Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Am 08.06.2009 um 08:37 schrieb Stephan Hermann: > Mono gives us a good way into the MS front...this could also be a > point > of view. It's interesting to see how some people accuse Mono to be Microsofts inroad into the open source world and others see the inroad of open source into the Microsoft world in the very same piece of software. Shall the freedom win ! Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermann wrote: > Good Morning, > > On Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:36:29 -0400 > Mark Fink wrote: > >> [...removed totally annoying article...] > > As I'm not a MONO Fanboy myself...and sometimes boycott novell does > write good articles...but please... > > Mono gives us a good way into the MS front...this could also be a point > of view. > > And regarding Canonical...I wonder if Mark or Jane hired a lot of MONO > people...I do think they have more python devs on their payrole then > other companies... > > anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu > or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in > the first place. no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also helps adict users to it. > > We can argue about "MS doesn't give us any rights on using it patent > wise" (only to Novell) but this has really nothing to do with MONO...we > have so many sources in our distros, which do have patent issues...why > don't you scream about that? Oh, sorry, you want to watch videos, or > listen to your MP3s...damn I forgot. read boycottnovell, Roy has proven over and over again that MONO is illegal for anyone but microvell. > > So please, power up your brain first... maybe you should. -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
as benfrank said yesterday on boycottnovell: "The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them. Easy as falling over. Not wanting to even discuss such a simple solution makes it credible that Ubuntu is being corrupted by Mono fans. IMono is controversial, and who needs the bloated Mono runtime just to run a few marginal apps? The importance of Mono to Ubuntu is greatly overblown by a small but very determined minority." MONO /is/ controversial, so why are you guys even shipping it? it's only because MONO people have poisoned your minds and infiltrated ubuntu to get power to enforce their will. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Sunday 07 June 2009 7:48:45 pm Mark Fink wrote: >> this is what the MONO developers want you to believe, but no one >> really wants MONO. users still using MONO only do so because they've >> been tricked by miquel & co who worship m$ and will do anything to >> help them destroy linux. > > Hi :) Mono-based application user here. Guess why I use Mono-based apps? > It's not the reason you gave. It's because there happen to exist some very > good Mono-based applications. In the case of Tomboy v. Gnote...well, my > experience dealing with the developers of the two applications along with the > existence of a LaTeX plugin for the Mono one keeps me using Tomboy. F-Spot? > Well, the only thing close is iPhoto, and last I tried iPhoto, F-Spot was more > featureful. > > Now, I'm all for the effort to write better applications in other languages-- > really, better applications in any language. Diversity is good! Competition > is good! Unfortunately, I don't really see anyone stepping up to the plate > with a photo manager that can compete with F-Spot. And Gnote doesn't really > compete with Tomboy--emulation (that misses out on many of the features) isn't > exactly innovation. BasKet and Zim though, I've heard they're very good. > BasKet is for KDE though, and Zim, while very featureful, is also harder to > navigate and asks some rather daunting questions in its Preferences (for > example, full path to preferred text editor)--a fine tool for hackers, but not > something I'd tell my brother to use for taking notes in class. > > Simply: what works well? At the moment, there are a handful of Mono > applications which are the "Best of Breed" in their respective categories. If > you've got some applications up your sleeve that can seriously compete with-- > and beat!--any of the applications in the default Ubuntu install on technical > grounds such as number and quality of useful features and the software's > usability, I'd like to see them. > > -- > Mackenzie Morgan > http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com > apt-get moo > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Hi, On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:49:32 -0400 Mark Fink wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermann > wrote: > > Good Morning, > > > > On Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:36:29 -0400 > > Mark Fink wrote: > > > >> [...removed totally annoying article...] > > > > As I'm not a MONO Fanboy myself...and sometimes boycott novell does > > write good articles...but please... > > > > Mono gives us a good way into the MS front...this could also be a > > point of view. > > > > And regarding Canonical...I wonder if Mark or Jane hired a lot of > > MONO people...I do think they have more python devs on their > > payrole then other companies... > > > > anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into > > Ubuntu or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of > > Windows in the first place. > > no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also > helps adict users to it. Oh well...in the 80ties/90ties when Java was invented and was used by more people then Turbo Pascal in no time, I said the same...It was closed source, and had too much of Sun in it.. > > > > We can argue about "MS doesn't give us any rights on using it patent > > wise" (only to Novell) but this has really nothing to do with > > MONO...we have so many sources in our distros, which do have patent > > issues...why don't you scream about that? Oh, sorry, you want to > > watch videos, or listen to your MP3s...damn I forgot. > > read boycottnovell, Roy has proven over and over again that MONO is > illegal for anyone but microvell. "Boycottnovell" is not the truth of the world...really. I do understand the concerns, and yes, they are all very known...but again...it's your choice to accept the way Ubuntu is doing or your don't...it's your choice. Our Desktop Team choose MONO and some apps as default installation candidates and that was their choice and we live with it...if you can't live with it...then don't use it. Linux is about choice...we choose. Regards, \sh PS: Countdown to Godwins Law? -- | Stephan '\sh' Hermann| OSS Dev / SysAdmin | | JID: s...@linux-server.org | http://www.sourcecode.de/ | | GPG ID: 0xC098EFA8 | http://leonov.tv/ | | FP: 3D8B 5138 0852 DA7A B83F DCCB C189 E733 C098 EFA8 | -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Using functional descriptions for default applications' menu entries
Bug 105685 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bug/105685)
was recently rejected again, on the grounds that "it's not a bug",
despite apparent consensus (from my and another's admittedly biased
perspective) that it is. See previous thread:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/1101
I have four media players installed: MPlayer, Xine, Totem and VLC. I
find all of them wanting from time to time and if one doesn't work,
it's useful to be able to try another. So on my system clearly "Movie
Player" is ambiguous and makes it more difficult to find Totem. (It's
also an Americanism and imprecise since it also plays pure audio - IMO
"video player" or "media player" would be better.) I also find it
galling that GNOME devs apparently think it is OK to say Movie Player
= Totem, as if nothing else in the world deserved the name.
The GNOME bug suggests that items such as "Web Browser" or "Movie
Player" omit the program name because they're the default apps for
that purpose. But this contradicts GNOME's own menu naming conventions
as described in the HIG
(http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/desktop-application-menu.html.en).
In a nutshell, they are:
1. Include a functional description.
2. Don't include redundant or confusing information, like "GNOME" or
(in most cases) "Client".
3. If the app's name is itself descriptive, just use that ("AppName"
and "Description" are the same). If there's no appropriate functional
description (e.g. most games), just use the name ("AppName").
Otherwise use the name followed by the description ("AppName
Description").
Some examples. Apps with descriptive names include GNOME Character
Map, GNOME Terminal, Remote Desktop Viewer, Dictionary, GNOME Sound
Recorder. There are some examples of almost-descriptive names that are
omitted in their menu items, as common sense would suggest: tsclient
"Terminal Server Client", gcalctool "Calculator", gedit "Text Editor".
Apps with non-descriptive names that have descriptions include Tomboy
"Tomboy Notes", Evince "Evince Document Viewer", gThumb "gThumb Image
Viewer", Evolution "Evolution Mail" / "Evolution Mail and Calendar"
(as appropriate for two different submenus). Two apps, Baobab "Disk
Usage Analyser" and Totem "Movie Player", do not include their proper
names, in spite of rule 3 (in the case of Baobab it seems "Disk Usage
Analyser" is actually another official name). I don't think any apps
bundled with GNOME violate rules 1 or 2 (even "Same GNOME", in which
"GNOME" is part of the name).
Under these guidelines there is no reason at all why Totem should have
a menu item saying anything other than "Totem Movie Player" (or my
preference, "Totem Media Player"). The fact that it's GNOME's default
media player doesn't enter the picture. If it did, a lot more apps
would have their names omitted - Firefox/Epiphany, Tomboy, gThumb,
Evolution, etc. That an app is the default is no excuse for hiding its
identity from the user.
[BTW, I'm not subscribed, so please remember to CC me.]
--
Peter Berry
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
> I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. Heck, I only wish his aim were better. I'm seeing only one "troll" here, Mark, and I've seen him before, singing approximately the same song. It hasn't got a beat, and I can't dance to it. Your "message" is, frankly, inane, and the terms in which you couch it are offensive, vituperative and pointless. Take your shock, dismay, shame, umbrage and annoyance elsewhere, please. Thank You For Your Cooperation. Sorry For The Inconvenience. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Linux Plumbers Conference CFP and Inter Distribution Co-Operation track
Hi All, Just a reminder, the plumbers conference (Portland, OR, USA) CFP closes on 15 June 2009: http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/2009/04/lpc-2009-call-for-proposals/ One of the tracks we thought we'd try this year is inter distribution co-operation, so we're looking for any topics you think might be useful to stimulate discussion and co-operation between distributions, and to that end, I thought I'd send an open begging letter for contributions (I'm looking after the track this year, so if you don't want it to be all about Novell distributions, now's your chance to submit something). James -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
> you sound like a typical M$ appologist. do you sleep well at night? > hope they are paying you well. Clearly Mark doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase "personal attack"... Physician, heal thyself. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Jun 8, 2009, at 11:02, "Null Ack" wrote: > > I'm fully prepared to listen to well constructed rational arguments to > the contrary. Based strictly on past experience, I'm not expecting to see them coming from Mark, I'm afraid. If you want to listen to abuse, propaganda, and unsupported accusations, you're in good shape, though! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
> Oh well...in the 80ties/90ties when Java was invented and was used by > more people then Turbo Pascal in no time, I said the same...It was > closed source, and had too much of Sun in it.. > KDE/Qt we should start a wall of fame =D -- With best regards Dmitrijs Ledkovs (for short Dima), Ледков Дмитрий Юрьевич -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Subject: RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Personally, as a programmer, I welcome MONO into the Linux fold. Here's my 2 cents' worth (and they are good old ZA cents, so really not worth all that much...). When I first tried Linux some years ago, it was Debian, the glorious giant upon whose shoulders we Ubuntu users stand. I came from a win32 background and sorely wanted to program on this shiny new Linux machine. I was a very-much junior developer and I loved (still do!) making little utilities that I could use and give away. Problem was that I hadn't learned C or C++ as yet. Python was available but barely beyond what you could do with bash. Perl (*shudder*) made me afraid for my life and the lives of others. Powerful it may be, but Perl is not a friendly language. The whole concept of learning by reading code is very difficult (imo) for someone trying to learn from Perl -- perhaps some of the reason is that Perl programmers revel in their ability to make their code ugly and unreadable. But I digress, and I also apologise if any Perl programmer out here has been offended. Perl just scares me. Now that I have about 7 languages that I regularly use (and some others, including perl, which I can read but prefer to avoid), Linux is a really nice dev platform. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but .NET really took off on win32. There are a plethora of .NET devs who would try a good Linux distro if they can still program their own homebrew apps on it. MONO fills that gap quite nicely (I think, but C# is in the sub-list of "some functionality, but not a pro" with respect to my list of programming utilities). Sure, a lot of the real M$'isms (WPF, for example) aren't in MONO -- and I can't say that I miss 'em, to be honest. Gtk# beats WinForms hands down -- perhaps a win32 dev will see that and Gtk# will gain some more traction under win32? Dunno. The bottom line is that MONO provides a tool for a lot of people who would otherwise not have something that they want in their desktop OS: a development environment. MonoDevelop is a freaking good IDE, and supports standard c/c++ projects now as well! Bravo! I think it boils down to: If you don't want it, apt-get remove it. I personally don't use Beagle or Tracker or whatever. I personally won't use ASP.NET via mod_mono. But I can see how someone else certainly might! As a programmer, it's very frustrating to find a new OS and not be able to create! And the same people that a blathering on about "MONO this" and "MONO that" -- I hope all of you are just as fervent about anthing Java? I mean, not just the Sun implementation -- goodness no! If you want to complain about other platforms polluting our precious GNU/Linux, then please, by all means, go completely Stallman and refuse anything which isn't totally 100% free in all senses of the word. We do need radicals like RMS to tip the scales -- but we don't need everyone to be a radical. The best road (again, IMO) lies somewhere in the middle. Oh, and I also hope that the MONO-haters aren't using NVIDIA or ATI binary blobs -- otherwise the hypocrisy must be eating them alive. Personally, I like things that work. Free is better than non-free -- but working beats them all. Hate me for not being a hater. I don't care. Big up to Miguel and his team. Big up to distros which make functionality a higher priority than pure freedom. Big up to freedom fighters like RMS who help us to maintain perspective. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Truth doesn't cease to be just because you don't agree with it. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 7:54:19 am Mark Fink wrote: > as benfrank said yesterday on boycottnovell: > > "The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps > part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who > want them. Easy as falling over. Not wanting to even discuss such a > simple solution makes it credible that Ubuntu is being corrupted by > Mono fans. IMono is controversial, and who needs the bloated Mono > runtime just to run a few marginal apps? The importance of Mono to > Ubuntu is greatly overblown by a small but very determined minority." > > MONO /is/ controversial, so why are you guys even shipping it? it's > only because MONO people have poisoned your minds and infiltrated > ubuntu to get power to enforce their will. Instead of whinging, why don't you write BETTER replacements for those applications in C, if it bothers you so much? Whinging is simply not constructive. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 7:49:32 am Mark Fink wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermann wrote: > > anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu > > or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in > > the first place. > > no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also > helps adict users to it. Without Mono, there is no Moonlight. Without Moonlight, you get users whinging that they can't watch the Democratic National Convention* on Linux therefore Linux is stupid and Windows is good. * The DNC is the one I can remember by name, but at least 2 or 3 large events have had Silverlight/Moonlight-only streaming. Er...wait, was the Olympics one of them? I think so... -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > Instead of whinging, why don't you write BETTER replacements for those > applications in C, if it bothers you so much? Whinging is simply not > constructive. It'd probably be better to write them in Java. That would force Mono out. (you can't possibly put both Mono and Java in the default install) I really do want Mono to be gone from the default install. It's like Wine: you're making a statement that "we are who we are because of Microsoft". And Java is a good alternative. It just needs a lot of love: * Gnome-Java bindings need to improve * Eclipse needs an updated package Currently, the Java situation is a big mess. And that's not good. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Monday 08 June 2009 7:49:32 am Mark Fink wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermann wrote: >> > anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu >> > or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in >> > the first place. >> >> no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also >> helps adict users to it. > > Without Mono, there is no Moonlight. Without Moonlight, you get users > whinging that they can't watch the Democratic National Convention* on Linux > therefore Linux is stupid and Windows is good. Moonlight works independently of Mono as far as I know. Oh well, I don't have it on my system. As soon as the major video sites move to (and they are preparing!), Flash will be gone too. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: >> On Monday 08 June 2009 7:49:32 am Mark Fink wrote: >>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermann wrote: >>> > anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu >>> > or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in >>> > the first place. >>> >>> no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also >>> helps adict users to it. >> >> Without Mono, there is no Moonlight. Without Moonlight, you get users >> whinging that they can't watch the Democratic National Convention* on Linux >> therefore Linux is stupid and Windows is good. > > Moonlight works independently of Mono as far as I know. Oh well, I > don't have it on my system. As soon as the major video sites move to > (and they are preparing!), Flash will be gone too. > > Remco > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Luke L. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Monday 08 June 2009 7:54:19 am Mark Fink wrote: >> as benfrank said yesterday on boycottnovell: >> >> "The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps >> part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who >> want them. Easy as falling over. Not wanting to even discuss such a >> simple solution makes it credible that Ubuntu is being corrupted by >> Mono fans. IMono is controversial, and who needs the bloated Mono >> runtime just to run a few marginal apps? The importance of Mono to >> Ubuntu is greatly overblown by a small but very determined minority." >> >> MONO /is/ controversial, so why are you guys even shipping it? it's >> only because MONO people have poisoned your minds and infiltrated >> ubuntu to get power to enforce their will. > > Instead of whinging, why don't you write BETTER replacements for those > applications in C, if it bothers you so much? Whinging is simply not > constructive. people already have http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Mono_Applications -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno dom, 07/06/2009 alle 19.06 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto: > > > Ashamed...for choosing to include good software that works well? > > MONO is a poor imitation of java, so why use MONO!? I don't understand your concern. Mono is free software, so are all the mentioned programs, so is ubuntu. And apart from eclipse, there is good support for java in ubuntu, too. So what? Wouldn't it be better to save your energy to campaign against proprietary software. Please remain calm if you intend to reply, I do not know what is the ideology you are part of but personally I don't see mono as a treat for free software. I do not develop in mono, but by now mono has various languages mapped to it, so multi-langauge development is possible using free software tools. This is certainly not possible today in java so I don't think they have the same features. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke L wrote: > This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: "They can't even create their own application framework!" Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno dom, 07/06/2009 alle 20.26 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto: > > > > you sound like a typical M$ appologist. do you sleep well at night? > hope they are paying you well. > You are on an ubuntu list and are sounding like a typical troll. Stop it. You are not likely to find microsoft servants here. So there should be something wrong in your conclusions. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 9:39:31 am Mark Fink wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > > Instead of whinging, why don't you write BETTER replacements for those > > applications in C, if it bothers you so much? Whinging is simply not > > constructive. > > people already have > > http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Mono_Applications Please. GThumb as a serious competitor to G-Spot? You've got to be joking. Gwenview & DigiKam are both KDE apps, so they are not valid answers for a GNOME distro. Besides that, Gwenview isn't a photo album manager--it's the equivalent of Eye of GNOME, just a viewer. And I already mentioned the troubles with replacing Tomboy with any of those. Zim is suitable for hackers, not for people like my brother. KNotes & BasKet are both KDE apps, unsuitable for GNOME distros. And Gnote is most certainly not better than Tomboy. It's an incomplete emulation of the original that breaks the formats used by Tomboy. And do you know how Hub responded to my bug report about him breaking the format's compatibility? He essentially said he was trying to lock users in. He doesn't want users to have the choice to go back to Tomboy. The Tomboy developer's response was to change Tomboy to accept Hub's broken notes for the sake of keeping users' choice in-tact. Now, which falls more into the category of freedom-loving? The developer who uses a patented technology which is no more a threat than MP3 to write software that doesn't bind the user, or the developer who uses unpatented technology to bind the user to him? -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke L wrote: >> This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. > > Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication > skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono > are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using > it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: "They can't > even create their own application framework!" yes, this is one of the MANY reasons why MONO should be removed -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:00:27 am Mark Fink wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Remco wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke L wrote: > >> This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. > > > > Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication > > skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono > > are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using > > it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: "They can't > > even create their own application framework!" > > yes, this is one of the MANY reasons why MONO should be removed Perhaps I misunderstand why the term "application framework" is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > Jo is a nice fellow, met him at UDS. Didn't seem very much to be > infiltrating...more like sitting around being cheerful and chatting with > whatever folks sat down. Oh sure. That's what he _wants_ you to think -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Monday 08 June 2009 7:49:32 am Mark Fink wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermann wrote: >> > anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu >> > or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in >> > the first place. >> >> no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also >> helps adict users to it. > > Without Mono, there is no Moonlight. Without Moonlight, you get users > whinging that they can't watch the Democratic National Convention* on > Linux therefore Linux is stupid and Windows is good. > > > * The DNC is the one I can remember by name, but at least 2 or 3 large > events > have had Silverlight/Moonlight-only streaming. Er...wait, was the > Olympics > one of them? I think so... My recollection is that Moonlight wasn't ready in time for the Olympics -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 9:14:04 am Derek Broughton wrote: > Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > > * The DNC is the one I can remember by name, but at least 2 or 3 large > > events > > have had Silverlight/Moonlight-only streaming. Er...wait, was the > > Olympics > > one of them? I think so... > > My recollection is that Moonlight wasn't ready in time for the Olympics Google concludes: while I though it was the Olympics for which late-night hacking got Moonlight up to speed for streaming, it was actually Obama's Inauguration. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstand why the term "application framework" is any better > than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be > extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than > GTK+, > Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. Ubuntu is supposed to be a collection of amazing free software, not a gratis Microsoft Windows. Consider that the Windows platform nowadays *is* .NET. Win32 is deprecated. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:30:12 am Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > > Perhaps I misunderstand why the term "application framework" is any better > > than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be > > extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, > > Qt, C, C++, and Python. > > We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark > Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included > in Ubuntu. Ubuntu is supposed to be a collection of amazing free > software, not a gratis Microsoft Windows. Consider that the Windows > platform nowadays *is* .NET. Win32 is deprecated. And in using Flash, we're Adobe technology users (even if, like I do, you use swfdec instead of Adobe's plugin). Sometimes pragmatism is needed to gain enough users for the critical mass that would let us push back. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Sun, 2009-06-07 at 18:36 -0400, Mark Fink wrote: > I hope you get rid of MONO. only then can your reputations be restored. > From my point of view, I don't see any reason why we should restrict software developers from programming in a language or environment in which they feel comfortable. Ubuntu has development environments for C, C++, ObjectiveC, D, Pascal, Fortran, Haskell, Perl, Python, R, Ruby, BASIC, Java, OCaml, Ada, COBOL, and probably a dozen really important languages that didn't fall off the top of my head. Why should Ubuntu actively prevent a developer from writing software in C# if they wish? That software may not even be intended to be shipped in Ubuntu, what if they want to use Ubuntu as the basis for an application that happens to be written in C#? Do you seriously believe we shouldn't allow this? For that reason, I actively and passionately disagree with any argument that a C# Development environment such as Mono should not be provided for Ubuntu. Since I believe that software developers should be allowed to program in whatever language they like, I'm obviously not going to be hypocritical and suggest that free software developers should not be allowed to. If a free software developer chooses C# to write their application. I don't see that we should treat it any differently as if they had written it in C, or Python, or Haskell. We should select the applications in our default install based on merit, on features, on ease-of-use and other more important matters. So for that reason, you'll find a couple of Mono-based applications in Ubuntu simply because they are the best of their breed right now. On a personal note, I really quite like C#. This is unsurprising, I grew up with Borland's development tools; I cut my teeth on Turbo C++ and Turbo Pascal, and my first real foray into GUI development was with Borland Delphi. It'd be surprising if I didn't like Anders' latest creation. On the patent concerns, the only thing I'd say is that patents are inherently uninteresting unless they are being enforced by their holders. Since Microsoft are not currently enforcing any C#-related patents--indeed is it even known whether they hold any?--that doesn't appear to be a concern. If you are worried about software in Ubuntu that is alleged elsewhere[0] by Microsoft to infringe patents it does hold, and is apparently actively enforcing, I suggest starting a separate thread to discuss removing the kernel from the archive. Scott [0] ie. to another Linux distributor, not to us -- Scott James Remnant sc...@ubuntu.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > And in using Flash, we're Adobe technology users (even if, like I do, you use > swfdec instead of Adobe's plugin). Sometimes pragmatism is needed to gain > enough users for the critical mass that would let us push back. That's different. Flash is ubiquitous on the internet. And it's not even installed by default. When gets implemented by the major sites, Flash will get installed far less. And even if we were to use Flash technology, that's not the same as using Microsoft technology. Ubuntu's main competitor is Microsoft. Using someone else's dogfood (Mono) because your own dogfood (Java) is crap is not good advertising. Mono is used for two applications: a photo manager and a note-taking program. Those programs are hardly a selling point of Ubuntu. And therefore, the use of Mono is unwarranted. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:55:32 am Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > > And in using Flash, we're Adobe technology users (even if, like I do, you use > > swfdec instead of Adobe's plugin). Sometimes pragmatism is needed to gain > > enough users for the critical mass that would let us push back. > > That's different. Flash is ubiquitous on the internet. And it's not > even installed by default. When gets implemented by the major > sites, Flash will get installed far less. IIRC, is: 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML 2) no longer requiring OGG Theora #2 just gets us right back to the old problem where we need fifty billion codecs to play anything on the internet. > And even if we were to use Flash technology, that's not the same as > using Microsoft technology. Ubuntu's main competitor is Microsoft. > Using someone else's dogfood (Mono) because your own dogfood (Java) is > crap is not good advertising. I would argue that our main competitor is Apple. People jumping ship from Microsoft tend to go to Apple. We're here to show there's an alternative to that jump. Jumping from Apple to Microsoft is not as common. > Mono is used for two applications: a photo manager and a note-taking > program. Those programs are hardly a selling point of Ubuntu. And > therefore, the use of Mono is unwarranted. Yet the desktop would be incomplete without them and they have no *good* replacements. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Boot Performance Targets for Karmic and +1
I've crossposted this first mail of the cycle to the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing lists. If you're interested in Boot Performance work in Ubuntu, you may want to subscribe to the ubuntu-boot mailing list since that's where I and others working on this will send future mails. For those that missed it, I've put a copy of my UDS presentation at the following URL: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/boot-performance/Fast%20Boot.odp My presentation style doesn't lend itself well to reading the slides themselves back afterwards, but the Notes to the slides should help you understand what I was talking about. In summary, our target boot speed for Ubuntu 10.04 (karmic+1) is 10s. For karmic itself, we'll work towards this but expect to be somewhere between our current speed and the final target. The reference platform for this target is a Dell Mini 9 netbook[0], the slow CPU and fast SSD makes this an excellent "middle of the road" machine. Some people's machines will be slower, some will be faster. If you're comparing bootcharts on the reference platform, they will be comparable with my own. If you're comparing bootcharts on a different platform, be sure _not_ to compare the numbers with mine - just the shape. 10s is a good number, especially for a generic, hardware agnostic, non-stripped down Linux distribution. From that starting point, development teams will be able to customise and tailor Ubuntu for specific hardware - and the OEM team will be able to produce custom Remixes of Ubuntu that boot even faster. I think it likely that we'll match Moblin's 5s benchmark on similar hardware, with a device-tailored Moblin-based remix of Ubuntu. (The 2s benchmark is afaict mostly aimed at the Automotive industry, and for specialist devices rather than computing devices) And just to affirm something we've already stated; this benchmark time is to a fully logged in desktop (auto-login) with an idle CPU and Disk. Deferring services is not an option unless done properly (ie. switching services from startup to on-demand activation). In order to reach that target, we need to make some assumptions and we need to work to a budget. One of the primary assumptions is that the most important thing we need to start, as soon as possible, is the X server. Almost everything that we ultimately want running needs the X server. The user's applications, desktop, panel, file manager, etc. all need the X server. If a service is not a dependency of the X server, it can be started once the X server is at least initialising itself (available CPU or I/O permitting). The dependencies of the X server are: * a writable, mounted filesystem - we'll do this work as udev probes the block devices * the Kernel framebuffer driver - loaded by udev * udev - replacing HAL as the basis for input hotplug * the hostname set - done very very very early In otherwords, "udev". udev has no real dependencies other than being out of the initramfs. This means that the only thing holding us up loading X is udev, and the initramfs. Some encouraging work has been done to udev which I hope to talk about in a future mail, so really the problem is the initramfs. The initramfs has one job: to mount the root filesystem. However we've ended up putting rather a lot of other cruft into it that we really don't want. The reason we don't want it is that there's a logarithmic penalty for adding things to the initramfs, because not only does it have to be loaded from disk, but it has to be decompressed, unpacked and cleaned up afterwards. A slight side-effect of this is that in the default case, there will be no splash screen. I hope to demonstrate that X can be started sufficiently fast that we don't need one. Obviously we'll need something for when we need to check a filesystem, or ask for a passphrase to decompress one, but we can start it in that case. Budgets. I've split the boot into a few obvious sections, and given each one a time budget. To reach the target of 10s, each of these sections needs to be at or under its budget. 2s Kernel and initramfs. This includes both, since arguably the need for an initramfs is a kernel implementation detail anyway (the kernel can mount the root filesystem itself in many circumstances) 2s Plumbing This is for driver loading, filesystem mounting, general busy work, etc. 2s X.org server Includes the display manager that actually starts it. Also includes any services required for the user's session that can be started alongside the X server 4s Desktop session Everything from the window manager, file manager to the panel and its applets. Also includes any services they require. These aren't too arbitrary, but are based on what should be possible and achievable. Scott [0] sharp-eyed readers will know this has just been end-of-lifed; we have yet to decide whether to change the platfor
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
This is clearly a "not invented here" syndrome. please read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here I'm a software engineer, I personally tried both java and .net (I don't like python very much because it's easy to get things out of control) I don't care where a technology is created, but what are the advantages I prefer .net because it has more language expressiveness than java (there are more constructs which can be used), and it runs faster (for instance in linux eclipse is really 10x slower than windows), and it's better integrated into gtk. I'm waiting for a new version of java with all the .net features and speed. In this case I would replace mono -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > IIRC, is: > 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML Which is irrelevant. Nobody uses XHTML. The kind of fake XHTML that some web designers use can use without problem. > 2) no longer requiring OGG Theora > > #2 just gets us right back to the old problem where we need fifty billion > codecs to play anything on the internet. Yet, you see that Youtube and Dailymotion use Theora in their implementations. is going to be a big boost for unencumbered media formats. >> And even if we were to use Flash technology, that's not the same as >> using Microsoft technology. Ubuntu's main competitor is Microsoft. >> Using someone else's dogfood (Mono) because your own dogfood (Java) is >> crap is not good advertising. > > I would argue that our main competitor is Apple. People jumping ship from > Microsoft tend to go to Apple. We're here to show there's an alternative to > that jump. Jumping from Apple to Microsoft is not as common. Microsoft is the market leader. Ergo, main competitor. And if Apple were the market leader, we're still "free Windows", which is not something an Apple user cares about. >> Mono is used for two applications: a photo manager and a note-taking >> program. Those programs are hardly a selling point of Ubuntu. And >> therefore, the use of Mono is unwarranted. > > Yet the desktop would be incomplete without them and they have no *good* > replacements. That's a problem that needs to be fixed. Though I don't use either application. Nautilus does just fine for my photo gathering needs, and I see Tomboy as a toy, really. If you want a real-world useful note-taking program, you need something like Xournal which records your scriblings. What I'd do with Tomboy, is what Gedit does for me. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Boot Performance Targets for Karmic and +1
Hi Scott: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:07, Scott James Remnant wrote: > > [0] sharp-eyed readers will know this has just been end-of-lifed; we >have yet to decide whether to change the platform as a result - a >possibility is to use the Dell Mini 10v which should give >near-identical results, but we haven't verified that yet > I believe the results should be near identical as well. The mini10v is practically the mini9 in a bigger shell with a nicer keyboard. The mini 10v would actually be quite useful in the sense that it's available with either SSD or HD, so you can literally see the differences that a hard drive makes on the system versus SSD too. -- Mario Limonciello supe...@gmail.com Sent from Manchester, New Hampshire, United States -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
a recent maxima / wxmaxima version
hi, I would like to see a recent maxima/wxmaxima version to be added to a (still open) repo the latest maxima version is 5.17: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/ the latest in ANY of the repos is 5.13 http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=maxima the Debian package of 5.17 installs and runs fine: http://packages.debian.org/sid/maxima my favourite GUI wxmaxima has plenty of improvements that need maxima at least 5.17: http://wxmaxima.sourceforge.net/ there are wxmaxima versions available for maxima 5.17 on http://zeus.nyf.hu/~blahota/linux/ * the version (0.8.2) for ubuntu 9.04 does not run on my hardy with 5.17 maxima from debian * the version (0.8.1) for ubuntu 8.10 DOES RUN on my hardy with 5.17 maxima from debian Thus I would like to see an ubuntu version of maxima 5.17 in Jaunty or Karmic (the earliest possible) and a corresponding wxmaxima (0.8.1 or 0.8.2) as well. After that I'll be happy to help its backporting to hardy. thanks for your work Viktor -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 11:35:15 am Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > > IIRC, is: > > 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML > > Which is irrelevant. Nobody uses XHTML. The kind of fake XHTML that > some web designers use can use without problem. XHTML 1.0 Strict can use ? > Microsoft is the market leader. Ergo, main competitor. And if Apple > were the market leader, we're still "free Windows", which is not > something an Apple user cares about. But which two OSes are gaining users and which is losing them? We get to squabble with Apple over who gets the users that leave Microsoft. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The awesome software sources adding feature
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: >> That was awesome. Why haven't I seen the functionality used before? >> Install directions with repositories involved look completely hostile >> right now, but this resolves the issue perfectly. > > The functionality of saving the apt sources and of saving the full > package selection from synaptic should be merged: it takes a very small > effort to clone an ubuntu system that way. Are there hurdles that I > don't see? Speaking of things that should be in Synaptic, the functionality of gui-apt-key springs to mind; rather than importing key files, we should just be able to look them up or type in the number, e.g. if you wanted to add the Wine HQ repository, when adding the apt line: deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt/ jaunty main that there could be a spot to add the key (387EE263) or better yet have it automatically extracted from the repo with some confirmation that it is the key for "Scott Ritchie", do you want to add it? CK (who was highly annoyed to discover that the official Miro repository is unsigned ): -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: >> Perhaps I misunderstand why the term "application framework" is any >> better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I >> think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET >> is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. > > We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark > Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included > in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Nicolò Chieffo wrote: > This is clearly a "not invented here" syndrome. please read wikipedia > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here > > I'm a software engineer, I personally tried both java and .net (I > don't like python very much because it's easy to get things out of > control) > I don't care where a technology is created, but what are the advantages > I prefer .net because it has more language expressiveness than java > (there are more constructs which can be used), and it runs faster (for > instance in linux eclipse is really 10x slower than windows), It might be slower. 10x? No way... > I'm waiting for a new version of java with all the .net features and > speed. In this case I would replace mono LOL. I've been waiting for a Java like that for almost 15 years. It keeps getting _bigger_ not faster. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughton wrote: > Remco wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: >>> Perhaps I misunderstand why the term "application framework" is any >>> better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I >>> think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET >>> is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. >> >> We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark >> Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included >> in Ubuntu. > > It's not? When did that happen? > > $ apt-cache policy wine > wine: > Installed: (none) > Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 > Version table: > 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 > 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages > -- > derek Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here... Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughton > wrote: > > Remco wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morgan > wrote: > >>> Perhaps I misunderstand why the term "application framework" is any > >>> better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I > >>> think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that > .NET > >>> is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. > >> > >> We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark > >> Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included > >> in Ubuntu. > > > > It's not? When did that happen? > > > > $ apt-cache policy wine > > wine: > > Installed: (none) > > Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 > > Version table: > > 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 > >500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages > > -- > > derek > > Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You > can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call > MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here... > > Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, > and should not be treated as such. > > Remco > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger < david.schlesin...@access-company.com> wrote: > > Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to > dick > > around like this. > > Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment > to that message. > > Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this > week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox > filling up with the same nonsensical "Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over > Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve > Ballmer" flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is > harshing my mellow... > > Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel > (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the > years to free software. > > As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus > might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of > photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up > with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop > should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should > use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can > save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, > and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... > > The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel > similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And > if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more > than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him > here... > -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesinger wrote: > As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were > completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The > appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not to try to > switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come > within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of > the default install. > I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. Wine is not in the default install, like the codecs, so it is *not* included in Ubuntu. I'm *not* against Wine, and I'm *not* against Mono. I'm *not* part of boycotnovell, and I'm *not* Mark Fink. I *am* however, a lurker on the wine-devel mailinglist, and I sometimes participate in discussions. I mess with Wine regularly to try and get some games working. I sometimes contribute to the Wine AppDB. I've filed bugs for Wine. I haven't used Mono for anything yet, but I'm sure it will one day be useful to me in Wine to run some .NET apps. So please don't write me off as a useless troll when I have concerns with any of these Windows 'emulators' being part of the default install. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Question about package usage of /opt
Hi Jan, et al, Re: Use of /usr/share - Is there a registry for names under /usr/share? I would prefer having a known space that does not conflict with others. (e.g. /usr/share/fwslc). - Is it "ok" to have symlinks in the local instance directory structure to said /usr/share area. NOTE: All usage is "read-only". - For an instance, there is a collection of "prototype" configuration files. Is it "ok" to store these under the /usr/share area, and copy them to the local instance directory (thereby maintaining the "read- only" nature of the items under /usr/share)? --- I have a collection of scripts that have a version id associated with it. I allow updating infrastructure by simply changing a symlink from one version of the infrastructure to another What I want to do is have all database instances sharing the version of the scripts that is selected for that instance. That is, your db instance could be using a different version of the infrastructure scripts than I am, but there is only one copy of the scripts for any version. If there are "overrides" to a script (local mods), then selection of that modified script is handled by PATH ordering. Cheers, --ldl On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Jan Claeys wrote: > Op vrijdag 05-06-2009 om 06:13 uur [tijdzone -0600], schreef LD 'Gus' > Landis: >> So, I would think that a good way to "package" Cache >> would be to have it stored somewhere (under /usr/share??), > > /usr/share is for platform-independent files, which I doubt is true for > Caché? (Some years ago I followed an unrelated course where a Caché > manager was a teacher, so I know at least a bit about what it is ;) ) > > > -- > Jan Claeys > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- --- NOTE: If it is important CALL ME - I may miss email, which I do NOT normally check on weekends nor on a regular basis during any other day. --- LD Landis - N0YRQ - de la tierra del encanto 3960 Schooner Loop, Las Cruces, NM 88012 651/340-4007 N32 21'48.28" W106 46'5.80" “If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly.” –GK Chesterton. An interpretation: For things worth doing: Doing them, even if badly, is better than doing nothing perfectly (on them). "but I trust my family jewels only to Linux." -- DE Knuth (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856) Funny Quote of the Day - Douglas Adams - "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: > Wine is not in the default install, like the codecs, > so it is *not* included in Ubuntu. To equate "not included in Ubuntu" with "not in the default install" is twisting semantics to suit your purpose. Ubuntu universe is still part of Ubuntu. If you mean "Ubuntu main", or "Ubuntu default install", be sure that is what you actually say. Max. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: > Remco wrote: >> Wine is not in the default install, like the codecs, >> so it is *not* included in Ubuntu. > > To equate "not included in Ubuntu" with "not in the default install" is > twisting semantics to suit your purpose. > > Ubuntu universe is still part of Ubuntu. If you mean "Ubuntu main", or > "Ubuntu default install", be sure that is what you actually say. > > Max. I don't care what the semantics are. I think I've made myself very clear now. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: > > Am 08.06.2009 um 08:37 schrieb Stephan Hermann: > >> Mono gives us a good way into the MS front...this could also be a >> point >> of view. > > It's interesting to see how some people accuse Mono to be Microsofts > inroad into the open source world and others see the inroad of open > source into the Microsoft world in the very same piece of software. > Shall the freedom win ! > At least on the .NET front, the chances look quite good - Microsoft have now released a couple of open-source projects. Two that spring to mind are IronPython and the Silverlight 2 UI toolkit. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughton > wrote: >> Remco wrote: >> >>> We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark >>> Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included >>> in Ubuntu. >> >> It's not? When did that happen? >> >> $ apt-cache policy wine >> wine: >> Installed: (none) >> Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 >> Version table: >> 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 >> 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages > > Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You > can find those in the repositories as well. Where? See, I demonstrated how exactly wine _is_ in Ubuntu, and you counter by throwing out some vague concepts without a single package name. Wine is in _universe_. That's an Ubuntu repository. Windows media codecs have a package that allows _you_ to download from an another source. It's a pretty huge distinction. > Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, > and should not be treated as such. The "repositories" are part of a default install - they get added to your default sources. Things like wine aren't omitted from the CD for _policy_ reasons, they're omitted for _space_. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David > Schlesinger wrote: >> As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You >> were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. >> The appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not to >> try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's >> come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be >> part of the default install. >> > > I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to > let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. Are you really just fink using different nym? > and I'm *not* Mark Fink. OK, I guess you're sure, but that doesn't make your argument valid. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughton wrote: > Remco wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David >> Schlesinger wrote: >>> As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You >>> were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. >>> The appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not to >>> try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's >>> come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be >>> part of the default install. >>> >> >> I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to >> let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. > > That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The > non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. > -- > derek You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, and you can install them through Add/Remove. The codecs aren't installed because of patent problems. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 And I'm arguing that the same applies to Mono, because it's a reimplementation of *the* Windows application framework. You've now pushed me to the extreme, because I really don't have a strong opinion about this. Mono-by-default is a problem, but it's not paramount. I'm not going to leave Ubuntu for it (who came up with that crazy idea...), but I am going to point it out. I'd like to see the problem fixed, but that means a good alternative to F-Spot and maybe Tomboy needs to be found or created. The Java development tools need to be fixed for Ubuntu. The bindings need to improve. Basically, it just needs the same love as Mono. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: > > > >> Oh well...in the 80ties/90ties when Java was invented and was used by >> more people then Turbo Pascal in no time, I said the same...It was >> closed source, and had too much of Sun in it.. >> >> > > KDE/Qt we should start a wall of fame =D > > Probably not on anybody's radar but let's add: Firebirdsql/Interbase (is this about closed software going opensource? :-D) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:17 AM, David Schlesinger wrote: >> Basically, it just needs the same love as Mono. > > One thing I think I can state with certainty about free and open source > software development is that demanding that a bunch of other folks drop what > they're doing and "give love" to something else on your behalf never works. > Maybe your time, and Mark's, would be better spent writing a credible F-Spot > replacement if you think that's something that needs to be done; certainly > don't expect anyone else to do it because F-Spot happens to upset you. > > And see what I wrote half a day ago: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Remco wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Mark Fink wrote: >> I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. >> >> the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around >> censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. this >> is not a laughing matter and the fact that you slandering roy >> schestowitz only goes to show you are probably part of the problem. > > These accusations are not helping your case. If you want to really > solve the problem you need to: > > * improve the Gnome-Java bindings and get them in Ubuntu > * make a Java equivalent of F-Spot and Tomboy > * push for replacement of these apps and the framework > > I'm all for replacing Mono with Java, but the problems need to be > fixed. Complaining is not going to do that. > > Remco > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughton > wrote: >> Remco wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David >>> Schlesinger wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. >>> >>> I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to >>> let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. >> >> That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The >> non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. > > You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. > The codecs are > not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. On second thoughts, don't bother. You're clearly just a troll, after all. > and you can install them through Add/Remove. The codecs aren't > installed because of patent problems. The codecs aren't even in the repositories _because of patent problems_. > Wine isn't installed because > Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: > > http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 > http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. > You've now pushed me to the extreme, because I really don't have a Nobody pushed you - we rebutted poorly thought arguments and you accused us of arguing "semantics" (which is not quite the insult you seem to think). If you continue this ridiculous rant, you'll be shouting into the bit bucket... -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Derek Broughton wrote: > Remco wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughton >> wrote: >>> Remco wrote: >>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesinger wrote: > As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You > were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. > The appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not to > try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. > Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention > should be part of the default install. > I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. >>> >>> That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The >>> non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. >> >> You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. > > Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while > dismissing perfectly valid arguments. What's your argument against my position? That I maybe made a semantic cock-up in a throwaway comparison? That's a great one... How does that relate to Mono? >> The codecs are >> not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, > > No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they > exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. If the codecs are not in the repos, then I'm amazed as to how they got onto my system. Clearly, the ffmpeg project (yeah, universe) doesn't exist. Besides, how is the exact location of the codecs relevant? I can install them in the same way as I install Wine. >> Wine isn't installed because >> Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: >> >> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 >> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 > > Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge > of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that > matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be > preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that > Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says > that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. Slashdot is not the source. Look one click further and you'll find the actual source. You just fell in the same trap as the Wikipedia naysayers. It's just easy reference. And if you don't want to see this as the motivation for not including Wine, then so be it. I think it's pretty clear why Wine is not supposed to be on the default install. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I sorry, just wanted to be a part of the lols On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Remco wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Derek Broughton > wrote: > > Remco wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughton > >> wrote: > >>> Remco wrote: > >>> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David > Schlesinger wrote: > > As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You > > were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument > meaningless. > > The appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not > to > > try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. > > Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you > mention > > should be part of the default install. > > > > I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to > let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. > >>> > >>> That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The > >>> non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. > >> > >> You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. > > > > Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while > > dismissing perfectly valid arguments. > > What's your argument against my position? That I maybe made a semantic > cock-up in a throwaway comparison? That's a great one... How does that > relate to Mono? > > >> The codecs are > >> not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, > > > > No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where > they > > exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. > > If the codecs are not in the repos, then I'm amazed as to how they got > onto my system. Clearly, the ffmpeg project (yeah, universe) doesn't > exist. Besides, how is the exact location of the codecs relevant? I > can install them in the same way as I install Wine. > > >> Wine isn't installed because > >> Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: > >> > >> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 > >> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 > > > > Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of > knowledge > > of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for > that > > matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be > > preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says > that > > Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one > says > > that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. > > Slashdot is not the source. Look one click further and you'll find the > actual source. You just fell in the same trap as the Wikipedia > naysayers. It's just easy reference. And if you don't want to see this > as the motivation for not including Wine, then so be it. I think it's > pretty clear why Wine is not supposed to be on the default install. > > Remco > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
As a reader of this list I have to confess that the tone of the emails being sent appear to have degenerated into name calling and I have to confess that I'm not particularly interested to spend my voluntary spare time reading messages between people abusing one another. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that a technical argument can be had in a civilised tone. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |>>?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
2009/6/9 Derek Broughton > > > Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while > dismissing perfectly valid arguments. > > > The codecs are > > not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, > > No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they > exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. I don't have strong feelings about Mono, but the OP suggests: "The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them..." Sounds much like the current policy of Restricted drivers. So from the POV of the OP "getting rid of mono" means removing it from the default install. A number of people have interpreted it to mean removing it from the repos, but doesn't appear to be what the OP wants, indeed AFAICT noone here has /specifically/ suggested removing Mono from the repos. To put things in perspective, mono requires 15MiB in .deb form and 44MiB installed. Thats about 2% of the space on the CD. If, hypothetically, Ubuntu was prevented from distributing wine, at least we wouldn't have to rebuild 'stable' CD-images. -- John C. McCabe-Dansted total=0 dpkg -l | grep mono | sed 's/[[:alnum:]]* //' | sed 's/ .*$//' | sed s/[[:space:]]//g | while read f do grep "Package: $f" /var/lib/apt/lists/*_pub_ubuntu_dists_jaunty_main_binary-amd64_Packages -A20 #done | grep "^Size: " | sed 's/[^[:digit:]]//g' | while read size ; do total=$(($total+$size)) ; echo "$size $total $(($total/1024/1024))MiB" done | grep "^Installed-Size: " | sed 's/[^[:digit:]]//g' | while read size ; do total=$(($total+$size)) ; echo "$size $total $(($total/1024))MiB" done -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
> Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that a technical argument can be had in a > civilised tone. > > Ah, but you see...these are NOT technical arguments. These are about 'standards'. Can there really be a technical argument between using say the metric system versus the foot/yard or the ounce/pound? That is why it is easy for flamewars to start when it comes to bash vs c-shell vs korn or c vs c++ or whatever combination you wish because in the end...it is about 'standards'. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Christopher Chan wrote: > These are about 'standards'. Can there really be a technical argument > between using say the metric system versus the foot/yard or the ounce/pound? Yes: 1) state your technical requirements 2) state the relevant properties of each standard 3) argue about which properties best match which requirements 4) profit For example: 1) I want a system of measurements that: * minimises the amount of learning necessary in schools * is controlled by an international body which represents my interests * allows easy comparisons between different quantities 2) Imperial units: * Older people know Imperial, they can spend the time to teach kids * Kids who have learnt from (grand)parents needn't learn in school * Imperial uses multiple words per unit (inch, foot, yard) * Imperial is controlled by the British government * Imperial is widely use in places that won't go away (e.g. roads) * Older people will never know anything but imperial * You can't make comparisons unless you know what the quantities mean Metric units: * Metric only requires knowledge of base 10, except to count time * Kids already need to learn base 10, and to count time * Metric uses a single word per unit (metre, litre) * Metric is controlled by SI * Because it uses base 10, metric is very easy to compare 3) If we started over from scratch, the benefits of imperial would be moot. But we're not, so moving away from imperial would cause 50+ years of difficulty comparing quantities. But if the move to metric is successfully completed, we'll have hundreds or thousands of years of upside. 4) Being an optimist about how much time we've got on this planet, I vote metric. Intelligent people may disagree, especially if they have different requirements. I respect those that disagree, and accept that the requirements I've laid out do not necessarily reflect the requirements of the Ubuntu project. Contentious issues can be argued civilly, you just need to be a bit careful about it. When discussing topics that can get religious, please consider a premise-reasoning-conclusion model like the above. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
