Re: [Tagging] Relations of type=site + tourism=camp_site

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Nov 12, 2022, 14:22 by li...@fuchsschwanzdomain.de:

> Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging  wrote:
>
>> So
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/13012999#map=19/49.12702/10.86422
>> site relation is including nearby restaurant and shop?
>>
>
> Right!
>
>> That are not actually part of camp site?
>>
>
> Wellm, they are not part of it geographicaly because the are located outside 
> the
> actual campground but they are part of it in organizational terms.
>
In which sense? Are they operated by camp site?

Or is it just "place where many people from camp site are using"?
In such case - what is stopping people from adding also
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/534602086 parking and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/534372433 post box and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/615814536 beach and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37585648 lake and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4703294282 train stop?

>
> Is this that hard to understand?
>
>> And just included there to manually do processing part of finding nearby
>> shops/restaurants?
>>
>
> Wrong. They are not only nearby somethings but as I wrote above are parte of
> the site in organizational terms.
>
see above

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Manufacturer and Model

[Daniele Santini]

Voting has started for the proposal "Manufacturer and Model":
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Manufacturer_and_Model
.

The goal is to clarify the keys and the documentation for tagging the
manufacturer and model of elements on the map.

Cheers

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https://www.dsantini.it
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Manufacturer and Model

[Davidoskky via Tagging]

Nice proposal, thank you.

I'll get to read it more thoroughly later.

On 13/11/22 11:39, Daniele Santini wrote:
Voting has started for the proposal "Manufacturer and Model": 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Manufacturer_and_Model 
.


The goal is to clarify the keys and the documentation for tagging the 
manufacturer and model of elements on the map.


Cheers

--
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https://www.dsantini.it

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Cartographer10 via Tagging]

I didn't receive any feedback on my updated proposal. If you have any, please 
share it here. I hope that the current proposal will for everybody.

Kind regards,

Vincent


6 nov. 2022 09:03 van tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co:

> I have updated the proposal a few days back which I would like to receive 
> feedback on.
>
> I removed the transition period and required both the forum and the ML to be 
> notified of a new proposal or vote. One exception I propose is that the 
> proposal should be allowed to be made on behalf of the proposal author on 
> either the ML or the forum. 
>
> I hope that this change will satisfy both sides
>
> Vincent
>
>
> 29 okt. 2022 09:34 van tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co:
>
>> Hello everybody,
>>
>> Based on the feedback, I updated the proposal to start using the new forum 
>> for proposal announcements. 
>>
>> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Start_moving_proposal_announcements_to_the_new_forum>>
>>   
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Vincent
>>
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I support the idea that proposals be posted to both the mailing list and
the community forums.  Over time we can assess whether one or the other is
better.

One thing I think is missing is that I would like to see proposals posted
to a dedicated space in the forums that can be subscribed to, that way
someone can subscribe to new proposal announcements without having to wade
through general tagging discussions.  Has there been any thought to
creating a dedicated proposal space, or is there otherwise some
functionality that would allow someone to subscribe just to proposal
announcements?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 10:07 AM Cartographer10 via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I didn't receive any feedback on my updated proposal. If you have any,
> please share it here. I hope that the current proposal will for everybody.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Vincent
>
>
>
> 6 nov. 2022 09:03 van
> tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co:
>
> I have updated the proposal a few days back which I would like to receive
> feedback on.
>
> I removed the transition period and required both the forum and the ML to
> be notified of a new proposal or vote. One exception I propose is that the
> proposal should be allowed to be made on behalf of the proposal author on
> either the ML or the forum.
>
> I hope that this change will satisfy both sides
>
> Vincent
>
>
> 29 okt. 2022 09:34 van
> tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> Based on the feedback, I updated the proposal to start using the new forum
> for proposal announcements.
>
> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Start_moving_proposal_announcements_to_the_new_forum
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Vincent
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Cartographer10 via Tagging]

It has been discussed with the forum admin here: 
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/moving-to-the-new-forum-for-proposals-and-voting/2940/70?u=cartographer10

He recommends to first start in the tagging sub community. If the volumes get 
really high, we can request a subcommunity. You can also request this community 
now if you can get enough people to moderate it.

In the mean time, each announcement topic should get the tag "wiki-proposal" 
(listed in the proposed template). People can follow that tag (see proposal for 
a tutorial) and get a notification about new posts with that tag. That way they 
don't have to follow the entire tagging sub community.

Regards,
Vincent


13 nov. 2022 19:17 van zelonewolf_at_gmail_com_drz...@simplelogin.co:

>
> This email failed anti-phishing checks when it was received by SimpleLogin, 
> be careful with its content.More info on > anti-phishing measure 
> 
>
> I support the idea that proposals be posted to both the mailing list and the 
> community forums.  Over time we can assess whether one or the other is better.
>
> One thing I think is missing is that I would like to see proposals posted to 
> a dedicated space in the forums that can be subscribed to, that way someone 
> can subscribe to new proposal announcements without having to wade through 
> general tagging discussions.  Has there been any thought to creating a 
> dedicated proposal space, or is there otherwise some functionality that would 
> allow someone to subscribe just to proposal announcements?
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 10:07 AM Cartographer10 via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> I didn't receive any feedback on my updated proposal. If you have any, 
>> please share it here. I hope that the current proposal will for everybody.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Vincent
>>
>>
>>
>> 6 nov. 2022 09:03 van >> 
>> tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co>> :
>>
>>> I have updated the proposal a few days back which I would like to receive 
>>> feedback on.
>>>
>>> I removed the transition period and required both the forum and the ML to 
>>> be notified of a new proposal or vote. One exception I propose is that the 
>>> proposal should be allowed to be made on behalf of the proposal author on 
>>> either the ML or the forum. 
>>>
>>> I hope that this change will satisfy both sides
>>>
>>> Vincent
>>>
>>>
>>> 29 okt. 2022 09:34 van >>> 
>>> tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co>>> :
>>>
 Hello everybody,

 Based on the feedback, I updated the proposal to start using the new forum 
 for proposal announcements. 

 Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Start_moving_proposal_announcements_to_the_new_forum
   

 Kind regards,
 Vincent

>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] amentiy=donation_centre?

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 19:02 2022-11-12, Graeme Fitzpatrick đã viết:




On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 at 10:37, António Madeira 
> wrote:


I don't know of any charity which buys items to then resell or
distribute them, although that can happen in some obscure situation.


There's that international thing appearing again!

In Australia, /every/ (or at least the vast majority?) charity shop 
takes your no longer needed clothes, toys, kitchenware etc to sell, & 
then use the resulting money to fund their activities. Very few of the 
donated items are ever passed directly to the homeless / needy.


Right, this is true in the U.S. in the vast majority of cases. Some 
charities like Goodwill have an additional charitable aspect of 
employing underprivileged and disabled people to staff the back 
operations, sorting and preparing the goods for retail.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Marc_marc]

Le 13.11.22 à 16:01, Cartographer10 via Tagging a écrit :
I didn't receive any feedback on my updated proposal. If you have any, 
please share it here


I have the impression that you have received a lot of it but you simply 
refuse to listen to it and go on forcing it until it finally passes.


To return to my main point: the new forum, when it is mature, will allow 
a mailinglist-web interface merger.

I don't see any advantage in making a proposal against mailing lists,
a proposal should be for something
especially proposing that the people outside the list should ask someone 
else to post a thread for them which they will not participate in, seems 
to me to be absurdly absurd advice!

if your advice seems coherent, why not do the opposite?
those who post on the list add a line "pleasee vincent crosspost
to the forum ?





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Cartographer10 via Tagging]

I did actually do something with the feedback. Quite some people advised to 
require posting on both platforms. The proposal now requires that. 

However, the first vote did show that quite some people actually support 
including the forum in the proposal process. There are quite some people 
discouraged by the mailing list requirement. These proposals should be 
community proposals but they hardly are if people do no feel confident enough 
to start a proposal or to participate because of the communication platform. 
That is why I made it possible to let others post on the other platform on your 
behalf. 

Same is also the other way around. If you really dislike the forum, then ask 
somebody else to post it there on your behalf. Both platforms are treated 
equally in the proposal this way.

My goal is not to "go on forcing it until it finally passes." but make sure 
that everybody can freely contribute in proposals which it is not the case now.

13 nov. 2022 20:24 van marc_marc_at_mailo_com_xrkimi...@simplelogin.co:

> This email failed anti-phishing checks when it was received by SimpleLogin, 
> be careful with its content.
> More info on https://simplelogin.io/docs/getting-started/anti-phishing/
>  --
> Le 13.11.22 à 16:01, Cartographer10 via Tagging a écrit :
>
>> I didn't receive any feedback on my updated proposal. If you have any, 
>> please share it here
>>
>
> I have the impression that you have received a lot of it but you simply 
> refuse to listen to it and go on forcing it until it finally passes.
>
> To return to my main point: the new forum, when it is mature, will allow a 
> mailinglist-web interface merger.
> I don't see any advantage in making a proposal against mailing lists,
> a proposal should be for something
> especially proposing that the people outside the list should ask someone else 
> to post a thread for them which they will not participate in, seems to me to 
> be absurdly absurd advice!
> if your advice seems coherent, why not do the opposite?
> those who post on the list add a line "pleasee vincent crosspost
> to the forum ?
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street parking revision

[Alex]

Hello everybody,

I would like to remind you of the ongoing discussion process on the 
street parking revision proposal: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_parking_revision


Since this proposal aims to deprecate an existing tagging schema and 
replace it with a new one, it would be good to get critical views from 
as many perspectives as possible. Thanks for that!


Kind regards
Alex


Am 07.11.22 um 12:37 schrieb Alex:

Hey all,

over the past few weeks, a group of mappers has been working on a 
proposal to improve the mapping of parking lanes and parking spaces 
along streets. Considerations and discussions about this have already 
arisen in the past among street parking mappers, and now a proposal 
has been prepared.


The goal of this proposal is to deprecate and replace the 
parking:lane=* and parking:condition=* schema for mapping street 
parking spaces. The existing schema has some weaknesses and is 
unnecessarily complicated and therefore unattractive for many mappers. 
Above all, in many ways it differs from today's OSM conventions. The 
proposed new schema is intended to be easier and more logical to 
apply. The new schema follows established OSM conventions more 
closely. It harmonises tagging of parking spaces mapped on the 
centerline as an attribute of a street with parking spaces mapped as a 
separate feature. It also reflects aspects of a data migration process.


For details, see the proposal: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_parking_revision
It is quite extensive, as it covers and reforms all aspects of the 
previous schema and closes some further gaps.


Best regards
Alex


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 at 01:07, Cartographer10 via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I hope that the current proposal will for everybody.
>

It possibly will be one day, but at the moment, no, I don't think that
we're yet ready to say "You *have* to post there".

I recently started a discussion to clarify some points on existing tags,
before going into a full RFC / Proposal concerning them.

Posted the same original message, then two further follow-up questions,
here on Tagging, in Discourse & on the talk page of the three pages
concerned.

So far, there have been 23 responses to Tagging, the original message
received one "like" in Discourse, & there's been a single response on one
of the 3 talk pages.

Possibly the subject under discussion is of no interest to the majority of
people?, but those results would suggest that, so far, Tagging is still the
most active site?

Thanks

Graeme

PS & I should add that I am finding the Community site to be quite good,
although there are still a number of hiccups that need fixing.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

You're using the wrong metric.  The standard for a proposal, which purports
to change tagging standards that affect *the entire community*, should be
to advertise it as widely as possible.  With the new forums picking up
interest and activity, it is entirely appropriate to say to a proposer
"...and please also post a notice on the forum" to ensure maximum
visibility and participation.  The new forums are attracting a global
audience, rather than the few regional enclaves hosted on the old forums.
And, with the new forum linked to your osm.org user account, it's neatly
tied into the existing OSM infrastructure and doesn't require special
software or accounts to access.

I don't view this as a "first step towards moving to the forums" that the
proposal author probably does -- I view it as a recognition that the forum
has attracted enough interest and maturity in its short existence that it's
appropriate to demand to proposal authors that they also make an
announcement post there.  Now, over time, if we find that interest has
waned in the new forums, or on the flip side, if the forums come to largely
supplant the mailing lists, we can easily make the decision later to
eliminate the cross-posting requirement and pick a winner if and when this
occurs.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 5:25 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 at 01:07, Cartographer10 via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> I hope that the current proposal will for everybody.
>>
>
> It possibly will be one day, but at the moment, no, I don't think that
> we're yet ready to say "You *have* to post there".
>
> I recently started a discussion to clarify some points on existing tags,
> before going into a full RFC / Proposal concerning them.
>
> Posted the same original message, then two further follow-up questions,
> here on Tagging, in Discourse & on the talk page of the three pages
> concerned.
>
> So far, there have been 23 responses to Tagging, the original message
> received one "like" in Discourse, & there's been a single response on one
> of the 3 talk pages.
>
> Possibly the subject under discussion is of no interest to the majority of
> people?, but those results would suggest that, so far, Tagging is still the
> most active site?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> PS & I should add that I am finding the Community site to be quite good,
> although there are still a number of hiccups that need fixing.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 14:51 2022-11-13, Brian M. Sperlongano đã viết:
You're using the wrong metric.  The standard for a proposal, which 
purports to change tagging standards that affect *the entire community*, 
should be to advertise it as widely as possible.  With the new forums 
picking up interest and activity, it is entirely appropriate to say to a 
proposer "...and please also post a notice on the forum" to ensure 
maximum visibility and participation.  The new forums are attracting a 
global audience, rather than the few regional enclaves hosted on the old 
forums.  And, with the new forum linked to your osm.org  
user account, it's neatly tied into the existing OSM infrastructure and 
doesn't require special software or accounts to access.


I also appreciate the accommodation in the proposal for people 
uncomfortable with one platform or another. Asking fellow mappers for 
help is healthy. In fact, some of the best proposals lately (by the 
elusive metric of consensus among voters) have been collaborations among 
multiple mappers. If a mapper needs help to spread the word, they should 
say so.


I don't view this as a "first step towards moving to the forums" that 
the proposal author probably does -- I view it as a recognition that the 
forum has attracted enough interest and maturity in its short existence 
that it's appropriate to demand to proposal authors that they also make 
an announcement post there.  Now, over time, if we find that interest 
has waned in the new forums, or on the flip side, if the forums come to 
largely supplant the mailing lists, we can easily make the decision 
later to eliminate the cross-posting requirement and pick a winner if 
and when this occurs.


And by that point, it won't really be picking a winner; it'll be a 
recognition that mappers will've voted with their feet.


But before we get that far, I recommend that the proposal's title be 
adjusted slightly. The current title implies that discussions would 
start "moving" to the new forums, which implies a loss of activity here. 
That's no longer on the table, so "Announce proposals to the new forum" 
would suffice.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Cartographer10 via Tagging]

Thanks for the reminder. I indeed forgot to update the title after i changed 
the proposal. Will do that soon.

> But before we get that far, I recommend that the proposal's title be adjusted 
> slightly. The current title implies that discussions would start "moving" to 
> the new forums, which implies a loss of activity here. That's no longer on 
> the table, so "Announce proposals to the new forum" would suffice.
>
> -- 
> m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Marc_marc]

Le 13.11.22 à 20:40, Cartographer10 via Tagging a écrit :

There are quite some people discouraged by the mailing list requirement


You regularly use this argument but it makes no sense.
So there would be people motivated enough to make a proposal but whose 
only blocking factor is to post 2 messages (rfc and vote) on the ml.
I think your solution is to impose a notification on the shadow forum 
(which is already allowed and solves nothing) and allow them to ask 
someone to post the announcement on the mailing list (which they are 
already allowed to do, no one needs a proposal to post on the list). so 
how is your proposal going to solve what you present as the main reason?


I have the impression that the unspoken problem is that the forum is 
little used and that the pro-forum people want to solve this by 
migrating people from the list to the forum including those who prefer 
the list, including premarketing since the tests mentioned here show 
that technically half of the basic requirements for email use don't work 
(including posting an rfc message with 2 tags for your convenience)




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Marc_marc]

Le 13.11.22 à 23:51, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :
The standard for a proposal, which purports to change tagging standards 
that affect *the entire community*, should be to advertise it as widely 
as possible.  


of course, and the current proposal is not needed to "to advertise it as 
widely as possible."


it is entirely appropriate to say to a proposer "...and please also post  
a notice on the forum" to ensure maximum visibility and participation.


the current proposal is not about advice


The new forums are attracting a global audience


here is the logical error: no the forum does not attract a global 
audience, it may one day, now it is in test, half of the things do not 
work and therefore let us leave time to have a functional forum 
(including by email) in stead of trying to an attempts of discussion 
where the current majority of the participants are not, with an aim of 
satisfying those which do not produce for the moment much content level 
proposal (because if it were the case, the forum would be already very 
used for the discussion of the proposals of these people).



with the new forum linked to your osm.org user account


empty argument, the mailinglist is already linked to my osm account 
email, given that you only sign up once for 10 years, such a big change 
to gain one click to sign up is absurd compared to the fragmentation of 
discussions this "too-early" proposal will cause



doesn't require special software


mailing need a email client (including in a browser)
forum need a browser (which probably needs to be recent, poorly usable 
on phone, unusable in command line, difficult to interface if you want 
to make personalized notifications, etc)
accessibility is certainly not in favour of the forums. (the blind 
person on the osm-fr mailing list was using email with his braille 
reader and not a forum)



pick a winner if and when this occurs.


This is a win-lose vision, whereas by giving the forum time to mature, 
there could be a merger of the 2 which would be win-win (and would 
render the current proposal useless as the same content would be 
accessible both by email and by a web interface, with unified instead

of fragmented discussions).
We can see it with the osm-fr experience: the immature forum has split 
the community, far from federating




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