[Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Cascafico Giovanni]

Hello ML!


in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
should go for craft.

For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
ham) and/or salami.

AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
   man_made=works
   product=meat

but if craft should be considered, can be
   craft=meat
   an accepted kv combination?

Is craft just whoever runs the business or the final processed product? Or both?

Other tagging alternatives?

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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Volker Schmidt]

I would add that in the case of a "prosciuttificio" (small factory that
produces raw cured ham) in many cases these processing plants buy the meat
and run only the curing process, which takes more than a year. They may
also have a shop or only resell.
So we are talking about a small very specialised meat-processing facility.
The official EU translation site https://iate.europa.eu/ translates
"prosciuttificio" (and "salumificio", which produces salami) with "ham
factory".
If the EU gives that as official translation, then this should be good
enough for OSM.

I would certainly not use "man_made", but "craft", a least for the smaller
ones. Hence I would suggest to start tagging them as "craft=ham_factory"
even though this is a new tag.

... and you should be grateful that the language of the OSM DB is not
French, because in that case it would be "craft=
établissement_de_production_de_jambons"
:-)

Maybe a more generic approach could be
craft=meat_curing
product=ham

Volker




On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 09:44, Cascafico Giovanni  wrote:

> Hello ML!
>
>
> in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
> artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
> milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
> Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
> should go for craft.
>
> For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
> pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
> ham) and/or salami.
>
> AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
>man_made=works
>product=meat
>
> but if craft should be considered, can be
>craft=meat
>an accepted kv combination?
>
> Is craft just whoever runs the business or the final processed product? Or
> both?
>
> Other tagging alternatives?
>
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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 2. Dez. 2019 um 09:44 Uhr schrieb Cascafico Giovanni <
cascaf...@gmail.com>:

> Hello ML!
>
>
> in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
> artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
> milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
> Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
> should go for craft.
>


+1



> For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
> pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
> ham) and/or salami.
>
> AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
>man_made=works
>product=meat
>


not sure about "product", in Italian these would not be called "meat" but
"salumi" (maybe "cold cuts"), and the people producing cold cuts would not
be the same (usually) as the butchers that prepare meat (e.g. in Italy or
AFAIK in France, while in Germany both is done by butchers, not sure about
Britain). Maybe product=cold_cuts would suit better, as this is not about
"raw meat" (which would need cooking) but about a meat product ready to eat.



>
> but if craft should be considered, can be
>craft=meat
>an accepted kv combination?
>


for the "craft" value I would go by the profession, not the product. It
could still make sense to have a subtag for the kind of product, e.g.
product=salami;raw_ham or bresaola, mortadella, roast beef, etc.
(especially if they only produce very few different types and this is not
changing significantly over time).
Maybe the native speakers can provide a suitable term for the profession
(I've found the French term charcutier used in English, which may be an
indice that they do not distinguish either).

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Warin]

On 02/12/19 20:47, Volker Schmidt wrote:
I would add that in the case of a "prosciuttificio" (small factory 
that produces raw cured ham) in many cases these processing plants buy 
the meat and run only the curing process, which takes more than a 
year. They may also have a shop or only resell.

So we are talking about a small very specialised meat-processing facility.
The official EU translation site https://iate.europa.eu/ translates 
"prosciuttificio" (and "salumificio", which produces salami) with "ham 
factory".
If the EU gives that as official translation, then this should be good 
enough for OSM.


I would certainly not use "man_made", but "craft", a least for the 
smaller ones. Hence I would suggest to start tagging them as 
"craft=ham_factory"

even though this is a new tag.


Umm the word factory in there is not great, I'd not associate craft with 
factory.


How about craft=ham_processor?
And that could be sub tagged with ham_process=prosciutto?



... and you should be grateful that the language of the OSM DB is not 
French, because in that case it would be "craft=

établissement_de_production_de_jambons"
:-)

Maybe a more generic approach could be
craft=meat_curing
product=ham


I'd be more specific with product=prosciutto.

But I do prefer 'craft=meat_curing' compared to 
'craft=ham_factory/processor' as:


it can be applied to more things like jerky.

it is more specific than ham_processor/factory (this could be cooking, 
salting, slicing and packing)




Volker




On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 09:44, Cascafico Giovanni > wrote:


Hello ML!


in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
should go for craft.

For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
ham) and/or salami.

AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
   man_made=works
   product=meat

but if craft should be considered, can be
   craft=meat
   an accepted kv combination?



I'd think 'meat' is more of a 'produce' than a 'product'?



Is craft just whoever runs the business or the final processed
product? Or both?

Other tagging alternatives?

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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Dec 2019, at 11:28, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'd be more specific with product=prosciutto.


prosciutto just means ham, a coarse distinction would be cooked prosciutto and 
dried (salted) raw prosciutto (prosciutto cotto and prosciutto crudo), which 
also implies very different preparation.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Volker Schmidt]

Martin, don't overdo this.
We don't map cafè espresso, cafè espresso macchiato, macchiatone,
cappuccino, americano 
:-)
Many of these prosciuttifici produce raw cured ham and smoked raw cured ham
and some types of salami.
If you want you can put that in a list:
produce=A;B;C


On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 14:39, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 2. Dec 2019, at 11:28, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'd be more specific with product=prosciutto.
>
>
> prosciutto just means ham, a coarse distinction would be cooked prosciutto
> and dried (salted) raw prosciutto (prosciutto cotto and prosciutto crudo),
> which also implies very different preparation.
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Dec 2019, at 19:02, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Martin, don't overdo this.
> We don't map cafè espresso, cafè espresso macchiato, macchiatone, cappuccino, 
> americano 
> :-)
> Many of these prosciuttifici produce raw cured ham and smoked raw cured ham 
> and some types of salami.
> If you want you can put that in a list:
> produce=A;B;C


yes, I completely agree we shouldn’t map all the varieties of prepared meat, 
but the main differences in the production process might merit distinction, 
like preparation of cured ham/meat vs. cooked ham, as well as the presence of a 
smoke facility could be interesting topics for subtags and useful outside of 
Italy as well (I guess cooked ham doesn’t have to mature, while producing cured 
ham will imply storage space for maturation).


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] craft VS man_made

[Warin]

On 03/12/19 07:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 2. Dec 2019, at 19:02, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

Martin, don't overdo this.
We don't map cafè espresso, cafè espresso macchiato, macchiatone, cappuccino, 
americano 
:-)
Many of these prosciuttifici produce raw cured ham and smoked raw cured ham and 
some types of salami.
If you want you can put that in a list:
produce=A;B;C


yes, I completely agree we shouldn’t map all the varieties of prepared meat, 
but the main differences in the production process might merit distinction, 
like preparation of cured ham/meat vs. cooked ham, as well as the presence of a 
smoke facility could be interesting topics for subtags and useful outside of 
Italy as well (I guess cooked ham doesn’t have to mature, while producing cured 
ham will imply storage space for maturation).


I'm mixed on this but???

product=processed_meat (rather than =meat witch could be raw and therefore 
produce)

meat=beef/chicken/pig(or ham?)/turkey/venison/crocodile/kangaroo/emu/*

process=cooked/baked/microwaved/smoked/salted/*



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