!c0d0p2" ino=1310967 
scontext=unconfined_u:system_r:abrt_helper_t:s0-s0:c0.c1023 
tcontext=system_u:object_r:file_t:s0 tclass=file


There don't seem to be any messages mentioning movemail: "ausearch -m
all |grep movemail" returns nothing.  I can't try it again atm because I
moved the installation to a different disk and didn't keep /usr/local
where the self-compiled emacs was installed.  The move caused more
problems with rights and I better fix those first ...
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Re: rights messed up after moving installation

[lee]

Steven Stern  writes:

> From the man page:
>
> -a, --archive   archive mode; equals -rlptgoD (no -H,-A,-X)
>
> So, you need to use "--archive -X" to transfer selinux context info as
> well as the other attributes.

Ugh ... darn ... What do I do now?  Files on /var have been modified
in the meantime; I could run rsync on / again.  That should be possible
while it's mounted.

What will rsync do?  Only change the info because the file content
hasn't changed?

Isn't there a better way to fix this?
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Re: rights messed up after moving installation

[lee]

Daniel J Walsh  writes:

> On 11/05/2012 05:07 PM, lee wrote:
>> Steven Stern  writes:
>> 
>>> From the man page:
>>> 
>>> -a, --archive   archive mode; equals -rlptgoD (no -H,-A,-X)
>>> 
>>> So, you need to use "--archive -X" to transfer selinux context info as 
>>> well as the other attributes.
>> 
>> Ugh ... darn ... What do I do now?  Files on /var have been modified in the
>> meantime; I could run rsync on / again.  That should be possible while it's
>> mounted.
>> 
>> What will rsync do?  Only change the info because the file content hasn't
>> changed?
>> 
>> Isn't there a better way to fix this?
>> 
>
> I have not got the full information, but running restorecon on the data will
> probably fix the file contexts.

The context is that I moved the root file system and /var from one disk
to another with insufficient options to rsync.  I have already run
restorecon which enabled me to log in again.  Something is still wrong
because pulseaudio doesn't run anymore and the "users" command produces
no output.

What if I run "yum reinstall *"?  Re-installing all packages should fix
the rights, shouldn't it?
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Re: emails, selinux and Fedora 17

[lee]

Daniel J Walsh  writes:

> On 11/05/2012 04:59 PM, lee wrote:
>> Daniel J Walsh  writes:
>> 
>>> On 11/05/2012 04:35 AM, lee wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> it seems that selinux gets in the way of my self-compiled emacs when
>>>> gnus is trying to get mails from /var/spool/mail/lee.  Movemail isn't
>>>> permitted to get the mail from there.  I have tried to adjust the file
>>>> permissions on movemail, and it's like this now:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -bash-4.2$ ls -laZ 
>>>> /usr/local/libexec/emacs/24.2.50/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/movemail 
>>>> -rwxr-xr-x. root root system_u:object_r:bin_t:s0 
>>>> /usr/local/libexec/emacs/24.2.50/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/movemail 
>>>> -bash-4.2$ ls -laZ 
>>>> /usr/libexec/emacs/24.1/x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu/movemail -rwxr-xr-x.
>>>> root root system_u:object_r:bin_t:s0 
>>>> /usr/libexec/emacs/24.1/x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu/movemail
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The version of emacs that is in Fedora works, though I'd rather use my
>>>>  self-compiled version because there have been bug fixes to gnus which
>>>> might not be in emacs 24.1.
>>>> 
>>>> What am I missing?
>>> 
>>> Please attach the AVC Messages.
>>> 
>>> ausearch -m avc -ts recent
>> 
>> That shows no matches.  "ausearch -m avc" shows a lot of messages, the last
>> one being:
>> 
>> 
>> time->Mon Nov  5 21:34:33 2012 type=SYSCALL msg=audit(1352147673.756:131):
>> arch=c03e syscall=59 success=no exit=-13 a0=238867e a1=7fff1f776498
>> a2=23909b0 a3=6 items=0 ppid=976 pid=1001 auid=1000 uid=1000 gid=1000
>> euid=1000 suid=1000 fsuid=1000 egid=1000 sgid=1000 fsgid=1000 tty=tty1
>> ses=6 comm="login" exe="/usr/bin/login" subj=system_u:system_r:kernel_t:s0
>> key=(null) type=AVC msg=audit(1352147673.756:131): avc:  denied  {
>> entrypoint } for  pid=1001 comm="login" path="/usr/bin/bash"
>> dev="cciss!c0d0p2" ino=1310967
>> scontext=unconfined_u:system_r:abrt_helper_t:s0-s0:c0.c1023
>> tcontext=system_u:object_r:file_t:s0 tclass=file
>> 
>> 
>> There don't seem to be any messages mentioning movemail: "ausearch -m all
>> |grep movemail" returns nothing.  I can't try it again atm because I moved
>> the installation to a different disk and didn't keep /usr/local where the
>> self-compiled emacs was installed.  The move caused more problems with
>> rights and I better fix those first ...
>> 
>
>
> file_t means you have a file or file system without labels.  You need to fix
> the labeling on your machine.

Labels?

> touch /.autorelabel; reboot
>
> Will label the entire machine.  If you just put a disk in from another machine
> you could just run restorecon on that disk.

Yes, /usr/local and /home have been taken over from Debian.  Hmm, there
is also "fixfiles" ...  That could take a while because I have almost
600k files on /home --- but I'll try it, might be my best option with
rights messed up now.

Will they be labled correctly automatically from now on?  Like when I
compile and install something on /usr/local, do I need to somehow set
the labels or don't I have to worry about it?
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Re: emails, selinux and Fedora 17

[lee]

lee  writes:

> Daniel J Walsh  writes:
>
>> On 11/05/2012 04:59 PM, lee wrote:
>>> Daniel J Walsh  writes:
>>> 
>>>> On 11/05/2012 04:35 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> it seems that selinux gets in the way of my self-compiled emacs when
>>>>> gnus is trying to get mails from /var/spool/mail/lee.  Movemail isn't
>>>>> permitted to get the mail from there.
>>
>> file_t means you have a file or file system without labels.  You need to fix
>> the labeling on your machine.
>
> Labels?
>
>> touch /.autorelabel; reboot
>>
>> Will label the entire machine.  If you just put a disk in from another 
>> machine
>> you could just run restorecon on that disk.
>
> Yes, /usr/local and /home have been taken over from Debian.  Hmm, there
> is also "fixfiles" ...  That could take a while because I have almost
> 600k files on /home --- but I'll try it, might be my best option with
> rights messed up now.
>
> Will they be labled correctly automatically from now on?  Like when I
> compile and install something on /usr/local, do I need to somehow set
> the labels or don't I have to worry about it?

Commenting myself:  I autorelabeled and sound and the "users" command
work again.  So I guess that does fix problems like with movemail, too.

Thank you for your help!  This list is awesome :)
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Re: rights messed up after moving installation

[lee]

lee  writes:

> Daniel J Walsh  writes:
>
>> On 11/05/2012 05:07 PM, lee wrote:
>>> Steven Stern  writes:
>>> 
>>>> From the man page:
>>>> 
>>>> -a, --archive   archive mode; equals -rlptgoD (no -H,-A,-X)
>>>> 
>>>> So, you need to use "--archive -X" to transfer selinux context info as 
>>>> well as the other attributes.
>>> 
>>> Ugh ... darn ... What do I do now?  Files on /var have been modified in the
>>> meantime; I could run rsync on / again.  That should be possible while it's
>>> mounted.
>>> 
>>> What will rsync do?  Only change the info because the file content hasn't
>>> changed?
>>> 
>>> Isn't there a better way to fix this?
>>> 
>>
>> I have not got the full information, but running restorecon on the data will
>> probably fix the file contexts.
>
> The context is that I moved the root file system and /var from one disk
> to another with insufficient options to rsync.  I have already run
> restorecon which enabled me to log in again.  Something is still wrong
> because pulseaudio doesn't run anymore and the "users" command produces
> no output.
>
> What if I run "yum reinstall *"?  Re-installing all packages should fix
> the rights, shouldn't it?

A "touch /.autorelabel ; reboot" fixed this :))


Now I'm used to login on the console and to run "startx & logout", and
when I do that, I don't have sound in the X-session.  When I only do
"startx &" without logging out, I do have sound.

Is there a way to fix that so that I can still have sound in the
X-session while I'm logged out from the console?
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how do I get squid 2.7 to run?

[lee]

Hi,

selinux prevents squid 2.7 from running.  What do I need to do to get it
to work?  This selinux is really a PITA ... does it do any good at all?
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Re: rights messed up after moving installation

[lee]

Reindl Harald  writes:

> Am 05.11.2012 23:19, schrieb lee:
>> The context is that I moved the root file system and /var from one disk
>> to another with insufficient options to rsync.
>
> BTW:
> usually rsync deals really fine with doing a second run with other
> options like "--times --perms --owner --group..." if you did not
> the first time

Yeah I had in mind that rsync would do what I wanted, and I used it on
Debian like that before and it did.  I should have looked at the manpage
in Fedora more thoroughly.

Actually, I was expecting that I do might have to re-install after
trying things out for a few days, and now it looks as if I won't need to
do that :)  Now that mostly everything is working fine, I have begun to
read more of the available documentation for Fedora and need to read
more over the next few days.  Though I'm using all the same software I'm
used to from Debian, many important things seem to be much different.

> rsync never will transmit unchanged data again because it wroks
> like diff -

Are you sure?

> i am using the following script for any copy/backup
> even if it is single file because the params are what i really
> mean: "copy files and folders with any attributes and if it is
> a directory i like the target 1:1 compared with the source"
>
> RSYNC_PARAMS is one line!

Thank you!  I'll add it to my collection and check it out before I make
backups and maybe just use it :)
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