Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Intentionally omitted name tags

[Marc_marc]

Le 16.07.23 à 02:38, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :
Comment is requested on a proposal to introduce two tags to indicate the 
reason why a name=* tag has been omitted from a feature:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Omitted_name_tag 


did we need to have this thread again and again ?
1) the fact that a name is disputed doesn't mean that it doesn't have a 
name. if it doesn't have a name, then the name isn't disputed !
2) the fact that a name exist in several local language again isn't a 
subdivision of "this doesn't have a name", default_langage may already

be used for that

about the rationale
1.1. yes it's possible to solve vandalism issue about the Persian Gulf / 
Arabian Gulf naming dispute : just revert the vandalism.
adding a noname=for me it should not have a name=* but for another it 
should have one" doesn't solve the issue, you only have 2 tags for a 
waredit in stead of on
1.2. I see a used case if you see something rongly  tagged with 
noname=yes and delete it but aren't not sure yet how to spell the name=*

I also doesn't see why you call it trolltag

so in fact, you don't only want to add new tag to express why somebody 
think that an object shouldn't have a tag, you also want that ppl

that think that are allowed to remove the name tag
that's a *bad* idea.
how did I render a name in that case ? how 'll it solve the Persian Gulf 
/ Arabian Gulf naming dispute ? currently showing disputed name

is better than don't show anything because someone disagree with
the more common name(s)

Regards,
Marc



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Intentionally omitted name tags

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 12:08 PM Marc_marc  wrote:

> did we need to have this thread again and again ?
> [...]

Regards,
> Marc
>

What do you believe should go into the name tag of the bodies of water
known in French as océan Atlantique or the body of water known as Itämeri
in Finnish?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Intentionally omitted name tags

[Marc_marc]

Le 30.07.23 à 18:52, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :
On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 12:08 PM Marc_marc > wrote:


did we need to have this thread again and again ?

What do you believe should go into the name tag of the bodies of water 
known in French as océan Atlantique or the body of water known 
as Itämeri in Finnish?


my personal preference is to have a name=* in a neutral language
such as esperanto

currently it's often English that's used for that, and I find that
much worse than making no choice at all, as you suggest
because many datause will have to make a choice

as you can see on https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640306/history
adding nome=* doesn't solve the publishing wars

I'll return the question to you: what name should a global datause
for an object without name=* ?
and does your proposal to "add" a noname=multi_langual hide a "deleting 
the names I disapprove of is nomore a vandalism but approved" ?
because I have no isue to add a tag to express that name=* is 
multilingual (exept that the tag already exist and isn't a noname=")

but that doesn't mean "the rule for name=" changed"

Regards,
Marc



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Intentionally omitted name tags

[Nick Santos]

> what name should a global datause for an object without name=* ?

I take the proposal to mean that the database itself doesn't *need* to
choose a name. Name choices are for renderers, which can be opinionated,
but that the database itself can be neutral if we simply include the names
in multiple languages and leave it at that. I think that's a good idea and
an important evolution of tagging names that matches how the community
expects other features of the database to behave (e.g. don't tag for the
renderer).

If your question was about a "global data user" and not a "global
database", I think my point still applies - having the database make the
decision for data users is a worse result in my mind than making data users
at least decide they're choosing a single language, or pick and choose by
region. They can also do what OpenStreetmap Americana does and let map
users choose the language they want rendered, though that's only one
approach to the problem (one I happen to like).

-Nick



On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 10:47 AM Marc_marc  wrote:

> Le 30.07.23 à 18:52, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :
> > On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 12:08 PM Marc_marc  > > wrote:
> >
> > did we need to have this thread again and again ?
> >
> > What do you believe should go into the name tag of the bodies of water
> > known in French as océan Atlantique or the body of water known
> > as Itämeri in Finnish?
>
> my personal preference is to have a name=* in a neutral language
> such as esperanto
>
> currently it's often English that's used for that, and I find that
> much worse than making no choice at all, as you suggest
> because many datause will have to make a choice
>
> as you can see on https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640306/history
> adding nome=* doesn't solve the publishing wars
>
> I'll return the question to you: what name should a global datause
> for an object without name=* ?
> and does your proposal to "add" a noname=multi_langual hide a "deleting
> the names I disapprove of is nomore a vandalism but approved" ?
> because I have no isue to add a tag to express that name=* is
> multilingual (exept that the tag already exist and isn't a noname=")
> but that doesn't mean "the rule for name=" changed"
>
> Regards,
> Marc
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Intentionally omitted name tags

[Marc_marc]

Le 30.07.23 à 20:47, Nick Santos a écrit :
If your question was about a "global data user" and not  
a "global database", I think my point still applies -  
having the database make the decision


database don't make decision. database store the local decision :)
datause may follow this decision or decide another rule (for ex always 
take name:fr first, if missing take name:en, if missing take name:eo,

if missing take name=*, if missing take brand=*)


pick and choose by region.


the current rule is : to choose by region, take name=* !
you're just shifting the problem around :
which regional choice should osmcarto make for golf ?
and where will this choice be stored if not in name=* ?
this_is_not_the_name_tag_but_still=* ?
and you still disaggree about it, what's the next step ?

If all data users wanted to make this choice, we wouldn't
be having this discussion and there wouldn't be any editwars
over golf or the ocean.
the fact that there is an editwar shows that there are uses that
don't want to make this choice, or are simply unable to do so
or choice to use the name as set by concensus in name=*

if you want to route a chinese person to "Station street" in Brussels" 
how is the application going to guess that the local convention are

to have the name in 2 languages "Rue de la gare - Stationstraat" ?
if you tell me to use default_language="fr - nl" then that shows
that we don't need to delete name :) not to add a fake noname=*
if an American wants to add the name of a street sign in Fribourg,
does he need to have any linguistic knowledge to fill in the name:xx ?
or he just need to read the sign and put in into name=" ? easy !

As for disputed names, the hidden goal "delete unwanted name=*"
doesn't solve anything either !
We haven't solved the problem of disputed borders by deleting
anything, we've added a tag to describe the opinion according
to A and the opinion according to B, which is exactly what exists
with name:X
if you want the name "according to the language foo", look
at name:foo
we also have name:xy-foo if a "part of this language community"
have another name:yx, for ex UN variant

create a disputed_by:name of whatever, but it has nothing
to do with a nameless object, so don't distort noname=* nor
delete name to do this, disputed doesn't mean "noname"

Regards,
Marc



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging